pilomotor
67655
1961
38
relevant clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sig8X_kojco&t=897s
Sep 20, 2024 3:27 PM
pilomotor
67655
1961
38
relevant clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sig8X_kojco&t=897s
BrigidtheMechLady
I really like Terry Pratchett's magical system of "Magic can make just about anything possible, but there's no real way to control it, so most magic users do everything they can to not use magic unless they have to."
M4UsedRollout
The lack of any rules in the magic system really comes back to bite the series when The Battle of the Seven Potters happens and the bad guys are firing off Avada Kedavra like they’re tie fighters. If they’re prepared to do that, why ever use any other spell?
Since spells have no cost to cast, there’s no reason to use less-powerful spells most of the time. Why would anyone use Tarantallegra to incapacitate someone when Petrificus Totalus or Stupify exist?
maythegorknmorkbewithyou
As I was reading through this it sounded more and more like Red from OSP in my head
And then I realized it *is* Red from OSP and this made a lot more sense
HeadPuntingBatmanRollerCoaster
Feels overtly hostile to Harry specifically as a character, misrepresenting some of his traits and, from that, kind of devaluing what was otherwise a very strong, very competent argument. But then again, the writer is explicitly mad at the duplicity of the writing, so those feelings overflowing to the MC makes sense
selej
Young adult books have one thing in common. Extremely low world development cause its not needed for fast written books. She just got lucky to hit it off, its not great even for a ya book.
Alsenoth
"Sanderson’s First Law of Magics: An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic is DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to how well the reader understands said magic."
The Harry Potter universe consistently breaks this rule. While it's not a law that all authors NEED to follow (or would even know), I think it helps a TON. Sanderson just kinda named them. But they all existed before. He even uses LotR as an example. Gandalf's magic is not used as a plot shifting device, but rather a way to amplify mystery.
Manakini
Harry Potter's education system is like all old-fashioned British education - by wrote. That school never teaches anyone *how* things work. It's just mass memorisation. Like all education in Britain until the 1960s or so.
OgreMkV
What's worse is the kind of magic being taught to late elementary and middle school children. They are literally teaching the worst kids, the most harmful aspects of magic, after having them divided into tribes that MUST compete.
Seriously, the first thing ANYONE should be taught about magic is "how to stop a fire". We won't teach you how to start a fire until you can trivially put out a burning building after it explodes with you inside of it.
bitemark
To be fair this is probably why wizards were dying out
SalmonMax
Upvote for including the link because watching Matt Mercer and Brennan dunk on Harry Potter is something I needed in my life *a great deal*.
DoYouWannaKnowMySecretIdentity
Hermione does not do Harry's homework. The books are very clear on that. She will check his answers and explain what he got wrong but she will not do it for him.
Aaron42J
Fun fact: Harry doesn't cast a single spell with a wand in the first movie. Flat out. In the books it's different, but it illustrates how little the magic system matters that he didn't have to in order to make the story still work.
dronir
I was like 15 when the first Potter book came out, but I had read enough fantasy that the magic system bugged me from the beginning. (Also, I remember reading the first Potter book and being like "oh this is like an English boarding school story but it's wizards", but now I have no memory what the earlier stories were that established that setting in my mind…)
Aelonwy
I was a little younger but I had read the Worst Witch (and seen the movie with Tim Curry 1986) and I had seen though not thoroughly read Gaiman's comic The Books of Magic where the main character a dark haired boy with glasses goes to a magic boarding school AND he has an owl. I know it came out before Harry Potter. Looking into I think Rowling cribbed from a lot of writers. Her writing is fun but hardly original.
kevbot5000
My first thought on reading the first book was that Le Guin had done a much more satisfying wizard school in Earth Sea, but there are definitely loads of other examples that are much closer to british boarding school.
Zeddicuszull
Same here. Never read a single Harry Potter since I was already into hard fantasy in middle school and I could tell just from the summary and cover that the book was going to be thin on the fantasy.
dronir
I didn't mind it, to be fair; light fantasy is light fantasy. But after a couple of books it started getting tangled up in its own worldbuilding.
Bigcurly2000
I remember being excited when he finally starts learning how to apparate, as it was a chance to explain in depth how to learn some complicated magic but even that was a cop out. A few chapters later he's basically just worked it out somehow
mechscientist
It was always a book series that wants a magical world to tell its' story, but wasn't interested in thoroughly developing the magic system to properly to do it.
Which isn't necessarily bad, you don't have to go into obssessive detail to explain every bit of the world when it isn't one that is just like ours. The problem with the magic is whenever it breaks the story. Needing to have something not exist because it wouldn't work for the story is fine, unless you have to remove it from existence.
AgnosticPaladin
Yes, it's necessarily bad. Rules by which the magic (and the fictional world) functions don't have to be explained to the reader, but the writer has to think them up beforehand.
If anything is possible, if the Grand Wizard or whatever can just stroke his staff and re-arrange the universe to his liking; or if the fighter can yell "Deux ex machina!" and kill the whole opposing army; if the builder snaps his fingers and a castle is built, what's the point of the hero doing anything?
mechscientist
If they don't set a preccedent for it, we can't just assume it is possible, and the suggestions there are terrible writing seperate from unestablished rules.
If nothing suggests that the Grand Wizard is capable of feats like that, don't assume he can just because it hasn't explicitly stated he can't, because that just bogs down the story.
AgnosticPaladin
If the grand wizard isn't capable of such feats, it is because there are rules and limitation on what he can do. I agree that we (the reader) or sometime even the protagonist, might not know those rules and limitation. In fact, books about protagonists discovering said rules and limitations are fun, and sorta a genre of their own.
But the author *has* to know, beforehand. Otherwise, it's just South-American daytime drama, where something random happens until time runs out.
TheFishFace
All that matters is the impact on the story. If it's not explained to the reader, and the writer doesn't produce anything that feals cheap, then it's fine. Just because the author didn't think up any rules does not mean that feels cheap to the reader.
Here's a riff on Sanderson's rule: if magic solves major issues for the protagonists, it shouldn't be too much of a surprise when it does.
AgnosticPaladin
Yes, it does feel cheap, at least to a reader that uses the frontal lobes. This is the famous "mystery box" that lazy authors put in, without bothering to think about what's in there; that's a problem for the future author.
TheFishFace
How can you say it feels cheap, always? Two writers could write the exact same plot, and one could have come up with rules for the magic while the other could've winged it.
AgnosticPaladin
I the reader doesn't see the writer was winging it, then great, no problem. But there is a problem when you can see 3 ways to defeat the bad guy on the first 5 pages, then the writer pretends those never happens, or the characters are too stupid to think about them, even when they are geniuses and insist to refer to themselves as such.
That was just an example, and yes, it was from HP. Ok, not the first chapter, but the chapter in which he arrives at Hogwarts. Third? That's because JKR didn't...
HoneyBunchesOfStoats
At the other end of the spectrum, I'm not fond of books where they feel the need to shoehorn in long detailed explanations to show off how their magic system works at the expense of enjoyable storytelling. You need a balance, it should have bones but you shouldn't have chunks that read like a physics textbook.
JemIsTrulyOutrageous
This. Its made up, so it can have made up and breakable rules. I think expecting perfectionism with some of this stuff gets ridiculous. The fact that its author is evil with a superiority complex makes it valid to criticize roughly though.
AgnosticPaladin
Nono. There *have* to be rules by which that universe works. They don't have to be explained to the reader (i personally love when they are explained, but that's just a preference).
But if anything is possible, if the Grand Wizard or whatever can just stroke his staff and re-arrange the universe to his liking; or if the fighter can yell "Deux ex machina!" and kill the whole opposing army; if the builder snaps his fingers and a castle is built, what's the point of the hero doing anything?
dashers
I don't think you need to get side tracked going into the detail, just that what happens operates consistently in that world. That depth then becomes apparent through the story without it being laborious to understand complexity.
Warvillage
As long as the author knows and follow the rules, then the readers can learn along the way. But if not even the author knows then they can randomly introduce new rules that makes earlier parts nonsensical. like: everybody can teleport! then why did you attemt to fly from Scotland to London on a broom last year?
Couchwarrior1337
"Eat slugs" is proof that the actual words don't need to be in latin at all and you could easily scream "DIE!!" instead of the killing curse for the same general effect.
modus0
IIRC, intent was also very important. Harry flubbed a casting of the Crucio curse because he doesn't *want* to hurt people
Pervaroo
I also thought the inflation of Marjorie Dursley was wild magic or at least unintentional/uncontrolled and happened after he going to Hogwarts. In any case, I think this points to their point: it's wildly inconsistent and works in whatever way serves the narrative. Not that it's a bad thing, but it is hard to call it a "magic system."
QuatermainFT
Yes. I always had the impression a) hogwarts is teaching to the lowest common denominator (unfocused, untalented, less powerful kids) like most schools and b) the words and motions were to help the LCD kids focus in on *exactly* what they want *every* time, so they weren't blowing things up. Magic existed 100% outside the 'hogwarts framework' and could easily be tapped many different ways beyond the school basics. Harry deleting the glass at the zoo with just a thought, no wand for example.
ShaunDreclin
I actually really like that theory, ties in well with the nonverbal spells later in the series too.
Septcanmat
Except “DIE!!” might just result in a numbered cube being flung at your enemy. Maybe the use of Latin phrases is to ensure the caster’s intentions are uniquely expressed.
Sw1ftTurtle
You think you would express yourself more clearly in Latin rather than English?
Septcanmat
If I don’t know Latin and so am taught only very specific words and told they mean a single specific thing, then that word means that one thing to me and my use of it is unambiguous.
JanglesPrime
Yeah, other books have gone that route. Dresden Files you can use any langue as a focus to your will. Even in the Magic 2.0 series of books Esperanto is used as a magic language, though they live in a computer simulation, so, it is shaped as fantasy, but more like executable commands. But then I think is says something that a SF book series has a better magic system.
ShieldAnvil1
Harry Potter was a pretty bad series for hundreds of reasons, there are far better books.... As a child high school literature made me hate books and this series got me reading again so I could discover all of the far more amazing books and for that I will always love this series, re read it, and try to get my kids to read it.
kibbypie
Yup. Every time I see a post like this, it’s “why are we still giving her attention?”
TheHappyFrenchCanadian
For I me I kinda grew up with it, but the book did not grew up as quickly as I had so when the 7 book came out I was 17 and I was reading quite a bit by that point. I had to force my way through the 7 book, I hated every second of it, none of it made sense and it kinda ruin the series for me just like those 2-3 last season of GOT. The bubble burst brutally :P But still my disappointment with Harry Potter made me read the dune series, the whole Tolkien stuff etc... so I guess there's that
ahorseelbowdeepinme
valkyriepalmtree
Does Harry keep a little dirt under his pillow for the dirt man?
ahorseelbowdeepinme
Efreeti
ahorseelbowdeepinme
I didn't know that existed
pilomotor
It annoys me that the song clearly says "drinking creatine" and the video turned it into "eating cream puffs".
anarchoFeline
the main character in the anime for the video is always eating cream puffs. anime is mashle: magic and muscles
lordnequam
It had a great premise but, honestly, the entire cast other than Mash were one-dimensional tropes of the most basic variety and it really brought the series down for me.
BlankMage
It also doesn't do alot to poke fun at how dumb Hogwarts logic is, which is what I was hoping we'd see. HP has dozens of plot points that make zero sense in retrospect (see this post), but Mashle doesn't seem interested in making them the joke. It's just like "Mash is real strong" and that's kinda it, when there's a whole world to interact with.
JimFromMarketing
???
ahorseelbowdeepinme
The anime is called Mashle
ahorseelbowdeepinme
I think that's part of the charm. It feels like it's poking fun at the kinds of anime that rely on those kinds of tropes
lordnequam
To each their own; it just didn't land with me, if that was their intent.
SteveTheEgg
The opposite of course is the Hobbit. It's a simple little tale about a little guy seeing some elves, dwarfs, and a wizard, and a dragon. It is a simple story that could be told in a children's book. But no, it has a mythological base that is deeper and more complete than our understanding of a lot of actual cultural mythologies. It is a tiny shack atop a prodigious castle. Well not a shack, a hole.
astrangehop
Which I think is rather silly and childish. We're building a lot on previous sword & sorcery works but also throwing on the veneer of fairy + folktales where there's a definite binary of good and evil in every person or culture. How very British to have entire races characterized as noble, greedy, or abominable.
cuttlefishsticks
yeah but not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.
Septcanmat
But didn’t the shack come before the castle?
FoxPesdassi
The shack was *published* before the castle. But Tolkien had been studying fortress design, architecture, and masonry, and putting that learning to practical use, for decades before he tossed off the shack as a pet project.
OrThatsWhatTheySayAnyway
There are a lot of short story early versions to what would later be reworked and weaved into Tolkien's world building iirc.
FacelessAce
Okay, listen, If you are going to make a fortress, sometimes you start with something a bit easier while you keep working, like a side tower that isn't dependent on the fortress, and can be done independently, while still being connected (or not). This often leads to little differences between the design of your tower and fortress, and if you put them side by side you might notice the little differences. But that's okay because it gives you the momentum to make your fortress in the end.
SouthAlexander
75% of discussions in the HP fandom are just people trying to come up with fixes for Rowling's writing.
Evi1Gav
Did they ever resolve that the ending breaks JKs own rule that she made up? A wands owner changes if the owner is defeated. Fair enough. Draco disarms/defeats dumbledore; Harry defeats Draco; therefore the elder wand is his . . . except Voldemort literally kills Harry (he gets better), under that internal logic, the elder wand is now Voldemorts. Ergo, the ending is bollocks.
EarthDragon2189
Setting aside the discussion about how Voldemort tried to kill Harry WITH the Elder Wand while Harry was its rightful master...Voldemort didn't kill Harry. He killed the part of his soul that was latched onto Harry.
There are plenty of quirks in the series' magical logic, but in all fairness the Voldemort-Harry-Horcrux dynamic is pretty straightforward. The ending does make sense.
DownvotesStarWars
This .... HP revisionist takes are hot right now but JK is a giant flapping anus of a person so I'm thrilled people are finding reasons to hate her work. Am I being petty? Idk and idc because fuck JK.
doggetofftheqcekmty
Can someone explain soft vs hard magic system? What are some examples where they get it right?
Kwyjor
There are probably even better examples, but Diane Duane's "Young Wizards" books go harder than a lot of other stuff I've seen. Thermodynamics features prominently.
nemocares
Hard: strives to do for the magic system what Tolkien did for Middle Earth's languages.
Couchwarrior1337
I'm still impressed at Harry Dresden managing to have such an interweaving of magical themes from different inspirations and mythos still feel like they're coherent together, from your standard wizard magic to hellfire magic to soul magic to faith based magic it all has rules that are followed.
EarthDragon2189
God damn it we need the next Dresden book
HiddenSanity
Real world physics is a very 'Hard' system, it has strict, unbreakable rules that we can learn but cannot change, however, a strong enough understanding of those rules allows us to do truly amazing things. Meanwhile, art is a pretty 'soft' system(I'd say medium-soft?), there might be rules, but they're not rigid, more guidelines that can be broken if you particularly feel like it, fueled more by imagination than anything else.
Them3OtherGuys
Hard magic: there is a rigid set of rules as to how magic is performed (rituals, reagents, etc.)
Soft magic: it just works.
doggetofftheqcekmty
Very simple explanation. I like it.
NicolasKevinMac
"Hard" basically means a story in which the author took the time and trouble to fully imagine the universe in which their story is set. That universe is governed by rules; different rules from the "real" universe, but still rules. The author *does not* need to TELL the audience what those rules are; but if they've properly imagined those rules first, it will show; and if they have not -- that will show too. My favorite example: _A Wizard of Earthsea_ by Ursula LeGuin. (1/2)
NicolasKevinMac
"Soft" means the author didn't bother to do that; they're using magic and fantasy elements (or technology and sci-if elements - same definition applies to sci-fi) strictly in the service of plot or character development. When done as a conscious choice, this is not a bad thing by any means. My guilt pleasure example: The _Shadow_ series by Anne Logston. And to the extent that there's a continuum of hard <=> soft, it just means HOW fully the author imagined the universe in which the story is set.
thefellerwhathadthatusername
Another “hard” system, relative to HP, is mentioned in @scamlikley ‘s comment elsewhere in the thread: “Fullmetal Alchemist”. In that series, magic (“alchemy”) is rigorously studied, requires specific geometrical shapes to channel this semi-mysterious power in manageable/intentioned ways, and messing it up can be disastrous. The series begins with such an act by the protagonists, who destroy their own home life as youths after horrifying missteps made in ignorance. There’s a physics to it.
doggetofftheqcekmty
Ahh, yeah - that one I know. That makes sense!
bitemark
Think Star Wars vs The Expanse, except with magic
FacelessAce
Hard magic systems explain how magic works in the world, while soft magic systems give unconnected or seemingly unconnected examples without explaining how or why they operate as they do.
RayneOfSalt
D&D is a hard magic system, while Mage: The Ascencion has a soft magic system.
Jarjarthejedi
It's the same scale used for other things, like sci-fi. Soft = "We don't much care about the rules, just enjoy the story". Hard = "I have meticulously written out exactly how every piece of this system works before writing a single word of the story". Discworld if the first hard-er example that comes to mind, things like counterweights for teleportation, where magical energy goes, how it's generated, risks and dangers, etc are spoken of, consistent, and often plot-relevant.
Iwannaseeit
I'm on the 4th discworld book so maybe it gets more into it later. but he constantly brings up that casting magic makes you forget it completely. but then that just also never seems to happen with anyone ?
Alsenoth
Anything by Sanderson sticks out as Hard Magic. And, for sure, The Kingkiller Chronicles. Though maybe I should stop bringing that one up. For the reasons.
thefellerwhathadthatusername
The Wheel of Time series, for example, has a hard(er) magic system: it exists as an extant force in the universe, drives the perceived “cycle” of the world’s progression, and we get lots of first-person narratives on what it takes to learn/intuit the usage of said magic, differences between types and casters, particular abilities whose knowledge has been lost (and occasionally rediscovered), and even how all of this plays out in the broader world politically and culturally.
thefellerwhathadthatusername
It has fairly rigorous limitations; a wizard (“channeler” in this setting) can draw different “threads” from the “Source”, and their method differs if they are male or female, and there are in-universe reasons for the discrepancies as well as some specific exceptions, that are themselves explained. Very little gets hand-waved, even though the channeling appears to the lay-person to be exactly that (waving hands and magic happens).
Zeddicuszull
And how those threads of magic can have different colors with different properties and how weaving them in different ways is how spells are cast. Which fits the motif of the wheel of time being an analogy of a loom and the wheel entwining all the worlds fate into one string.
picklesandcheese
Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is an HP fan fic with a hard magic system: https://hpmor.com/ The premise is that Petunia married an Oxford Professor who taught Harry about the scientific method and he takes that analytical approach to Hogwarts and investigates magic with that mindset.
ghostofGracchusBabeuf
Ah I wondered if I would find a plug for this in the comments.
Kwyjor
I was looking to see if anyone mentioned that. Whatever else might be said about HPMOR, I think it does a neat job of trying to squash the magic system into something vaguely consistent.
SneakyGaryTheSerialHorseDrowner
That fic ruined Harry Potter for me - but in a good way. It salvages too much of the stupid canon for me to ever take the original seriously again. Rowling's writing was already full of holes but when it came out that she's also a complete fuckwit it explained so much.
glittalogik
100%, it's a better story in every way.
Elvirana
I like HPMOR a lot better than the original. It also deals with the constant mobbing which I really hate in the original, because no one puts a stop to it; even the supposably good guys.
SneakyGaryTheSerialHorseDrowner
A detail I liked was the supposed good-guys in HPMOR join in on the bullying. It makes a point of showing there are Gryffindors who decide it's fine to pick on people just for their house under the thin guise of "they were sorted there so they must be evil". And they get wrecked just the same.
JustinArnold
And THIS is why i dont mind the hp books being so flawed. Its obviously not an intentional thing, but fanfiction is much easier to slot into a plothole than it is a well reasoned and articulated story. Good fanfiction needs to either follow the same logic as the universe it is copying from, or needs to fall into one of its plotholes, in order to not make me immediately wonder why it wasnt original fiction instead of a ffn
medimr
Idk, man. The magic system in the series is pretty stupid, but it's also pretty stupid to fixate *this* much on "kid doesn't like doing homework"...
JemIsTrulyOutrageous
Its extremely popular book series, for better or for worse. Its been read by people of all ages, genders, races, economic classes and has staunch defenders despite its problematic author and flaws within the writing itself. So even though the subject matter isn't "serious", its still a large piece iconic literature with pop cultural impact that can merit discussion.
maythegorknmorkbewithyou
Given this is Red from OSP and kinda half her entire schtick is discussing how narratives work, it makes sense
delecti
HP is the 7th largest media franchise of all time, just a hair smaller than James Bond, Jurassic Park, all LotR (books, movies, merchandise), and Star Trek, *combined*. It's inevitable that it'll be the subject of fairly deep criticism.
numbonvalium
Yeah, the books work because it is essentially a straight man in a screwball comedy bit. Harry, a babe fresh in the Wizarding world, has no idea about anything, and just goes with the flow. Like a normal kid, he hates doing homework, because even if it is about magic in a magic school, it is a menial task. These are books for kids that adults happen to enjoy, kids dont want hard magic systems, they want fanciful nonsense.
numbonvalium
This is not me defending the author, she went off the deep end long before the trans stuff. She really should not have ever created a twitter account. I am also not defending the magic system, it falls apart in a spectacular fashion with the series aimed at adults, in the Magic Beasts, whatever the full title is, which have awful writing. Feel bad for the actors.
medimr
Fantastic Beasts should have just been the fun adventures of Newt. That character deserved better.
numbonvalium
The first movie was okay when it was mostly Newt being a goofy zookeeper, but it devolved insanely quickly.
Warvillage
imagine Newt besting poachers, smugglers etc, while seaching for interesting creatures, a mix of Indiana jones and Steve Irwing
Sechran
I think I prefer "firm" magical systems to hard ones. Some concrete rules to keep things sane are good, and explanations where appropriate enhance any story, but turn it into too much of a science and now you've less "magic the phenomenon" and more "Magic: The Gathering the card game."
Zappers42
I like solid rules in my magic systems. Sometimes that means a hard magic system like the Fate franchise or a firm magic system like One Piece. But a soft magic system in a story that takes itself seriously is weak, like Naruto or Harry Potter
TheManWhoStaresAtTurtles
It's like any kind of storytelling. "Create, and then do not contradict." A really good magic system can get along just by defining a handful of hard rules. Defining dozens of them creates more problems than it solves.
Harry Potter creates rules all the time that it doesn't follow. As far as I know, "true resurrection doesn't exist" is the only rule she makes and then never breaks under any circumstances because to do otherwise would destroy the underpinning of the entire narrative.
drinkthederpentine
Both can be good but there has to be consistency and they each fulfill separate purposes. You can't set up the world and plot around a hard magic system then throw that out whenever it's inconvenient for the plot. That is immensely unsatisfying. Likewise soft magic is more about milieu than plot so if you solve problems for your characters with soft magic, it's just unsatisfying deus ex machina.
DarthVella
Hard ones can be phenomenal though. You get given the bones of a hard magical system, and you can work out some of the more complex rules if you're clever. And you can spot plot points coming if you're really thorough, or at least understand that you could have when they get explained later, if you miss them initially.
eggmuffin
I like the Star Wars approach, via the Force.
There are rules, but they're kinda vague and feely. It's concerned more with intent, with the dichotomy between the surrender and the domination of the self. Caring not at all for what one might do, or how, but for *why*.
bot1010011010
the fanfic HP and the Methods of Rationality makes a pretty good start at figuring out some actual rules: hpmor.com
OhIfIMust
I always disliked the "wave wand and say the thing you want in made-up Latin-sounding BS" method of HP.
OhIfIMust
(I mean, "oculus repair-o??" ARE YOU SHITTING ME?!??)
IHaveAGuyForEverything
I didn’t think much of it until I started read in the Cosmere universe and thought. “Oh, this is how a good magic system works”.
IPoisonedDorcasMutton
God I love the Cosmere so much. Allomancy, Surgebinding, and Awakening are all such cool power systems, and Surgebinding especially being limited to people who have suffered severe psychological and spiritual trauma is such a good concept to have. The only ones who can save everyone are those who have seen the world at its worst and choose to rise against it anyway.
eastherbunni
Brandon Sanderson is notorious for the amount of thought he puts in to his magic systems though. He's written several essays about his methods.
SirYumYum
I think my favorite thing that Sanderson said is that Soft Magic is a good storytelling tool for getting the characters INTO trouble, and Hard Magic is good for getting characters OUT of trouble. If you think to yourself: "What if the character used this magical application they set up earlier to solve this problem?" and they do, then it's deeply satisfying and engaging in a way that "hero drinks magic potion to win" isn't.
trondason1
I have mixed feelings about the Cosmere, but that might have been because I have only read Mistborne. Allomancy was pretty neat, but then they kinda just... Kept adding more stuff? I don't mean Feruchemy and hemalurgy, I mean the special interactions in between. The Lord Ruler wasn't nigh immortal because he stored literal tons of burnt pewter, by because of some odd Gold interaction. And then Kelsier turned out to be secretly not dead and was secretly involved in several major moments?
IPoisonedDorcasMutton
Compounding is... Weird. It's specifically because of the interaction of an end-positive magic system (Allomancy) and an end-neutral magic system (Feruchemy) in which you use the metal you burn for Allomancy to fill up your Ferchumical metalmind. Era 2's first main villain has the same ability: Compounding Gold Allomancy into Gold Feruchemy to essentially be able to heal forever so long as you have Gold to burn.
trondason1
I KNOW that, but WHY does it do that? Burning Gold reveals your past self. So why does it produce health when comboed with Feruchemy? Why don't they just burn Pewter, the metal explicitly noted to strength the body akin to health, and store the results? Same end result, less weird feedback loop. Compounding feels like it came out of nowhere. There was already a far more natural explanation, the stockpiling of literal tons of burnt Pewter, but no, it was some new unknown phenomenon.
IPoisonedDorcasMutton
It's specifically because you are taking the end-positive magic (aka, it puts out more than you put in) and applying it to the end neutral magic (aka, you get out what you put in). It creates a feedback loop, essentially. You put Health into the Goldmind, then you burn the Goldmind, which takes all of that Health you put in and gives you *more* because of the end positive nature of Allomancy.
trondason1
While also fundamentally changing the properties of what burning gold does. Again, this is a NEW thing, just added on seemingly out of nowhere, for no real apparent reason. You can recreate most of the compound tricks elsewise, the only trick that isn't explicitly possible via the stockpiling method, is the lord emperor's agelessness, and if they needed a reason other than 'He gave himself that', maybe just having a ABSURD amount of Health does that?
VinchVolt
I didn't realize this was Red from Overly Sarcastic Productions until she mentioned Blue in the last paragraph, lol.
DerFoxeh
Love their work. I have the Hades & Persephone shirt and it's one of my favorites.
ReignOfError
Same, "Blue? Oh, this poster has the name of her webcomic. I bet this is her. Yep." Then I went back over and re-read it with the correct voice in my head.
Amtobias
I can see the little cartoon Red in my head gesticulating while I read it now
maythegorknmorkbewithyou
I was increasingly hearing her voice in my head as I went through it - because she types and enunciates her language like how she talks - and when I saw Blue I did a doubletake
Sh4dowWalker96
I spaced that *entirely* even though this sounds like exactly the kind of rant Red would go on.
TheCrimsonRaven
OH SHIT this is OSP Red! No wonder I was immediately nodding along
SaveitforQueenDoppelpoppolus
okay but what about the very detailed version of sportsball in which a dozen people fuck around pointlessly until the protagonist literally single-handedly wins the game by catching the magic i win button
shempmarx
Are we talking about Quidditch or the 2024 presidential election?
DerpMeister
Mcmaclassie
There's a Quiddich game that just came out on consoles that actually solves this... the snitch is only worth 30 points instead of 150 and catching it doesn't end the game. The game, however, does end automatically once one team scores at least 100 points, which doesn't take very long.
Shoumpue
Another issue of Quiddich is that there are timeouts, despite the ball always being in play. This is like if soccer had timeouts. Like sure, you could if the ball went out of bounds and isn't in play, but there's no way a timeout works when the ball is in play. In quiddich, the ball is always in play.
WarlockWithNoPatron
BuT tHaT oNe TIMe A tEaM cAuGht ThE sNiTcH aNd LoSt/s
OliverOtter
Ulama, the "basketball" game the Aztec played, actually was pretty much that. Games were usually won on points over a long, grueling match. But getting the ball through one of the two hoops could also win it instantly regardless of what the point scores were at that moment. So it's not at all unrealistic.
WoeToHice
Weird. I can't find any source that backs that claim. All the sources I've been able to find say you win after 8 rayas. And they all agree that the score can go down as well as up. But I can't find an auto-win rule.
Shaodyn
You often get more detail about the rules of Nonsensical Broomstick Sportsball than how magic actually works. Because Harry is an indifferent student at best, despite learning about actual magic.
Shaodyn
Which is why I never really related to him. Sure, I wasn't the most diligent student, but I'd have been all over learning about actual magic. The class brain would have been fighting me for the top spot every single day.
SerialChickenLover
Quidditch is like a normal game of football except there’s a greased-up naked guy on meth running around, and all but two players have to ignore him as he runs around the stadium and two dudes on opposite sides pursue him. Whoever can pin him down wins the game despite all of the effort the other 12 members of the team put in.
jbrightmans
I wrote a similar critique including the quidditch nonsense in a paper in 2004 and I was almost crucified by the class
MusicPenguin
Very much like the elections in the USA.
OnyxTurret
"You lost the basketball game because some kid in the parking lot caught a frog"
Stanistani
There's no rule that a dog can't play basketball.
Sh4dowWalker96
dammit Ramirez
CardboardStomach
That's another case of Rowling shooting herself in the foot for the sake of making Harry the perfect prodigy and not doing thorough world building. The Snitch is the only way to end a game and is only worth 150 points, it's even stated that matches can go on for days, even months and that you can still catch the Snitch and lose if you're down enough points.So in a world where pro-athletes sometimes play for multiple days to win a game, Harry conveniently always ends the game in minutes to hours.
Sw1ftTurtle
That also raises the point that there are four houses that play each other, So each player plays three games, if games can last months then they are spending six months of their school year playing sports ball. If you watch the games you are probably spending over 12 months a year watching games.
Kalavier
Probably makes it easier for the apparent handful of teachers who cover every single grade of a topic in one go.
SerialChickenLover
It’s because Harry is a Very Special Boy.
CardboardStomach
It's been years since I've read/watched so maybe they did this and I just don't remember, but it'd be easy enough to add an additional wincon to the game or explain why Harry is so amazing at the game by saying school games use easier to catch Snitches than pro-athletes. At least then it would conform to internal logic.
ItispronouncedGIFwithahardG
Harry is so amazing at the game because he has what I'm just gonna call "The King of All Brooms." The other players are using whatever lousy brooms their parents can afford (Weasleys should actually be terrible at the game) or what the school provides, but Harry has a ridiculously OP broom.
7Rhymes
From what I remember one of the side books detailed that your win/loss record doesn't matter, the winner of everything, in the pro league, is determined by your entire score throughout the entire season. So basically that means if my team is dead last and we're at the final game of the season we can make this game go on until we have the highest amount of points.
It's pretty fucking stupid.
bonetonelord
It would have been so easy to fix it, too. Instead of 150 points and one catch ends the game, make it 50 points and three catches end the game. If one team makes all three, they still almost certainly win, but if the catches are split, the other positions actually matter, all while keeping the seeker's gameplay and narrative role unchanged.
WoeToHice
Now, _this_ is proper game design. Kudos!
wabitgirl
Rawling was too busy coming up with names like Kingley Shacklebolt for her only black character, and naming the one asian one Cho Chang, to actually give a fuck about making her world make ANY fucking sense. Those books are a literary nightmare when it comes to wider universe consistency, logic, or thought experiments. This is super evident if you read anything outside of the HP worlds. JK sucks fucking dick at creative writing, and got famous of a single idea and right place/right time.
SaveitforQueenDoppelpoppolus
i mean she wasnt trying to design a game, she was trying to make a plot device where the main character is the hero
Sw1ftTurtle
Better would be it is -50 points. Then your team needs to get a 5 goal lead, (I think goals are ten points), and maintain it while completing another task.
studog2010
That is an _excellent_ fix. Well done.
sakasiru
Or it just ends the game without giving any points. Which actually introduces and element of tactic where the seeker has to catch the thing at the right moment when their team is leading.
SneakECoyote
This part.
imjustabill495
And actively block the other seeker when their team is winning.
ShaunDreclin
Would have lead to an interesting dynamic for the beaters where they have to focus-fire the opposing seeker when their team is behind in points and then switch to the other players when they're leading
modus0
The snitch isn't an "I win button" though, only a "The game's over now, and one team just got 150 more points".
SaveitforQueenDoppelpoppolus
okay except this isn't a real game, it's a plot device that a bad writer invented for a bad young adult fiction novel, and what happened in that novel is the protagonist's team is losing until he catches the "i win" button at which point his team wins.
WoeToHice
I think the biggest problem with Harry Potter is that Rowling isn't, in fact, a bad writer. Her books are utter shit in certain aspects, such as the magic system or their ideology, but her prose is actually very captivating. There's a reason why her books are so popular, and it's not just because she wrote them to be extremely merch-friendly, although that certainly helped too. If you'll forgive me a hyperbolic analogy, calling Rowling a bad writer is like calling Hitler a bad orator.
SaveitforQueenDoppelpoppolus
i mean, she is a bad writer. she writes simple and accessible young-adult escapist fiction. saying she's a good writing because her books are popular or easy to read or whatever is like saying candy is a good food because you want to eat a lot of it in one sitting
CoyotesOwn
The Owl House (and Luz) had some strong feeling on the topic.
Sh4dowWalker96
I need to watch TOH...
CoyotesOwn
FacelessAce
Okay, I've never watched The Owl House nor will I ever, but I do now respect it.
wizard07ksu9000
Why never?
FacelessAce
Not a TV person, not a trying new things person, and not a "feeling strong emotions" person, and something tells me a show that popular is going to make me cry, and I'm not here for that.
OhIfIMust
Just need a at least a 160-point advantage, and you're good to go!
johnnyboy1996
The point difference you have over the other team is what's really important in the end tho. I hate that I know that
Rovylern
Which actually happened in Book 4 and the Quid World Cup.
WoeToHice
Which, in turn, only happened because by that time enough people pointed out how utterly idiotic the Snitch rule is as a game mechanic, so Rowling decided -- as she always does -- to "show them all" by coming up with yet another implausible contrivance.
cyno01
Which still makes no sense because why would you ever even catch the snitch if your team were down by more than 150? At that point the seeker would go on defense because its also established theres no game clock.
Rovylern
The supposed reason was that they were so outclassed, even Krum going on defense wouldn’t have made a difference and would have freed up Britain’s seeker to get the snitch unopposed.
stevencloser
Which is a 15 goal lead, easy.
stevencloser
*16
EverNotRelevant
I am once again plugging The Scholomance, a series about a magical school with actual depth, plot coherence, and amazing character development!
MelfsAcidArrow
Oh I miss doing scholo 10-mans in WoW
crackjack375
Doot
Popeyeschickenandgin
.
busybusybumblebee
Doot doot.
Sh4dowWalker96
Consider me very interested.
TheInsidiousDR
Im on the last book! Series is so good
DaBaDoop
Doot
IPoisonedDorcasMutton
Dot
meowingintensifies
Thank you for the book rec! :)
EverNotRelevant
I got lots in my posts.
Akule
Welp. Time to start scrolling your posts.
gailforcewinds
Yes! I am halfway thru the last Shannara book and considering what’s next… thank you! I will start with scholomance!
gailforcewinds
@EverNotRelevant I am a few chapters from finishing the scholomance trilogy! Best book rec!! Thank you! (And what’s next???) also I wonder what @TinyOctopus thinks? I swear there’s a post they said they were going to read it too.
LitchLitch
Naomi Novick is amazing. Besides that trilogy the Easter European magic ones are great (kind mixed.on the Temaraire series though). But she also founded Archive of Our Own.
kiukkuinenkissa
SOLD. currently reading Mistborn but I'll be remembering this.
ladyfirewitch9000
I never knew she was behind AO3, that's incredible
Kelrik
Ok, i loved the scholomance and enjoyed temeraire as a younger reader, but havent heard of the archive series- what do you mean founded? Is it a compilation of different authors? What is it about?
LitchLitch
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archive_of_Our_Own
Imissmylurk
I loved the Temaraire series, personally, but I can see how it can drag on for some. The character development of Lawrence makes it, though Temaraire himself is kinda meh as a character. I would have loved for her to go more into the combat logistics of what the Napoleonic wars would've looked like more with dragon corps (and how they managed the dragon carriers given the tech at the time), but I can understand how difficult that might have been to pull off
rubypilgrim
AO3 is awesome! So many fanfic great stories have been saved over the years by them. Sadly, too many have been lost by other archives shutting down.
vfour
Temareaire was alright until she introduced scrappy Doo..... Ugh....
LitchLitch
It was a severe letdown for me because I had just finished the Aubrey/Maturin series and honestly everything is a letdown after that.
LincLoud
.
JustBeCoolBruh
tigerliketoightness
.
AdamBenjaminCrafter
The audiobook of this series takes it up another notch.
Druidhunter77
.
drochleprechaun
Love this series. Seconded.
I hope a maw-mouth eats JKR.
dakonsept
.
VentricularAnomaly
The whole series is an allegorical interrogation of privilege and is the finest work I have ever read on the subject.
OgreMkV
I love the first two, the third one was so terrible I couldn't even finish it.
Mugendramon
I concur. It was terrible and the main "twist" of the way the world works still angers me to this day.
EverNotRelevant
You're entitled to your wrong opinion.
Thegermancamel
.
DiabloGrandeArts
Thank you for the recommendation!
EverNotRelevant
Check my posts if you need more
UpVoteDragons
OMG I READ THE FIRST TWO AND MY ONLY CRITICISM IS NO SMEXY TIME INSIDE THE DEATH SCHOOL
UpVoteDragons
Also, never considered that creating condoms would take up mana that no one would want to waste but...
EverNotRelevant
[[SPOILER]] There's literally a scene in the gym??? Toward the end of book 2
UpVoteDragons
Yes! And I kept screaming, NO YOU FOOLS! History just repeating itself!
Assassine
Oh shit, I devoured the Temeraire books and didn't know she wrote another banger. Time to dust off the old ebook reader.
evbrew
Spinning Silver was also really enjoyable i though
colfish
Spinning Silver audiobook is incredible and a go-to listen for me.
DrunkenDaveIsDrunk
Dot.
Can someone reply to me in a few days to remind me?
EverNotRelevant
Hey. Did you read this book yet.
stolencanofrusto
Doot. Note: Buy wife this series.
Blud4BludGod
If you (or she) haven't read Mistborn yet, I'll throw that in as another series with an *excellent* magic system that is well defined and described. Great series.
stolencanofrusto
Its on her to be read list lol ty for the recommendation though.
BritBarn
Love all the recs! Saving for TBR
arkemiffo
Oh god I am stupid. The only thing I could think of is "Oh, cool. A well defined magic system for World of Warcraft, a book written to be as if thought in the magic academy Scholomance in the Western Plaguelands".
tentacularfleshscape
You just dredged up a kernel of disappointment from decades ago that the axe shaped like a tombstone wasn't actually good enough to use
ArmasFM
School is in session!
PlanckEraWasMyBestEra
I'm very glad I'm not the only one who thought of WoW first
Tauhe
I mean, that'd be pretty great too
Feralkyn
I thought of Scholo in WPL too and I wonder if they stole the name
arkemiffo
Apparently the book is published first in 2020, so I'd say its more likely the book stole the name from Blizzard.
AmanAplanAnaIPanama
I kinda hoped that's what it was... Warcraft lore is pretty good, especially the side stories like that!
Feralkyn
...Like, in WCII? III? Sure. WoW lore is the most broken, stolen mismash of nonsensical retconned bullshit.
The entire lore can be boiled down to "it got corrupted" for virtually every story, and the source and consequences of various magics has been EXTENSIVELY and repeatedly changed. Every expac just cancels a ton of stuff already established.
Feralkyn
The vast majority of major plot and characters are straight-up stolen. From Lovecraft to Warhammer and everything in between, I don't think WoW has had an original concept through its lifespan.
Feralkyn
Hell, a friend pointed out yesterday that they just reuse their OWN storylines. Revendreth is just Legion's Suramar again: a noble elf-like elite stealing magic wine from the population after, you guessed it, being corrupted.
Atm we have "the Nerubians have been corrupted by a dark force except for the rebels who want us to help" which is like, nerubians II the revenge. And the entire "sneak through their city helping the rebels while undermining the corrupted elite" is ALSO Suramar...
Goldensands
.. used to be yh. Then came the jailer
Whooa
I’d also recommend Pale Webserial! It has an *excellent* magic system, that has legitimately changed how I think about fiction in general.
bedarwarg
Tell me more about this? Is it written by Wildbow by any chance?
Whooa
Indeed it is! It’s about three teenage girls who are recruited by the local spooky scaries to become witches.
Rhyacorp
Also: the Magicians by Lev Grosman!
EverNotRelevant
"The Magicians" is technically the same premise, but an altogether very different vibe.
JadeNB1729
I love The Magicians, but I don't think that it can really be said to have a hard system. (But I read the books a while ago, and the show, which I also loved (S3E05!), has made me forget some of their details.)
Toomanyteethes
there is for sure a hard system in the magician's novel but it also coincides with an emphasis on how important natural aptitude and intelligence is to magic. so best of both I'd say. It's one of my favorites honestly simply because as much as natural talent is appreciated, there's something to be said for how much hard work matters
Chilichunks
When they decided to make the regal Aslan stand-in rams into a fat satyr that insists his cum is magic and must be injested by the attractive female lead and who ruined a magic pool by shitting into it, I was officially done with the show. I straight up don't understand the appeal.
2graves
They're both good. Overall I prefer the books, but they're very different stories. The show writers went a bit off the deep end later on and were not constrained enough.
Catchiest20Two
The Magician's magic system is relatable to developing any skill. Grossman's way of describing how the magic flows through a person is how I feel about origami. You could just copy a diagram, but there is a jump in comprehension once you understand the math, then apply that practically over and over until you make it your own
InfocalypseRising
That's a real long way of saying "it's a kids' book and just isn't particularly well written"
davesaint01930
I couldn't even finish the first book. It is terribly written.
GuessMyDickSizeWinAPrize
I know JKR has been revealed to be an idiot, but are we really going to gaslight ourselves into thinking that the HP series was poorly-written? I remember my friend once told me that he thought Skyrim was a bad game after sinking 5000+ hours into it. I don't think we get to call something bad if we adored it at one point, because that at the very least implies that it was good enough to be enjoyed by our demographic at the time. The litmus test for something being good is "Do people like it?"
astrangehop
Eh, I think it's fairly realistic in that kids like operable aspects of things that are boring. EG: "This Harry Potter guy plays computer games, and uses email, but barely spends any time coding unless he has to for a class! How ridiculous that a thirteen year old child would be concerned about social standing & squabbles among friends, and only consider cracking passwords when his life on the line!? Terrible writing!"
draek1
I've been saying that for twenty years and it took the bitch outing herself as a transphobe for the spell to finally be broken. DAMN it feels good to see people finally get it
drinkthederpentine
It's called "analysis" you should try it some time.
Paradox1111
Honestly "The Smurfs" are a bit more intellectual
OhIfIMust
I tried it once, and I thought that her writing was so clunky that I didn't get past the first chapter. I enjoyed the first couple of movies, though.
doctorId
I'm not a fan of the franchise overall, but I've heard the movies actually fix some of her mistakes by streamlining the plot a little. And also echewing some of the meaner aspects of her narrative (fat shaming, addiction shaming, etc.)
SwedeOnAnIsland
Addiction shaming?
doctorId
If you assume every kid is like Harry Potter and is an incurious dope who doesn't care about learning anything then that makes a great excuse, yeah.
maday1br
The kicker is that the writing is pretty good in some places. Harry Potter became a phenomenon BECAUSE the plotting and characters are well enough written to draw acclaim. That makes the pretentious world building's flaws stand in sharp, damning relief.
emberfish
Right? I'm a pretty big Jo hater, but like, it's a pastiche of British boarding schools/universities with wizard paint, it's not *trying* to be a magic system.
NoNameFred
Yup; in the early books, the "magic" is mostly just a background element to allow wacky hijinks along the lines of "Malory Towers" or "Just William" without modern reforms to the schooling system getting in the way and shutting everything down. It isn't until the fifth or sixth book that it starts pretending to have a more serious magic system buried in there somewhere.
WhatDeanerWasTalkingAbout
/michael scott saying thank you gif
thesnow
“Somehow, Palpatine returned”
MechaNinja
I like when smart people flense a poorly arted art and lay bare the muscles and tendons to point to where the rot is.
FossilGirl
I love words and I've never heard the word "flense" before -- I had to look it up. Thank you for introducing me to this interesting new word. And I love your use of it here! Whale done!
Flense: verb, to slice the skin or fat from (a carcass, especially that of a whale).
MechaNinja
I am old, and read a lot of books by science fiction writers that are still older. They get all the credit for my knowledge of words.
bitemark
"This isn't that kind of story"
drunkcat
Kids deserve well written books. You wouldn't feed a kid twinkies every day for dinner because "they're just a kid".
VinchVolt
The writer of that post runs a YouTube channel where she makes (relatively) shortform video essays about storytelling, from archaic myths to tropes common in modern media; the "Blue" that she mentions is a co-owner of the channel and makes similar videos about history. This sort of thing is pretty much the duo's bread and butter. https://www.youtube.com/@OverlySarcasticProductions
Malloon
Wait. This was RED'S rant!?! That makes far too much sense.
potshot
What makes bad writing bad is an interesting and non-trivial question.
TheWarHymn
Which is why I prefer the Artemis Fowl series. Too bad it never got turned into a movie.
M4UsedRollout
This is a cop-out. The first 3 books are kids books. The last 4 are young adult novels that try to build on the flimsy kids book foundation.
Rowling never intended to build out the universe. If it was just a series of whimsical kids books, then that’s fine. But because it turns into an angsty story that takes itself too seriously, the fact that she never bothered to consider how her world actually works causes it endless problems.
johnnyboy1996
The books started on this like, Road Dahl level of world building, and then it seems like she wanted to be an angsty Tolkien around book 4 or 5
EverNotRelevant
IIRC she resisted (still does maybe?) the creation of a Harry Potter TTRPG because she'd have to put in a LOT of world building, and the foundation for it just isn't there.
jwillr86
Kids on Brooms is the TTRPG "Harry Potter" system
godofhorizons
That’s because she was on welfare writing the first book on the back of a napkin. Obviously the world she initially created as a story for ten year olds wasn’t perfectly fleshed out. She did the best she could moving on within the constraints of the first book.
M4UsedRollout
Again, it didn’t matter until she decided to make the world a serious place in Goblet of Fire. As soon as the stakes were raised from whimsical kids book, she needed to figure out how her world actually worked. She never bothered.
RTBackup
You can retcon these things by having the protagonist learning about how magic works on a deeper level or somesuch.
MajorasTerribleFate
It's easy to imagine an 11-year-old not caring enough to learn the intricacies, and then getting more interested in later years. Not this kid, though.
kiukkuinenkissa
Aaaand this is why I always hated all books after 4. They just completely changed from fun, silly adventures to angsty, serious YA stories full of death and murder. And I GREW UP with the books being released, so I was of the supposed target audience. I was FULL OF angst, and pain, and sadness myself, and I still found teen Harry absolutely insufferable and the plot of books 5-7 too edgy and dark all of a sudden. The world, lore, and characters simply didn't have the depth for any of it.
Noahbalboa82
"Somehow, Harry cast a spell"
Raxenlade
"a wizard did it"
Shifuede
And then Palapatine returned...
OverwhelmingSurplusOfDiggity
Hey stop hurting me like that
istry555
Bad writing is just bad writing. You don't excuse it away by saying they were writing for kids, so they don't have to write well. Even a kid's fantasy world should have internal consistency, Harry Potter does not.
DorgEndo
I tried reading the first book. It's absolute garbage. I am in the supposed core group of people who should have been HP obsessed growing up. It is so bad. I didn't get the story until the 1st movie came out. Did eventually read the books starting with the 2nd. I still can't read that 1st book, so damn bad
valkyriepalmtree
It's almost as if it were written by a complete idiot.
lordnequam
That was...that was the second half of their sentence. "isn't particularly well written"
kaarbaakimgr
I thought the series was pretty good. I never took the bits about magic too seriously. To me (and every other serious reader) the series wasn’t about magic. I suppose a shallow reader would come to that conclusion. But that’s like saying 2001 is about space. And Frankenstein is about a monster.
RTBackup
The nuts and bolts of magic aren't what the Dresden Files are about but Butcher still put a lot of thought and effort into how and why it works.
AsheLake
So what is Harry Potter actually about? The story of a trust fund jock who grows up to be a cop in a land where slavery is good, actually? If so called "serious" readers care about themes and values more than world building, they'll still realize the HP books are trash, just for different reasons. Only on the shallowest possible level could they be considered "good," I.E. "I liked it when I read it, therefore it is good." Any deeper analysis immediately reveals irredeemable faults and failures.
paynoattentiontousernames
It IS a kid's book, but it's enjoyed by adults too. But let's not forget the best quality of the books: it's a gateway to making magical realms filled with elves, trolls, dragons and magic fully available and accepted to the general population. It's a gateway to make it socially acceptable for non-nerds to enjoy other wonderful fantasy worlds. "It's like Harry Potter, but better and more serious"
EdmundandHarald365
Some adults enjoy it because they were children when they first read it. Which is normal. The adults that didn't read it as children and still love it are odd people. And despite all of this, it's still quite badly written.
UtahGimm3Tw0
Yeah, The Magicians is pretty good
Einstein9073
Maybe not written by a hateful witch
kinarism
Except it's not. It's a gateway made of garbage that crumbles as soon as anyone steps through and then you're stuck in a magical world with no idea what anything means
Shaodyn
Harry Potter is (let's face it) crap. It has its good points, but its main selling point is making other fantasy settings seem better by comparison.
paynoattentiontousernames
Nicely put
Shaodyn
And I say this as someone who used to be really into the books. I have no read better books by better authors, but I still feel I'm qualified to say that it's crap.
rubypilgrim
to be fair, LOTR did that first, and did it way better.
paynoattentiontousernames
For a very long time, LOTR was only read by the very curious, the few. Not everyone knew what you talked about when describing Bilbo, Frodo and Gandalf. Now, even my in-laws knows who Harry Potter is.
paynoattentiontousernames
LOTR is way better than HP in almost every way. The import way HO is better is that it lured in everyone.
pleaseconsiderthatImightbejoking
Yep. LOTR was very much a nerd thing until the Peter Jackson movies popularized it, in the same year that the first Harry Potter movie came out
CrepuscularCryomancer
It's wild to me to find out that so much of what I considered "cool kid stuff" when I was little was considered "a nerd thing" by society at large. Still, things worked out pretty well for me as a lot of that stuff actually is mainstream now.
Lun4ticH1gh
Nah, The Hobbit gets credit for being accessible fantasy. But LOTR is written in a way that I found to be really dry, and a bit of a chore to read. I love that it exists, and that it's as influential as it is and continues to be, but if it weren't for the films, there's no way I'd know how it ended.
TheInfalliblePhallus
I read The Hobbit around age 8 and I loved it. I tried to read LOTR as a teenager and found it super boring. I'm not a huge fan of the LOTR movies. Those were also boring. The Hobbit movie was even worse. I hate how they drag out scenes as long as possible so they can make more movies. That being said, I'm glad people enjoy it so much. I'm sure many people would find the books and movies I like are boring... or scary.
NoNameFred
Especially since they did it by shoe-horning in a whole load of extra storylines and characters. You want to take the original book of The Hobbit, and turn it into a 6-hour-long production that you can split into 3 films? Just make it a musical, and include *all* the songs, in full.
boldewyn
“Kids’ book” makes the situation even worse, if anything. A good kids’ book works in a very well-structured world with all its consequential effects. That’s one of the reasons why Michael Ende’s books are so fascinating (Neverending Story the most famous one, but the other ones are equally great). The worlds he devised are extremely surreal but their inner workings are highly logical.
TheMuellmann
I must say I absolutely disagree with that generalization. Even th Neverending story has parts that don't connect to each other logically, but work together as devices for the story. Other books by Ende actively ignore logic and are amongst the greatest childrens books for it. And there are countless great childrens books that don't explain any technical inner workings of the world they are set in.
Frogapus
Edward Eager’s magic books are both love letters to previous children’s fantasy books and good examples of solid systems of magic in children’s books. “Half Magic” and “Magic by the Lake” immediately come to mind.
Qualtagh
But a kid's life is the opposite of "surreal but highly logical". A kid's life is a bunch of familiar things whose inner workings are mysterious. Growing up involves constantly asking how things work, and getting answers that might as well be two-thirds technobabble. Kids know how to operate a microwave long before they understand the science behind it, and they literally can't just logic that out on their own. 1/2
Qualtagh
In this way, I think the HP magic system resonates strongly with kids. It never states that things DON'T have a logical underpinning (hence, Hermione understanding how things work); it just acknowledges that there's a whole lot of baffling shit in between a kid seeing the world and understanding that world. 2/2
Badprenup
But that's what makes books with proper explanations appealing to a lot of kids too. They have a natural curiosity of how things work, so a book that actually explains how the systems in it is excellent.
Qualtagh
Yeah, I think having books in both categories is awesome. Both have upsides, and the contrast itself makes each more vibrant.
Bigcurly2000
Even Discworld, which actively mocks how complicated, messy, inconsistent and silly magic is, has a more coherent and consistent magic system.
dashers
I mean, soo much imagery was thinly scraped off the top of discworld and similar fantasy works to create the much guarded "original" harry potter.
Bigcurly2000
I'd say discworld is one of the ones she didn't take much from actually. However, she basically lifted the ENTIRE template of The Worst Witch, including characters, and just added stuff to it.
mithiwithi
Discworld would be an example of a narrative that "owns up to the fact that magic is fickle and does what the plot needs". With a side order of discouraging excessive use of magic in the plot BECAUSE it's fickle but powerful and therefore dangerous; the primary exception is books like Sourcery where the whole plot is about how dangerously fickle magic is.
RayneOfSalt
The logic that underpins Discworld might be on shrooms and lsd, but it still exits.
PballQhead
+++Mine! Waah!+++
Bigcurly2000
Hahaha I forgot about Hex
JokenPo0079
And the corner stone of that magic system is "don't" else you'll learn just how potent six feet of oak stick can be at solving magical problems.
Bigcurly2000
That is either a direct quote that I can't place, or a very Pratchettesque sentence lol
JokenPo0079
I appreciate the implication that I could be close to him in skill, but it's largely taken from Soul music, I believe. Ridcully brings his Wizard staff (with a knob on the end) to the Cavern, fully charged with spells in case anything goes wrong, and in his experience anything that can't be beaten back with a six foot long oak staff is probably immune to magic anyway.
Bigcurly2000
I loved Soul Music. You can find the animated movie on YouTube somewhere!
ArkoneAxon
Not to mention that Ridcully is better at running a school than Dumbledore.
mward1984
That's because Ridcully is running a University and Dumbledore appears to be trying to run some unholy amalgamation of boarding school and elevator Primary School to College institution. Ridcully generally isn't dealing with teenagers. Also, the UU famously ISN'T Coed with one exception.
Bigcurly2000
Yeah I mean he may accidentally hit a student with a crossbow or fireball sometimes, but he'd never intentionally sacrifice one lol.
eadanke
All I remember about Ridcully is the crossbow, running laps every morning, and eliminating assassins. Could he cast spells?
mward1984
Students no. The question of Staff is another matter and depends entirely on context.
Bigcurly2000
Haha yeah. Launching Rincewind across the world with no idea what they wanted him for.
ArkoneAxon
AND he knows how to crack down on the staff. He didn't even tolerate assassination attempts, and those were considered traditional. No way would he have condoned bullying of kids by their teachers.
Bigcurly2000
Currently reading Pratchett's biography, he's still in his schooldays and it's great to see how his real world experiences influenced how he wrote educators/authority figures!
mward1984
He mostly fixes that by hiring generally unambitious people, or people who are only really interested in very niche fields. Like Stibbons obsession with his Reality Engine, or Rincewind and Potatoes and staying alive.
ArkoneAxon
It's not that he hired them. It's that the more ambitious ones got shot and tossed out a window. Ridcully does NOT play around with wizards trying to advance via "dead men's pointy shoes."