SerWolfe
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A blogger took these pics at 3 am of a med resident sleeping
The blogger added fuel to the fire by writing, “doctors are obliged to do their work”
Mexican doctor Juan Carlos was quick to respond in defense of the med student with the hashtag #YoTambienMeDormi “I’ve also fall
It didn’t take long for many other doctors to post their own shameless sleeping photos…
“We are people not machines”
Saucy sauce: http://www.earthporm.com/med-resident-caught-sleeping/
LuciferFCS
F**k anyone giving them crap about sleeping, they work harder than most people, and do it smiling the whole time. Props to them
MiloCoatedBanana
My gf works at a provincial hospital and sometimes she goes 36 hours with just a few minutes of sleep. Fuck that blogger.
illplopmynardsinyourpuss
Sleeping at work is almost better than sleeping at home. It's like I'm taking something back.
thegoddamnbaman
They're not supposed to sleep?? In military hospitals, we had sleep rooms for the doctors working those shifts...they were expected (1/2)
thegoddamnbaman
To sleep whenever they found time.
pentameter
The reason that residents have to work so much is so the attending physicians don't. Without residents the hospital falls apart.
Pokemyplug
Anyone who bashes Doctors and workers in other intensive jobs (the list is long), instantly earns my ire. It is both selfish and moronic.
dogsandfish
ire. nice.
PRESIDENTOFAMERICA
MY DOCTOR IS A SAINT
Sweetbabybladefoot
As an emt that works 3rd shift in the ER, I can verify that the work never ends. Especially for doctors. Let them sleep, they are exhausted
sdcSpade
Doctors nowadays are pathetic! I've been awake for 72 hours and I'm fialb vngtklagfrvl qib iqtgibgsjkbgewkat wtzwhzhjuwete
meinkramp
Fuck that blogger man seriously
Renowned1k90
They have warning systems for patients that go off really loudly if shit goes down for a reason people.
Andreanne
Plus nurses and assisting staff. They dot need a fucking Dr for each and everyone at every time. There's not 1000ppl needing them NOW.
jnange
I'm finishing up my 2nd year of surgical residency, I cannot express how happy i am to not have to take 24 hr call every 3rd day anymore
Chompee
Why do they do it like that? Is it some sort of emergency training endurance?
jnange
Part of it is endurance, it's amazing how much sharper you become over time, the other part is experience, the more you work the more
jnange
Patients you see, the more you learn in a compressed period of time
jnange
Which is part of the argument against the 80 hr work week, you don't see enough patients by the end of residency to be ok to graduate
LovebatisdrivingmeMAD
Arg! My wife (OBGYN resident) has 3 24s this week. Oh yeah, and we have $300k worth of debt @ 7.5% and she makes roughly $11 an hour.
Mykronoid
I would rather a Dr took a nap when they had a chance rather than hoping they don't make fatal mistakes after being awake for 20hrs!
Mykronoid
Also, I've been awake for 24+hrs numerous times (insomnia) and it's after those nights things like washing my face with toothpaste happen..
ObiWanShalomi
"Aah what a refreshing smell WAIT"
AsbestosXposure
As an insomniac, yes.
ZaeMillion
My fiancee gets very little time to herself. And she still loves every second of seeing others get better. Fuck this blogger in particular.
Adavardes
Wait, people dehumanize other people and command unrealistic expectations in service to their own selfish needs? NO WAY MAN. T_T
stiggypa
You're not allowed to criticize med residents sleeping unless you also work 80 hours a week.
Artoris
I've worked easily 80 hours in a week. I would rather they sleep during down time, than be working over me when they should have slept.
Broctor
I've worked 136 hours a week... sleep was more like commatose state!!, once I had to reheat my meal 7 times because i fell asleep
tinyandcute123
Wow, take care of yourself please!
Kiwi31415
I've fallen asleep in an ambulance on the way to a job. With the sirens going. (no I wasn't driving).
ifightfirewithmyfists
I have to, and I wasn't driving either
nastysputnik
Acceptable response: http://imgur.com/H2Qhkme
Broctor
we don't get luch breaks ,(._., )
DrCatDO
Bro. +1 for your name. Do you were your surgical cap backwards?
Broctor
Actually I have done it just for the giggles.. I ended looking like a caucasian aunt Jemima.
DrCatDO
Did you leave your patient a stack of pancakes in the PACU?
Broctor
should have, but sadly the patient went into a 3 days fast because the surgery was for bowel perforation.
nastysputnik
As a military cop, neither do I. But if people catch me doing nothing, it's my go to excuse.
AgentTempest
These photos look fake, almost like they've been doctored in some way
batmandownunder
Na man they look fin.... oh you son of a bitch well done
odeezy48
You.....
HawasKaPujari
I like
fauxvol
As an underslept med student, I was about to yell at you. Took me a minute to get it. Have some fake Internet points.
Lovethesmelloftoastedsourdoughbread
Funny in grrrrrr sort of way
LadyNetrex
Hue hue hue.
antidentite22
Get out
smjzjess
http://media1.giphy.com/media/v9rfTQBNqdsSA/giphy.gif
Nepeta33
you need more points.
KatieSigma
ha
zeeshanjafri
...I don't get it :(
Epochpilot
http://imgur.com/2RQ78Ua
canijosaurio
Are real. Bet you can't survive a shift in ER.
ChelseaMerritt
IT WAS A JOKE.... dumb dumb dumb. get it they were DOCTORED.......
bwk2421
GraphWithTheJokeGoingOverABaldGuy'sHead.gif
ThatOnePolarBearOnTheLeft
MsFunnyBunny
Badum-tss!
jalenp69
Ayy
DicksTakeDickpicsWithSelfieSticks
that was a long shot. well done!
aRepost
"Moderate sleep deprivation produces impairments in cognitive & motor performance equivalent to legally prescribed levels of alcohol
pandorafalters
Legally prescribed alcohol intoxication? Where can I find a doctor to write THAT scrip?
aRepost
intoxication" - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1739867/
sixtyfortysoo
If rather a Dr treat me after a 20 min power nap than tired and not thinking atraight
beejabah
well said
Tritan2
Nail on the head. In parts of Europe they let Air Traffic Controllers take 20 minute naps because it sharpens them on the radar.
GoALittleCrazy
As a past and future patient, I ALWAYS prefer well-rested medical staff.
oddmog
Hmm, this might be a case of self advocacy here. Wouldn't happen to be Doctor yourself? Seriously though the hours are just plain silly.
wipethatfaceoffyourheadbitch
your spelling tells me you might benefit from a power nap.
Altswang
Cut him some slack Jim he's a doctor not a miracle worker God damnit
Goodnewwseveryone
doctors don't need to spell all that well, because nobody can read their handwriting anyway!
Natsumori
To be fair a is right next to s on the keyboard. Seems like a finger slip instead of ignorance.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Glumerlink
if med school wasn't so expensive and was more readily available maybe we could get around this
GrapeBread
You can get loans for med school and very reasonably pay them off with a MD's salary. The issue is hospitals aren't accepting more residents
zytz
How much do you think doctors make? Many I know are still paying of med school well into their forties.
Glumerlink
you can pay them off on an MD's salary...4+ years after you graduate
imgurrapist
Thats better than the rest of the population.
stacysmom
this. thank you.
IMakeLotsOfReferencesAndRemakes
Gosh golly gee willikers if only there was a way...
baconsmellsreallygood
Would you like to be handed off from one doctor to another who is not caught up to speed 100% on your condition? Bc of a shift change?
ArcaneM37
Yes.
Turbogoat
Nothing like an ill-informed blogger making snap judgements to illustrate just how hard these hospital workers work.
underlord2132
Id rather they fall asleep like this instead of when they are arm deep in my organs.
jpegstohelenkeller
Let the freakin' doctors and med students sleep! They doctor better that way.
chestnut250
Heck yeah! If somebody is going to be cutting me open I want that person WELL RESTED, not exhausted and not thinking straight!
ImgurianSlacker
Before my step mom signs a consent for operation, she asks "were you on call last night, and did you fight with hour wife?" Reasonable to me
FrankHorigan
I think they look like precious angels when they sleep.
brodenf
I bet some doctor told you your brain works better after a full night's sleep!
iLoveItWhenMyFingersSmellLikePussy
Nah.. just stuff 'em with stims!
maddabber
https://youtu.be/blt0AeWmTOc
quietlysinister
"You need to work for 24hrs/7days and also never ever make any mistakes ever or I'll sue your lazy asses also please help me I'm sick"
extasis
Nailed it! Similar story for sleep-deprived pilots (Malcolm Gladwell, Outliers)
htmwc
People have become worryingly entitled with doctors and nurses. Gotta show us some love because we give up a lot for what we do
Sugarcrotch
My Nana and mother were both nurses and gave up a lot of family time to take care of others. But now they are retired so I can see them 1/2
Sugarcrotch
All the time now. :D 2/2
DizzyNosferatu
The US has the most expensive healthcare in the world by far, but we rank low in quality compared to other developed nations. We need change
zytz
There are so many factors that a statement like this doesn't take into account
iShouldNOThavedonethat
Thank you for mentioning nurses. We get the short end quite often.
odraencoded
You are wrong. Everyone has become worryingly entitled. They think people are lazy and they deserve better. Even I think so.
SheWolf04
High fives!
Horiii
Besides, isn't it a sign that you work hard?
Goodnewwseveryone
Doctors literally go out of their way to deal with the patient's problems. Respect to all doctors/nurses out there!
lizzieskwrl
For real. They're not machines. Tired doctors make more mistakes. Let them have a goddamn nap.
PraiseMelora
Yes. There is also a big difference between not doing your work, and having no work to do. If it's down time on a 24hr shift, fucking nap
GrapeBread
Why put a doc on a 24 hour shift I. The first place?
zytz
Cost, continuity of care, better outcomes for patients. Take your pick
NoobOfEngland
I would be way too scared to fall asleep with a baby in my arms... But yeah
ladyjigglebutt
For the first month and a half of my baby's life she would freak out if I put her down. I slept with her in my arms a lot.
onecattwocatbigcatsmallcat
many parents do that so they can get some sleep and babies can get some sleep too.
TheodoreWitchfucker
does a 1,5 year old count as a baby? because I once woke up with one, even though I had fallen asleep without one O_O
Briannwilliams
Crazy night?
CrowDeMorcerf
You were in a 2 years coma and gave birth in the start of it?
TheodoreWitchfucker
truth: napped on a couch at my then girlfriends, and her kid climbed to sleep next to me/on me/with me.
TheodoreWitchfucker
also apparently got the ability to give birth as a male :p
CrowDeMorcerf
3 years coma. Sex change operation in the first half.
SerWolfe
I think that particular lady was posing for the photo.
Natsumori
There is actually a hospital hotel conjoined with my local hospital. I think that's great!
gooferman609
I find it funny that a blogger criticizes some one who actually works
htmwc
Better send them to the burn unit! Which'll be full of sleeping doctors! Wahey
Cheomesh
I run a blog and actually work for a living >.>
LadyNetrex
Indeed.
Thelandfill
Agree. Have my Upvote
TooLazyToDoSomethingElse
Bloggers are just people just weren't good enough to be reporters
HavingABadDay
Really, making a good, informed and nice to look at blog post can take hours work. A different job from doctors, but a job for som
HavingABadDay
Damn the keyboard of my phone. > Job for some people nonetheless.
kidinthesixties
Daaaaaaamn
becaroo
shots fired.
Pharya
Implying that blogging and working are mutually exclusive? You do realise that most normal people have like 16 hours of non-work time a day?
RanaAurora
I used to make my money blogging. It can be an actual job. :-) Stressing "can".
BlubbaFett
What did you blog about?
RanaAurora
Parenting. Pregnancy, babies, birth, breastfeeding, car seats... occasionally something outside of that (Nestle Boycotting).
BlubbaFett
I'm a famous profiler and from this information I can conclude that you are a mother that dislikes chocolate, or hates the French
RanaAurora
Neither! In fact, I adore chocolate and the French! Death to those who dislike chocolate.
bigfloppydonkydong
Other bloggers
RanaAurora
LOL! You'd be amazed how many bloggers DO make their blogs solely about shit-talking other bloggers. It's like high school.
BlubbaFett
That, is some inception shit right there
MrInvisibo
I can't do this all on my own, yes I know that I'm no superman.
youareinelysium
Any doctor will tell that scrubs is the most realistic medical show that has been on TV
Capsicle
oooooooEEEEEEEEOOOOOOEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOO
WilyDeject
Nailed it.
nocicept
Lazlo Bane. Always good.
SaucyDisses
Bbbbeeeeeuuuubeeeeeeeeeeuuuuuuuu
BriefEdition
http://imgur.com/yG1kKER
MosesSupposesHisToesesAreRosesButMosesSupposesErroneously
I see what you did there
bobwehadababyeetsaboy
(I'm no superman)
ayd3nm
It bugged me to
dancealittlestranger
I started watching scrubs about a month ago! Love it!
IAmNerdHearMeRoar
I finally just started that show. I love it.
TheKingofallBirthdays
you're such a scrub
Seven7greens
I really need to rewatch Scrubs.
allieboballie8
I'm watching scrubs for the first time (just started season 3). I love it!
SomethingCleverBand
I just got through all 8 seasons. (Yes, 8)
zstorm6
Im on my 5th run through of it. S4 right now.
alienrobotzombiebear
Technically season nine is a shitty spin-off. So we don't even have to pretend it exists.
SomethingCleverBand
Pretend that what exists?
AintNothinButAPoopbutt
So, wait. People want doctors to be performing life-saving work while running on 4 hours of sleep? Who honestly thinks that's a good idea?!
questionableanswers
Idiots
AIIOOOCAPTAINJACK
Nobody, but to provide the necessary duty of care you need a certain amount of doctors on the floor.. exhausted or not
Broctor
politicians!!!!
DrCatDO
No, doctor shortage and people overusing the healthcare system.
Broctor
I'm a Doctor, I speak English, Spanish and French, I'm trained in medical ultrasound and early stage detection for breast cancer. Hire me!
DrCatDO
French? No wonder you can't get a job!
KarlNapf
No car mechanic /everybody else could do a proper job under these conditions.
thisisntevenmyfinalname
What gives anyone the right to tell someone they are not allowed to sleep when they have worked hard?
TheLastBillyBumbler
You obviously haven't met Society. Qhuinn, meet Society.
thisisntevenmyfinalname
I like to pretend that I haven't sometimes...
akiba22
In Japan, sleeping on the job after hours of work shows them you're working hard enough that you likely passed out from exhaustion.
TheMonsterWithinYou
Douche bags who think they know it all and have no idea how much doctors actually do.
lily10110
I've watched enough Scrubs to know doctors need to sleep.
ViolentVibrator
A blogger.. Who else would be that much of a fucktard
Pharya
"All bloggers are fucktards" -ViolentVibrator
Zeimescrow
Bloggers truly are pieces of shit
Halogrunt1234
_This_ blogger is a peice of shit. Bloggers just post stuff on the internet, and come from all backgrounds and walks of life
Cheomesh
But I blog about miniatures and GURPS D:
OliverClothesoff70
Somebody with a shift that stops at 8 hours.
andyfish727
Or a slave driver who just wants the bank the docs make off of patients who are either really rich or poor as fuck.
Lobananaforscale
My shift stops at 8 hours and I very much appreciate what doctors do. Don't lump them with the rest of us.
OliverClothesoff70
I wasn't lumping you in. I was saying I bet any blogger who gripes about a sleeping doc/med student works a fixed qty of hours per shift.
Lobananaforscale
The details are appreciated.
loshea
I think the entire notion of making doctors work 24 hours shifts is completely fucking retarded and dangerous.
IPutAHexOnYou4c6f7665206d65
as a doctor's wife, this puts strain on doctors on SO many levels, it's ridiculous.
icypants
Oh you mean this person has skills which hold the power of life and death? Better use him so hes exhausted and up the chance of fatal error!
longtimelurker722
I agree. They've done studies that show the least amount of mistakes are made during 24 hrs compared to 12, 16 or 20 hr shifts. crazy!
[deleted]
[deleted]
loshea
Then why stop at 24 hour shifts? Why not make doctors work 48 hour shifts? 72 hour shifts?
[deleted]
[deleted]
loshea
Thank you. It's nice to be recognized for one's achievements.
eromitlab
It's one of those things where I don't even know how it ever became a thing or why it's just accepted as a necessary thing.
AwkwardBiblophile
The system also makes doctors feel terrible, by making them wonder if they either risk patients by seeing fewer, or by being sleep deprived.
BilldeTurlock
I agree, but it sure does weed out the non-dedicated!
magneticmagic3
Absolutely, but with some procedures you actually have to be present and preparing for up to that long.
Reelie
There are so many backwards things in the medical field. Some instances they are nicer, others they are hell on us. But we're not machines.
bigchiefmooseknuckle
We only have one doc and he has office 9-5 and is on call 24 hrs a day. He gets about ten days off per year.
urseppos
You wouldn't know the half of it.
skananigans
Well the guy who invented the practice was a cocaine addict.
KitFoxx
I agree, and I have a feeling the op who shamed the med student was ignorant of that. >_>
sneakolai
I've been told people "choose" this option. Nnnnnnnot sure about that. But if it was a choice? Legislators: MAKE IT NOT AN AVAILABLE CHOICE
NiteRhys
Whaaaat? O.o
mjamrock
its needed though man. surgeons especially.
HugItChuckItFootball
Resident friend was working 80hr weeks not long after he started.
MrFish49
If I remember what the EMT said right the errors would actually increase with shorter shifts because of the new doctors being unfamiliar 1/2
MrFish49
With the patients specific needs and details that can slip through the cracks when they swap doctors out. 2/2
FenixVale
I have a good friend whom is a tech and she works pretty much 24/7 either in the hospital, or on call to go back. She left at 10pm 1/2
FenixVale
today and went back at 1am, was there till 6am, and had her next work shift there at 7am. Its completely insane!
OprahIsBigFoot
Why do you think doctors use cocaine or abuse other drugs?
indifferentialdiagnosis
Most doctors abuse for the same reasons everyone else does, we just have easier access and think we have more willpower to deal with it.
flymps
That might be a bit too generalising I think...
DavidTemper
Maybe present doctors refuse to change the long shifts by thinking "We did them, and new residents will have it no easier"
loshea
I think that's half of it. It's an initiation. Little better than hazing, really. "Nut up. We did it. You can too!"
Marsmallowmancer
Seriously, I can't think of a lot of occupations that it would be WORSE to have such long shifts.
mkaybhan
Nowadays most hospitals are under liability if residents stay longer than 12-14 hrs and some require u must leave for at least 10 hrs
indifferentialdiagnosis
ACGME has very specific rules that apply to all US programs. Cap of 24+6 hours, 80hr/wk, 1 24 hour block/wk off, 10hr min between shifts.
mrsfunsocks
Holla
SheWolf04
Oh, man. Only 24 hours? I wish! More like 30.
slushietee14
med student here, yeah for people on the outside it sucks and for docs its meh but it comes with the territory and is an issue of the system
JohnnyricoMC
Airline pilots MUST get 8 full hours of sleep according to regulations. Why don't doctors and nurses get the same treatment?
zytz
Because you can't practice medicine on a schedule like you can fly planes on a schedule. Shit happens a lot of times, and you need to (1/2)
zytz
Step up and stay longer to save a life that YOU are responsible for. You can't say, sorry you're coding, but I'm going home now. 2/2
GunArm
I hate people that dumbly blame things on "Obamacare", but it really REALLY hasn't helped with this particular issue.
loshea
There it is. I knew there'd be one. - "It's Obummer's fault!"
diedtryin
Mocking any one for doing there job retarded. Doesnt matter if they are a doctor, janitor, fast food worker, cop, bus driver, etc
loshea
Who's mocking? I'm trying to defend doctors against what is obviously a brutal and demeaning system.
diedtryin
I didn't say you were mocking them. I agree with what you said but i dont feel it should be limited to just doctors.
Broctor
this is in México, and being a Doctor myself , let me highlight that here, the shifts are at least 36 hours or even longer..1/2
Broctor
commonly the chief"ask you"to stay in a mandatory punishment shift that can turn those 36 hr into 72 hr or longer despite being forbiden 2/2
weliveinaspaceshipdear
It's a battle between the dangers of sleep deprivation and the fact that a chart is never a memory so some knowledge will always be lost.
Jehovasthickness
I'd rather have an operation with a doctor who isn't half dead inside.
RudePoots
Studies have shown surgeons that are sleep deprived perform the same as their non-sleep deprived colleagues.
bexyrex
And have a better ability to function in terms of attention span when sleep deprived. Granted this is also a small portion of the pop. (2)
bexyrex
GRANTED if that's true the surgeon who even make it to being surgeons probably have a significantly lower sleep drive (1)
bud467
where I work no one is allowed to work more than 16 hour shifts. a person died after they worked a 24 hour and fell asleep in their car.
blkbox
I agree. I thought they were qualified to understand the negative effects of sleep deprivation, of all people.
zytz
They are. However years of data and research into patient outcomes is heavily in support of reducing handoffs
indifferentialdiagnosis
We are, and we weigh them against the risk of frequent handoffs of care. It turns out short shifts are more dangerous.
blkbox
Really? I a genuinely interested and surprised. Seems like it's the least worst situation then. I just hope you gusy get to rest.
Samael13
Shift changes are really bad for patient care. You have to give the incoming staff all of the information about the patients, what you've
Samael13
shift changes than anywhere else in the process, by far.
Samael13
everything, and you have to make sure you're not missing anything, and that nothing is being misunderstood. More mistakes happen during
dpidcoe
You know that feeling when you're halfway home from work and realize you forgot something?
BendOverHereItComesAgain
My stepfather is an ER doctor and is encouraged to catch some shut eye when the opportunity presents...
ChanelK
Amen. Respect to all the doctors n nurses out there saving lives!
56legmuscles
so the problem with shortening shifts is that you have to "handoff" your patient, which is dangerous for the patient, errors of communicatio
genjika
especially since one slip up can cost a person it's life. And then the doctor is to blame that HAS to work 24 hour shifts. Not fair
BitchButcher
No truck driver is allowed to work as much time without pause as a doctor. Staying alive > just in time delivery
loshea
Great. Now I've got that Bee-Gees song stuck in my head. Soooo.... thanks for that. ;)
RiverBear
My mom is an MD & they for years used to make residents work 48-72 hrs in a row. They only stopped cuz they were getting sued over mistakes.
ThisPlaceLooksLikeCalifornia
That and 36+ hour watch cycles in combat zones are equally stupid. These people need maximum attentiveness to save lives!
kisselface
Luckily they've been passing laws against anything longer than 24 hour shifts, and now if you're on for 24 hours they have to give you 1/2
kisselface
at least 24 hours off. 2/2
AIIOOOCAPTAINJACK
Yes because they always folow the law and this will definitely happen...
MmmICanRelate
They do a lot of sketchy things with their shift numbers. There are laws already in effect that most teaching hospitals dont actually follow
SirMills
So unless you can ensure it, no point in having laws at all, right?
AIIOOOCAPTAINJACK
No but the sentiment of "lucky" isn't right when the laws are just ignored and junior doctors still work 36hr + shifts
RudePoots
Residencies lose funding/accreditation if they do not follow the law. The work hour restrictions are not for attending physicians (in US).
AIIOOOCAPTAINJACK
Yeah I'm not speaking about the US here
PleasantPeasantPheasant
24 hours is still too long imo, it's a job that requires full concentration, 12 should be an absolute maximum.
Clockworkdancerobot
There is also the lack of enough doctors, the costs of hiring more doctors... those likely play a part in this too.
cheesedogs
Also, Don't forget often there are no set limits to the number of patients under a docs care. So that 12 hour shift can be 30+ patients
ROBOT120807
But hiring more doctors costs money.
HowsMyDictate
There's a finite number of physicians (which happens to be a major shortage). Supply and demand
Clockworkdancerobot
A relative was able to trim 6 months off his residency by going with a program designed to promote more General Practitioners.
loshea
Instead of making each doctor work two 24 shifts per week, make them work four 12 hour shifts. Same # of doctors, hours, and payroll.
zytz
Payroll isn't the same, because benefits are given to each provider. Additionally, loads of data supports that more handoffs = more danger
ROBOT120807
To be honest I have no idea why they do it the way they do. Completely fucktarded.
Space2place
That might seem good but either way if they are to be on-call, they may never hv an ideal work/life balance anyway. Poorly designed system.
onemustimaginesisyphushappy
Medical students have to work 28 hours on normal rotations. Unless you're going into orthopedics, then you have to work 36-40 hour shifts.
ieightkate
dude, where do you go to medical school? pretty sure the limits for medical student shifts are way under 28 hours.
onemustimaginesisyphushappy
The students who want to go into ortho do it without being 'forced'. But every student does it and you get bad evals if you don't. So...
RudePoots
There are no work hour restrictions for medical students, it is up to each individual institution.
ieightkate
interesting, that's not what my medical school told us when they made us log our hours for a month to show we weren't going over the limits.
IHateApostrophes
LCME, the organization that accredits US medical schools limits it to 16 hours. Any school doing more than that is in violation.
RudePoots
LCME does not actually have any work hour restrictions for medical students. It is up to each individual institution.
IHateApostrophes
Welp, I guess I was wrong. The 16 hour thing is set by my school. I always thought it was LCME.
indifferentialdiagnosis
As far as I know, the LCME does not limit to 16 hours. Their guidelines are soft and just specify "less than the residents" essentially.
onemustimaginesisyphushappy
Can you show me a document that says this? We have multiple rotations (OBGYN, Surgery, Medicine, Pediatrics) where we have to do (1/2)
onemustimaginesisyphushappy
4-5 28hr calls per month with no designated sleep time. (2/2)
[deleted]
[deleted]
indifferentialdiagnosis
This is patently untrue in US allopathic programs.
onemustimaginesisyphushappy
Wrong. I go to one of the biggest US allopathic programs in the country.
indifferentialdiagnosis
If your allopathic program wants to continue being one, they should probably follow ACGME and LCME guidelines then. (1/2)
onemustimaginesisyphushappy
Show me the guidelines and I'll gladly bring it up with them.
indifferentialdiagnosis
As a surgical resident who does this all the time, you are incorrect. The risk of frequent transfers greatly outweighs exhaustion.
PotatoHamer
To the extend that we need to have 24 hour shifts?
ToasterDent
By that logic, each doctor should work one unending shift. The transfer risk is because of bad planning and handoff procedures, a failure of the system to figure out how to do handoffs safely that will eventually occur (unless your doctor can never leave you until you are discharged).
matrixcakes
I agree, as someone who worked in records, there's a lot of info that needs to be passed along each shift, and not just stuff in the...
matrixcakes
Chart. The longer you're with a pt, the better you understand their needs.
MasterOfEntropy
Bullshit. In Europe shifts are MUCH shorter without problems. It's a combination of bad planning and machismo ("look how hardcore we are").
zytz
Europe is not the US. Try again
indifferentialdiagnosis
That is apples to oranges, their structure is different in a vast number of ways, and not without it's own faults. (1/2)
Seppyno
How is that apples to oranges? And if aspects of their system produces fewer medical errors, why not begin aligning ours more closely?
indifferentialdiagnosis
Because while you have fewer medical errors from exhaustion, you get many more from transition of care. Handing off care is dangerous.
loshea
Frequent? You think once every 12 hours is frequent?? Have you ever had major surgery?
indifferentialdiagnosis
I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I perform major surgeries most every day...
penelope30
For real, you just said you're a surgical resident! What a silly question!
WelcomeToThePunderdome
Totally agree with your point. Could have done without the r-word.
EulaliaSaxons
My brother and his wife used to do 36 hour shifts, if I recall correctly. It was absolutely insane hearing them speak when it was over
EulaliaSaxons
But then again, they got a day or two off right after, so there's that
TheNeckbeard
Agree 100%. My Father is a surgeon and was "on-call" for 72 hours straight (very common) and fell asleep at the urinal during a break.
greskeneveland
I have always felt that way too. The job is hard enough without adding sleep deprivation.
morgainn21
Seriously,a 31 hour shift is STUPID
loshea
How the fuck can it be legal to make someone get open heart surgery from someone who hasn't slept in 36 hours and just drank 5 RedBulls?
danjo
Well in some cases the surgeries can take 24+ hours, so then it makes sense to have the same person stay on.
indifferentialdiagnosis
This doesn't happen. Cap is 24 hours in the US by ACGME guidelines + 4 hours for administrative work only.
ProfessorDumbledore
Upper year residents and attendings do 24 hr call all the time. Plus rounding and notes. Easily puts you WAY over. Attdgs can do 48+ hr call
indifferentialdiagnosis
I'm an upper year surgical resident, I know what I can and can't do. 24+6 is the guideline, we are held to it, I average high 70's/wk
loshea
Most of the 136 comments I've received so far would seem to contradict your claim.
indifferentialdiagnosis
Then popular opinion is wrong. Current rules: https://www.acgme.org/acgmeweb/Portals/0/PDFs/dh-ComparisonTable2003v2011.pdf
diesekte
If you're in any type of surgery program it happens daily despite the rules
indifferentialdiagnosis
As it happens, I'm a PGY-3 general surgery resident. It doesn't happen daily. If we violate hours we file a report explaining why.
TribbleTime
For acgme. Thats for residents, not necessarily attending docs. And sometimes ppl lie about their hours.
indifferentialdiagnosis
It's true, though from personal experience it's rare for an attending to work straight through >24 hours. Not impossible tho.
greskeneveland
It shouldn't be. When I was a kid I was getting nose surgery and a needle bent and went through my eye from the inside of (1/2)
LifeIsLikeAPieceOfCheese
(2/2) my penis.
kiamuddess
I hope your parents sued.
aDogNamedJohn
I get accountability and all, but that phrase really needs to go the hell away. Instead try, "Take appropriate legal action"
kifithebobcat
It was most likely an accident.
greskeneveland
My head. I was already legally blind in the other one. Who's to say the mistake didn't happen because the doctor was exhausted?
ilander79
And then you went "mama i luuuv you" and made a shout out to your crew, right?
greskeneveland
(quick add: I can still see... They saved my eyesight but I cannot drive. It could have been much worse.)
CoopDH
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. That is all
merprincesspacifica
It's the same for firefighters, paramedics, caregivers, etc. I once had a 36 hour shift.
Annutty
well, as a truck driver, i guess im lucky i can only drive 11 hours at a time...but if i fall asleep even for a second, people die o.0
Kiwisavage
42 hours is my longest one. I really feel for EMT's, they have it far worse most days.
merprincesspacifica
Luckily my longest regular shift is only a 16. It really messes with your sleep schedule and you're the wacko zombie vampire friend.
McStooley
When I was a paramedic, I had to do a 72 hour shift once. That was.... Energy drinks didn't exist yet, and I can't drink coffee.
NigeBairen
Mormon?
secnd
I work 48 hrs straigt every time I go to work, I'm a paramedic
Fuckweasel
Thank you for doing what you do. I'd be dead if it weren't for you speedy EMS people, :)
merprincesspacifica
Yeah you've got it rough on most accounts
indifferentialdiagnosis
I'm a surgical resident. Give us some credit, it's this way because it's necessary. Exhaustion is bad, errors in transfer of care = worse.
AngryKittenLitter
I've never really thought of it that way... Thank you for that and all that you're signing up for!
JoeSaraza
A gas station attendant can't work more than 10hs (8 and 2 extra) cos it's dangerous... A doctor? 24hs is fine.... WTF
PikaCheck
Based on the hours and the requirements on your personal/family time, it's amazing that people still want to go into this field.
SALTTHEEARTH
There, take your 3802 upvotes. Not like we poor neutrals needed them! Jk here take another.
aGirlWithoutAname
My thoughts exactly! I dont want a sleep deprived Dr/Nurse poking and prodding at me!
kowalibear
So stupid
generaljiggles
About to start my intern year for surgical residency...
Goatflakes
Well support more and more affordable doctor's education.
SBegosh
Paying people to teach is expensive... Paying people with a skill in high demand is even more expensive. Education isn't free.
Goatflakes
No it isn't. I don't have any easy answers.
Goatflakes
OFC but if doctors are working 24 hour shifts there aren't enough doctors. Someone has to pay either way.
aflyingpope
a friend of mine is one of the TWO doctors working E.R. THATS 84 HOURS A WEEK, 48 hours shift. they got there sleeping spot and nurses know.
SpaceSpeed
Residency shifts can often be 36 hours... so stupid
Space2place
This may be why some begin to pee *coffee*...
ieightkate
this is not true. the most recent duty hour requirements limit shifts to 16 hours the first year and 24 hours after that.
lesliebananas
That's only in the US. Not every one is lucky
SirMills
Not in Canada, that's for certain.
whyyougottabesorude
maybe where you are... not in california
ieightkate
if you're talking about resident hours, there are ACGME rules that govern it, nationally. attendings are a different story.
GratefulUndead
24 hours of clinical duty + 6 hours of post-clinical wrap up/hand off = 30 hours is the longest you can work currently under ACGME rules.
ieightkate
day as an expectation. maybe i'm interpreting that wrong.
ieightkate
but my understanding is that the six hours is maximum, not a standard. like, maybe some days you stay hours to wrap up, but not every (1/2)
GratefulUndead
Yea! 30 hours is a max. The times I had a call night w/ few admits, I left at ~25 hours. If lots of admits, I would do H&P's up to the 30hrs
indifferentialdiagnosis
ACGME rules permit 24+4 hours for non-intern residents, cap of 80/wk averaged over a month, and mandatory 24 hour block of time off 1x/wk.
SirMills
In the US, at least.
diregamer
Jesus, at least tell me you get hourly pay!?
indifferentialdiagnosis
Hahaha I wish. No overtime pay.
[deleted]
[deleted]
indifferentialdiagnosis
I am a surgical resident, and we don't break duty hours regularly. The ACS and ACGME have come down hard on programs that do.
[deleted]
[deleted]
fauxki
When I went into labor, they had to wake a guy up at one am to deliver the baby and stitch me back up. He got to sleep again afterwards.
CompetentPlayer
Our surgery staff is on call. And woke up and called in if there is emergency surgery or c-section during the night
IHaveWayTooManyChildren
I went into labor with my last child and the doctor came in yawning and told me she was mad bc I woke her. She wouldn't stop bringing it up
fauxki
The next day the nice Wendy nurse came in and told me I got double the medication I was supposed to take and she was sooooo mad.
fauxki
That's just fucking dickish. The worst I got was when a nurse gave me to much pain killers and I started to trip fucking balls.
IHaveWayTooManyChildren
Like I wanted to wake up at 5 am, wake my mom to come watch the kids so I could push a baby out of my vagina w/ no pain meds. Fml
FancyYogaPants
F her! That is her job. My dr was there at 7 am with me and then delivered my son at 11.21pm. My dr was great. I felt bad for him.
DrCatDO
Just like patients get unreasonably cranky, so do doctors. Being chipper and happy to see you at 5 AM is not part of the job.
DrCatDO
I won't condone her rudeness, but I will say you should cut her some slack in the same way most doctors would with a cranky patient.
itiscalledaPUPPYyoutwat
To be fair, that was precisely his job. Be on call to be woken up. Alternative was him be awake doing nothing most of the night
fauxki
Exactly. He was assigned a thirty hour shift and was this little old man though. I still felt bad.
hawkeyewascheatedintheavengers
He probably was rather pleased he could help you out. That's why he comes to work
birdspy
"got to" I really hope that was just a poor choice of words, it makes me feel worse for the doctor:(
TopCommenter
I think they are using it in the context of "got straight back to", not "was allowed to". Or so I hope.
fauxki
I was the only person in labor. He was so sleepy, but the nurses handled pretty much everything except pulling out the baby and stitches.
Broctor
I've done this myself... sleept netx to the patient waiting for the propper time for the delivery, 1/2
fauxki
They had a really good setup and nice nurses do everything they could. The doctor was up for only an hour at most.
Broctor
my sleep is really light and I jump back to action at the sligthest sound.
nation543
THIS JUST IN FROM CNN! HUMANS NEED SLEEP!
induren
Eventually some doctor will kill another doctor, or a doctor's kid, or senator/kid, and then rules will change. It's how it works.
MuayThaiKitty
especially since you usually have to do another 24hr shift before your body has the time it needs to return to a normal sleep pattern
brynnelson
YES! 12 hours is almost pushing is. A person cannot really work that long and you expect them to work on PEOPLE?!
wombat588
As a doctor, 36*
Skiamac
Im "on call" as an EMT for 72hrs straight There have been 30hour periods where Ive slept for 1hr. Auto pilot takes over around the 15hr mark
TheForceRestrained
NONSENSE!!! everyone knows in medical school a magical fairy visits you and you never need to sleep again
loshea
I think I've heard of that fairy. She's called The Cocaine Fairy.
TheForceRestrained
It's not cocaine, it's fairy dust!
loshea
Potayto, potahdo
admshinysides
Its so backwards assed
SoraPonyBoyVersetti
Everyone just going to ignore the fact this comment has over 10,000 points....GOOD GOOGLY MOOGELY
loshea
And it's not even my first comment to break five figures.
ChickenandFishMakesAGreatDish
Always remember - the US medical industry is a business first
Mostlydeadpool
This. totally this. do you really want someone making life or death choices while sleep deprived?
Samael13
the patient to have the same people helping for as long as possible, so they'll be more intimately aware of your needs.
Samael13
Every time that there's a shift change, the risk to you, as the patient, increases. Charts can't tell the whole story, and it's better for
Samael13
The question is, do you want your entire medical care and all of the complicated interactions involved to be changing hands every 8 hours?
Mostlydeadpool
you know, that's the first decent explaination as to the long shifts for medical people I've ever heard. thank you.
fdisk
This practice is quickly changing and shifts are becoming more...human friendly.
UndoneDuncan
I think it's because shift changes are the most dangerous times for patients. Don't remember where I read that and I'm too lazy to Google.
mrbochiangles
My doctor friends say studies show shift changes as more dangerous. There must be a solution there but everyone's too tired to figure it out
Shockrates
Couldn't you just have shifts that overlap by a couple of hours?
reijigin
They often do, but handoffs are a huge opportunity for errors no matter what. Reducing them does more for patient safety than shorter shifts
JoyfulDay
I think there is a doctor shortage already. So like that increased in manpower wouldn't be possible logistically?
gifbears
Yes, and it would cost more to have shorter AND overlapping shifts, so even though it would treat employees like humans it's not happening
DeathlyHallows415
No that's easy and makes sense.
enzio64
2. are just businesses, often. Even most of the tax break hospitals aren't non-profit but rather not-for-profit. Yay capitalism.
Jashon
That makes sense. That, however, certainly does not mean it is something easy to do.
TattooedWife
I like you
CrazyHatLady
Haha, great response
enzio64
And also expensive to pay two people to be there for one person's job. People always seem to forget that at the highest levels, hospitals...
PeggingandTransFanboyExPlusMachina
It sounds easy but it really isn't from a staffing and funding standpoint.
sunnystayposi
My daughter's nicu nurses overlapped shifts and they'd all discuss patients during the change and ask questions. Parents could sit in on it.
sunnystayposi
To make sure no information was missing/mistaken.
zytz
There's a very very significant cost associated with doing something like that. And people have a hard enough time with med bills as is.
v1perz53
Even with hours of overlap you don't have the same knowledge of the patient as the doc there from start. But yea most places do overlap
17thspartan
Yea, but you're not thinking of this from the standpoint of "how do i maximize profits".
mydailydoseofantidepressantsisyourbooty
Most hospitals, at least the ones I've shadowed at, have overlapping ER and OR shifts.
LordNoodles
I always thought about that about any 24 hr job. Instead of 3 shifts, have four and overlap. May cost more, may be actually useful. Depends
RoyFuckingMustang
I work in maintainence, I know it's not the same but that would be utter chaos for us. I'd imagine it'd be roughly similar. Not to 1/2
RoyFuckingMustang
mention the cost would just be passed off to the patients, not the hospital. 2/2 ****maintenance.
LordNoodles
Relevant, I also know that our nurses and doctors are paid far better than some other countries. Nurse here makes $$$, nurse in Taiwan, (1)
SuperCaptainObvious
You see that's where we can't progress. If companies have to spend more money, they won't do it.
LordNoodles
My other comment went MIA, but it depends on what jobs too, doctors seem rare enough that this might not work but nurses and police could do
Ostinisdehsechz
it may even save lives.
thisparrotisnomore
The issue isn't shift change time itself but the handoff of a patient from one doctor to another who doesn't know them as well
DahPrincess
Nice point
Porkshorts
I've heard this too. But I wonder if it's because people suck at reporting off as oppose to just changing shift.
DicksTakeDickpicsWithSelfieSticks
old shift is tired and eager to go home (gets worse with longer shift), new one still needs to get a good perspective on the situation
indifferentialdiagnosis
This is not where the errors come from really. It's just not possible to hand off everything you know, you will forget something.
DicksTakeDickpicsWithSelfieSticks
The longer the shift the more there is to forget. New shift getting their own overview of the situation catches some info missed by hand off
indifferentialdiagnosis
This isn't really born out by the research. Outcomes were worse when shifts were shortened as a trial.
maxwilder
Exactly. It's hard to put literally everything on the chart, and harder to remember everything off all the charts when starting a shift.
wodkadetective
It generally is but hospitals with heads that earn 1,000,000/year can't hire another someone to figure out a system?
drunz
It is way more compilicated that meets the eye. Some operation can take upwards to 20 hours. Those are rare but transfer patience would 1/2
drunz
Be more dangerous then continuing to use the same sleep deprived doctor. All the information gathered in an operation needs to be retold.
weliveinaspaceshipdear
It's not about a system it's about transference of care. The knowledge of the patient. A chart is never a memory
GrapeBread
Which is why we need robot doctors
oddmog
Culture being what it is too. Doctors before them did 36hr+ shifts to get experience so they think that the bloodletting should go on.
GrapeBread
It's just like fraternity hazing.
DrKriegersClone
i.e. cycle of abuse
WhoTheFuckisGavin
In Belgium last year there was a student who had to run a 72h shift.
oddmog
I bet at the end of his shift he thought he was some kind of hummingbird. Not that unheard of though unfortunately.
SheWolf04
I hate hate hate this argument: "we suffered so you have to, too".
oddmog
Pretty much. The argument that you should know this stuff backwards even when deliriously sleep deprived doesn't hold that much water.
lockwoodx
If there were enough doctors to go around, it wouldn't be such an issue.
loshea
More people might become doctors if they knew they wouldn't have to work 36 hour shifts multiple times per week.
CongratulateMeCongratulateMe
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/jun/04/training-young-doctors-current-crisis/
reijigin
Balancing risk of employee exhaustion vs risk of errors in patient handoffs. When resident hours were capped, safety issues increased.
reijigin
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/25/us-resident-work-hour-limits-idUSBRE92O0XN20130325
johndavidrage
sadly for us doctors, studies have shown that reducing shift length does not reduce mistakes because handoff at the end of shift is awful
GiraffesAndCrystalMeth
my doctors at work STILL work 24-hr shifts every so often, and they volunteer to do so for overtime (some have been practicing for decades).
DianNaoChong
As with nurses, it cuts down on mistakes despite sleep deprivation. Handing someone off to someone new causes a lot of issues in heathcare.
drewgolas
My mom is a nurse and had to work 20+ hours in a shift. Fell asleep on her drive home. Luckily her accident was with a tree and she was safe
theresgarlicinthatnebula
This is exactly why I live near public transportation - so I'll never have to drive home after a shift. Worse case people think I'm a hobo.
jem282
Good guy tree took one so your mom could come home safe.
EulaliaSaxons
"luckily" "accident" and "tree" sound like they shouldn't be used in the same sentence together :(
drewgolas
She suffered some bruising on her ribs (collar bone?) due to the air bag but was otherwise uninjured
diregamer
Someone was looking out for your mom, glad to hear she was ok. This story could have been a thousand times worse.
icanc4
My sister-in-law did exactly the same (Miranda? Is that you?), but while she survived she wasn't uninjured.
drewgolas
Sorry, I'm not Miranda. But if I was I would probably say something like "nah, it's not Miranda, who are you talking about?"
thundercactus
AND. DANGEROUS.
BlackGalaxyRocker
I agree. I work in hospitals (rotating) and some have better shifts than others...I may have a 20hr one coming up :(
timemac
I get scared when I know my dad is up for 48 hours because he's in the ER
Meckmester
We need more doctors to divide up all the time in the day, only one problem, long, expensive and difficult education...
TheSqeeek
fufuwewe
yeah its not because there aren't enough doctors, its only because their employers are fucking retarded
loshea
Maybe more people would become doctors if they knew they wouldn't have to work 36 hour shifts twice or thrice a week.
fufuwewe
no they wouldn't, its a hard job with a high barrier to entry and most importantly a high chance of failure, nothing would help
loshea
Does every advanced first-world country require doctors to do these marathon shifts?
Seppyno
No. EU regulations prevent precisely the bullshit here. And surprise, data indicates there are fewer medical errors there per capita.
MyLifeisaComplicatedDrinkingGame
A bus driver cant be behind the wheel for more than like 8 hours on end, but the guy taking your heart out of your chest can be up 3x longer
BangBiscuitwithasideofBacon
The idea that a surgeon could have to perform a 2-6 hour surgery and still be on call after all of that exhaustion is terrifying.
USD1
I think this problem could be alleviated if more people nutted up and went to med school. Don't ask me to go though, I'm a dumbass.
loshea
Maybe more would go to med school if they didn't face the inevitability of having to work 36 hours shifts every 4th goddamn day.
USD1
I'd say the larger barrier of entry would be the expensive, grueling college work/cost, on top of the hours once they're in a job.
v1perz53
Problem is most medical errors happen when switching between doctors even considering long 24 hr shifts. No good solution.
Smighter9000
That is the way it works here in Mexico. They are expected to work endless hours and not cry about it. The person who took the pic is an ass
SoftFur
I'm sorry, I don't have an MD. Can you say that in laymen's terms?
littleladyluna
I do not want a sleep deprived doctor in charge of my health! Also they should be setting an example to their patients with self care.
MyNameIsJohnDaker
Tell that to a combat medic.
moansdey
The issue is the lack of doctors for the amount of patients.
loshea
Four 12 hours shifts each week instead of two 24 hour shifts. Same # of docs, same # of hours, same level of coverage.
FlyingTigerRose
I know - they are responsible for people
FlyingTigerRose
but could kill them because of a bad judgement call because of no sleep. Unbelievable.
crookednixon
I think the logic is that someday, they may have to be awake and working for that long in a crisis. So this gets them used to it.
loshea
Would you board a plane for a trans-oceanic flight knowing that the pilot was "training for a long endurance crisis"?
crookednixon
Depends, is this his/her annual training or is this just Tuesday to him/her? If it's something he/she does weekly, (or more) sure.
loshea
He's been awake for 36 hours, he's on his third intercontinental flight in a row with no breaks and no sleep, and there's no autopilot.
crookednixon
Again I ask, is this a regular thing? If so yes. If not, no.
GuildMasterJin
Would you like to become top comment? Because that is how you become top comment
Octonaughty
I just learnt neurosurgeons in our city are on 24hr call every other day. Cocaine use is rampant due to the need to be attentive instantly.
doogy
Hey it's possible that Medical Malpractice is actually the leading cause of Death in the United States. Google it.
TheBalls
Makes no sense.
d0mm3ltje
Hehe, try working with sheep ;))))))))))
kzrrz
Exactly! How would you risk people's health with doctors who haven't slept for two days? Give these guys a break.
V1K1NGFVNERAL
I've never understood this. I want their best 6 hours, then send them home for the day.
FishingForConversation
My friend is not a doctor, but an EMT. She also works 24 hour shifts. It does seem like a stupid idea
thegr8rambino
Ikr!!!!
cyno01
But statistics have shown less dangerous than more frequent shift changes... :-/
Kentopholus
HEY BOB!! You got a 24 hour shift building hand grenades.... And don't you dare miss a single pin!!
ghosthendrikson
I've never understood why we force them to work such long hours. Seems contradictory doesn't it?
TrustMeImAnEMT
Same for EMS, it's almost inhumane.
iDownvoteAllVerticalVideos
very few doctors actually work those hours. a normal ER doctor at a busy hospital works 8-10 hour shifts. The ones that work 24 hours (1/2)
iDownvoteAllVerticalVideos
are at tiny places that only get a few (5-10) patients in that 24. Or a specialist that is in high demand and people would die without.(2/2)
Braethias
I asked one once. IIRC they have a cycle, like 30 on/24 off. changes are dangerous and they do have sleeping rooms. shift changes are danger
Braethias
ous to the patient, so they try to eliminate that. also, excessive amounts of coffee.
JfcItsBecca
It does suck, but the more shift changes there are the more likely a patient is to die.
ihavealteredmyusernameagainprayidontalteritanyfurther
The problem is there simply aren't enough of them to get all the work done. In addition each one must be insured licensed etc...
ihavealteredmyusernameagainprayidontalteritanyfurther
I really don't understand why this comment is getting me vast amounts of hate, the death threat was especially cute.
choorp
Everyone thinks that, it happens because there is no other choice
loshea
Other nations don't do it, and their people aren't dying off in droves. So obviously there IS another choice.
peaceloveandgraffiti
I'm so glad this is top comment.
BallsackHippo
And they blame them for sleeping. totally retarded.
alinaphoenix444
Lack of sleep contributes Doctors being the 3rd leading CAUSE of death in this country. http://www.health-care-reform.net/causedeath.htm
theresgarlicinthatnebula
To be fair, people who are that sick and going to die anyway are always going to die as the direct result of an action an RN/MD takes.
alinaphoenix444
I personally find the fact that doctors are the 3rd leading *cause* of death to be unacceptable. Funny how others seem to think it's fine.
404GravitassNotFound
The limits for pilots should be enforced here. They won't be
PartTimeViking
it's unsafe, both for themselves and those they work around (coworkers and patients)
d1d1t4t3hlulz0hl4wdy
Weapons troops in the Air Force deal with bombs, it's a 12 hour MAX shift on touching them. Kill many? 12hr. Kill 1? 24hr.
RudePoots
Work hour restrictions are 32 hours. Preliminary study results show no difference is quality or reduced errors with the new work hour 1/2
RudePoots
restrictions. A recent study showed sleep-deprived surgeons performed just as well as non sleep-deprived surgeons. 2/2
JosephDunaravich
I've heard a thousand excuses and none of them make any damn sense. No other business does this!
HowsMyDictate
Nobody is MAKING docs work 24+ shifts. Typically, any provider that does work 24s, works in a low volume facility where they can sleep.
HowsMyDictate
Yes. Especially in the US. Docs WANT to work this much. There's one thing most love more than sleep; money.
AIIOOOCAPTAINJACK
Where? Are you speaking with your global knowledge of healthcare facilities?
GrapeBread
It's tradition (like hazing). People who go into medicine are also very high achieving and will always "go the extra mile" to look good.
LoudAngryJerk
it is, yes, but to be absolutely fair, the reason for it is that there just arent enough doctors to be able to cover reasonable shifts.
loshea
Instead of having each doc do two 24 hours shifts per week, have them do four 12 hour shifts. Same # of docs, same # of hours, same payroll.
LoudAngryJerk
fair point.
DavidA1225
When interns they often have to work 36 hour shifts. It's brutal and unnecessary, IMO.
mymylee
In Quebec they reduced it to 12 h max. 24h shift was putting students to the edge and people at risk of medical error.
eashton42
Oh, will the unspeakable horrors of commie national health services never cease?! God I'm jealous of you Canadians on healthcare.
Max209
JM1911A1
My GP used to do 36hr shifts years ago. He's definitely earned getting to have his whiskey under his desk in the small doctors office.
Pharya
U.S. workplace laws are fucking horrendous. Quite often something comes up that makes me realise how glad I am that I don't live there
sanguis4k
it is ludicrously dangerous for all involved, it leads to health issues for the doctors, and those they work with and raises chances (1)
sanguis4k
of errors by a massive margin, in australia for example they limited regular shifts to 12 hours maximum and it cut down errors hugely (2)
sanguis4k
sadly in some cases doctors and nurses still do 18+ hours in a single shift because of staff shortages and it accidents creep up (3)
SBegosh
If you've never worked shift work it's hard for outsiders to understand. I work 24 on 48 off and I think it's the best work week ever!
loshea
It may be the best for YOU. But is it best for the poor schlub who's getting his heart replaced by a doctor who's been awake for 48 hours?
SBegosh
Like I said, you've got to try it to understand. There's a reason why fire departments world wide have a 24 hour, or more, work day
loshea
Firefighters are allowed to sleep while waiting for a call. According this this post, and many of the responses I've gotten, doctors can't.
agorednocit
That's what call rooms are for..
MRSHomerJSimpson
But. But TV told me this is where all of the sexy doctors do all of the sex.
agorednocit
Some do
iamkarlkingofducks
There aren't enough of doctors though and everyone wants access to care. Creates logistical problems
gyngersnapp
Sometimes it has more to do with have a specific type of doctor and number on duty at a time.
Inflightmisslerepairer
Having worked in med field, doctors and residents no matter the triage usually show for crucial portion then they are off like a light. :-/
Benegesseritwitch75
I can't even imagine I do 24's as a paramedic but I get to sleep between calls at the station There have been times when sleep didn't happen
im0nmyway0ut
and nurses :|
loshea
Especially nurses! Since they're really the ones who do 90% of the actual hands-on work in a hospital.
MuhammedLee
They get paid so much that I'd like to suggest that they spend 1/2 of their 24h shift standing on their heads.
IHateApostrophes
Resident doctors, the ones doing the crazy hours, get paid pretty little. Do the math, it's often less than minimum wage with lots of hours.
indifferentialdiagnosis
I did the math for my intern year, where I worked 3950 hours (it's all logged) and was paid 48,500 USD roughly. $12.27/hr. $280k of debt.
almostsomething182
They get paid that much because they're saving lives, and have an assload of med school debt to pay off.
MuhammedLee
Relax. I was just joking.
almostsomething182
Did that come across as aggressive? It was meant purely as an explanation.
TokensWorth
What about soldiers? I did it on-off for nearly a month
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GhostfaceDougie
2/2 if they doubled or tripled that part of the job for her.
makemesmile
Maybe they'd catch up faster if they weren't do tired...
ChuckBoris
Nurses work the most, and are thus often stressed, but still try their best to be nice and comforting. They should get support, not blame.
loshea
They also do 90% of the work in any hospital & only get a tiny fraction of what a doctor gets paid. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms.
ChuckBoris
I know, unfortunately, I've stayed in hospitals quite often and talked to them and saw how great they are despite everything they face 24/7.
redjay12
I'm really upset about this.i take meds for a disability at night that knock me right out.But I also want to be a dr.i don't know what to do
JonathanSciance
The idea is that if there is an emergency where their expertise is required they will not have to rush in.
myprecioussss
Agree. Operating while severely sleep deprived is no different than operating drunk - except one is condoned by the hospital.
indifferentialdiagnosis
As a surgical resident, no. Studies show that shorter shifts actually worsen patient outcomes by introducing more errors at handoff.
iwouldliveinsaltforyou
Studies also show that sleep deprivation is equivalent to etoh intoxification. You both have valid points.
myprecioussss
Funny, I keep reading studies about how dangerous it is that surgeons are operating with so little sleep.
StonerCatJay
The longest shift hours I've heard of someone working is like 96 hours.
Futterbuck390
Look at the shifts infantry have to work overseas.
herkapernikis
The U.S. has a large shortage of doctors and most doctors now are at retirement age.
loshea
Maybe people are avoiding the medical field because they don't want to be forced to work 36 hour shifts all the goddamn time.
herkapernikis
It's actually not the case at all. It's a combination of stringent requirements, decreasing returns on investment, and the AMA
therealfbj
The 24 hour shifts in med school are used so that even tired and sleep deprived they can make the choice of treatment.
loshea
I'm sorry, but that's the equivalent of saying, "It's okay. I drive better when I'm drunk."
therealfbj
It's the same idea that they do with military training. To push them to their limits.
therealfbj
The science is to drill into them to make the proper choices regardless of how tired they are. That it all comes second nature to them.
loshea
My point is: Every human organism has limits beyond which even well-intentioned decisions become increasingly impossible.
zytz
It's not even close
loshea
It's kinda close.
zytz
Is there research that says you're more likely to wreck your car if someone else takes the wheel? Because there is loads of research that 1/
zytz
significantly less than all of the typical things clinicians are more likely to be doing. You're not going to kill someone by 5/
zytz
Is much greater than the risk of making a mistake when you're tired. Keep in mind that most of the tasks nurses and docs are completing 3/
zytz
Are relatively routine - doing assessments, giving meds, placing orders, charting, etc. The amount of time spent on risky procedures is 4/
zytz
giving them an advil or taking their vitals, or making sure their IVs are secure /end
zytz
indicates that patient handoffs are an extraordinarily risky time to be a patient. The risk of mistake when you're handing off a patient 2/