KonviktKiller
52490
1646
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History Lesson
Remember, none of them did EVERYTHING right. But some of them were good men. Some of them actually knew how to sacrifice for the greater good. They didn't try to create a greater good through destroying ourselves from within. Do what you will. But food for thought, before you continue hating each other.
Nutsyapper
Barry Goldwater > Bernie Goldwater > Bernie Goldsand > Bernie Sanders. Half life 3 confirmed. Wake up sheeple!!!
Orionsdick
"I'm for small government, except when it comes to abortion, drug laws, the military, gay marriage, bathrooms, immigration, or religion
DravenPointsHome
I like how most people are so oblivious they actually think people paid 91% tax.
RudyMaynard
I like Ike.
cogs
The misinformation is strong with this one.
deadpooldid911
I feel like Eisenhower was just such a decent guy compared to most politicians
Tantx2
What is that saying? The only good politician is a "insert word" politician
DeepToot41
Id be interested in the history of Dem controlled cities. Is there 1 dem controlled city that is prospering? I think their all like Detroit.
IWasInThePool
It's a pointless question to begin with.
maniacalmacaroni
If we're going to have an extremely complicated and nuanced talk about socioeconomic issues in 140 chars, why not talk about CA vs. KS?
dejavu85308
I love Barry Goldwater... I think he could have had a chance against jfk but after Dallas no way could anyone beat LBJ.
jonnyabu
I see class envy that ignore actual facts. And FDR made the Depression worse. We were coming out of it till The New Deal. WW2 fixed it.
graygrif
Source? The unemployment rate rose from ~3% in 1929 to ~20% by 1933. Source: https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/docs/meltzer/maremp93.pdf (1/?)
graygrif
The GDP was $105b in 1929 (~$1.056t in 2009 dollars) & $57.2b in 1933 (~$778.3b in 2009 dollars) http://www.bea.gov/national/xls/gdplev.xls
lowercaseM
If I had a penny for every self-righteous lefty who thinks conservatives are stupid, I could almost afford a seat at a Hillary fundraiser.
Camelspotting
It goes both ways and is always annoying and unhelpful.
whyteraven74
These days there are precious few conservatives, they're authoritarians calling themselves conservatives. People like Goldwater are pretty..
whyteraven74
much non-existent.
JerodH
Good post @op. Good post.
KonviktKiller
Thank you. The point is about the compromises, not the entirety of each one of them. They did things their base wouldn't agree with.
scottgarland12
Will your generation be known as the one that voted Trump into office?
Think of that before you vote for anyone but Biden
InboxMeYourGermanShepherds
Well, this post isn't biased at all...
cptkipard
It's objective. Whether it's biased is irrelevant. I'm biased against pain, and it's still objectively wrong to cause it...
InboxMeYourGermanShepherds
cptkipard
*smirk* conservatives have been proven to react positively to alpha personalities more than they do to facts. That's objectively true.
InboxMeYourGermanShepherds
I had not heard that, do you have a source?
cptkipard
Yeah they elected Trump. The link is too long to post. Look for the .ac.uk result http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Donald+Trump+authoritarian+nomination
TheKnowing1
FDR did NOT save the country. He purposefully prolonged the depression to maintain power.
NSAOverlord
Your first statement is absolutely true, but your second claim is conspiracy theory and minimizes the authority of your first statement.
TheKnowing1
Just look at his threats and actions. For instance, his threat to stack SCOTUS with judges in his pocket.
NSAOverlord
That's fair, but it's still conspiracy theories.
TheKnowing1
That can be defended with history. It's exactly a new idea to keep the people poor and hungry so the powerful stay in power.
NSAOverlord
This is as much conspiracy theory as the images regarding the birch society in this post.
kidkrunk
O
Kereru
Does anybody have anything bad to say about Ike? Just curious.
Kereru
(2) bible they've been reading though.
ThePirateCatsRule
It's all Christian bullshit.
worldsokayestspeler
Ok the FDR one pisses me off. Those things are the reason the economy is shit now
literallyacunninglinguist
That's because it got out of hand, trust me he would be pretty pissed off at the current situation.
idislikecomingupwithuniqueusernames
No it isn't. Mismanagement and taking funds from social security -contributed- but were also not fully to blame.
whyteraven74
The minimum wage being far too low is the problem. Also Social Security doesn't do anything to the economy directly.
worldsokayestspeler
That is the wrongest thing ive heard all day
whyteraven74
No it's right. You should read up on some actual economic history sometime.
worldsokayestspeler
Ive actually taken a whole class on it
SaintMaceToTheFace
If you raise the minimal wage to $15 you will have more unemployment. Jobs will become more competitive.
SaintMaceToTheFace
In low skill sectors. It's numbers
whyteraven74
And yet every time we've raised minimum wage, unemployment hasn't gone up. And states that raise minimum wage don't see upticks in...
whyteraven74
unemployment. Indeed some have seen it go the other way nicely.
lcranston1930
A bus driver paying ONLY 10% of his salary? What eutopia is this?
JustTheFactsMan
Most bus drivers in my city pay zero income tax.
imnicetopeopleontheinternet
Effective tax rate vs marginal tax rate?
bigbootybigfoot
I don't know why you were downvoted, I pay 35% to state and federal taxes.
lcranston1930
Exactly, not a knock on bus drivers, no one should pay 1/3 of their salary to fund govt bs, but yet everyone does. The poor more than most
Cheomesh
I think I'm around 40%
Tantx2
Do not forget double taxation
NSAOverlord
FDR didn't save the country. His program boosted morale. WWII kickstarted sustainable manufacturing employment that brought back the economy
IWasInThePool
You're saying government spending improved the economy?
NSAOverlord
*sighs, rolls eyes* INUS
IWasInThePool
?
Cheomesh
It was never sustainable. It only persisted after the war due to rebuilding Europe, and only held on through the 70s due to the Cold War.
Treblaine
But it wasn't sustainable there, even by the start of the 1960's it was losing steam. Inevitably as weakened WW2 powers re-equipped.
Cheomesh
Yep. There was some inertia, but the machine ground down and by the mid 70s was choking out. The rapid 70s inflation didn't help either
whyteraven74
Industrial output surpassed 1929 levels by 1940. The economy was already back before WW2.
NSAOverlord
And INDPRO decreased significantly from '37-'38 right after the last of the new deal programs, so...
51CorgisInABar
INDPRO? And sauce?
Treblaine
US's post-ww2 strength was far more down to all other world powers being wrecked by WW2.
HanSolo312
Lotta bullshit mixed in with some truth here. FDR by no means created the middle class, & the end of the depression is way more complicated
geohump
True, FDR didn't "create" the middle class. But He did grow it from a tiny few to a majority. Now the right is shrinking it again.
Treblaine
The Depression pretty much didn't end till US joined WW2. Post-war found US in advantage of being relatively un-blown-up by WW2.
TinyRocktopus
Yea wasn't there a war or something going on?
Justabuckeye
You and your facts need to leave. We only deal in speculation and hypocrisy here
TestPattern
The US economy had actually recovered before Pearl Harbor. So yes, it was FDR's policies.
jaminbjw
The New Deal was largely a failure, the Depression was ended by the military industrial complex in WWII.
afterdinneromelets
The New Deal wasn't exactly a failure, it just didn't have time to fail or succeed before World War II did its job for it.
Treblaine
It had almost a decade. And WW2 was not "it's job" it was more a case of all other world producers being smashed to pieces.
NSAOverlord
if you look at the industrial production index(INDPRO) history, it was recovering during new deal, then slid back down from '37 - '38 (1/2)
NSAOverlord
which is right after the last new deal program was implemented. then kind of rockets up with WWII (2/2)
DooganTheTerrible
Partisan politics aside, how about 0% income tax, it was only supposed to be temporary in the first place
Cheomesh
I'm not knee jerk against it, but what would you tax in exchange?
DooganTheTerrible
We are already taxed on everything we do in normal commerce, property taxes, road taxes, sales tax, taxes on import, export, etc...
woodjoiner
How would roads and fire departments be funded?
DooganTheTerrible
Road taxes, sales tax, property tax, and the many many other taxes imposed on us. I'm just talking income tax. :)
DavidBrooker
The whole Revolution was about financial self-determination. If people want to have services, and pay for them with taxes, then it is just.
idislikecomingupwithuniqueusernames
How about you make your own roads, parks, fund your own police, military, firefighters, schools, etc.
malexmatt
It's funny because only one of those things is substantially funded by income taxes
DooganTheTerrible
agreed, there are plenty of local city, county and state taxes and in general the smaller branch of gov. that can do it, the better!
YallNeedMises
With blackjack & hookers? I hope you realize that every one of those things can be provided (better & cheaper, even) via voluntary exchange.
SirFormidio
You can't tax the Rich at 91% of their income. They will literally leave the country if you do it for too long.
Cheomesh
Exactly. Back in "the day" it was harder to take your money elsewhere.In the digital age,not so much.
biolologist
You either don't pay taxes or have never prepared your own taxes.
SirFormidio
I don't do my own taxes because I'm not fully sure how, but I make about 20K a year before taxes, so I don't get hit as hard.
biolologist
So then you don't even know what tax brackets are huh?
maniacalmacaroni
When they did though, it worked out well for everyone, including them. You can accredit that to other factors, but it's true. Regardless 1/2
maniacalmacaroni
that probably wont happen ever again, but the argument that they should pay more than 25-40% they pay now has a lot of data to support it.
GreatTeacherMichael
That 91% had a ton of loop-holes, so they actually paid a lot less.
illegalacorn
Do you know how taxes work? It's not 91% of their income. It's 91% of their income past 1mil or something, you know, money they don't need
UpVotesPlease
Problem is when you hit that tax bracket why work? If you make 400k and the tax rate is 90% above 200k why work for free the other 6 mos
PoweredbyOSengine
Who the fuck is to decide what someone needs or does not need? Did they not earn it?
maniacalmacaroni
I think a better way to put it is that they don't 'need' it as much as a janitor who pays a higher % and struggles to afford food and rent.
SaintMaceToTheFace
You don't get a fucking decide if someone "deserves" money that they earned you fuck
SirFormidio
Who are you, or anyone else, to determine what they do and don't need? If a man works his whole life to amass a fortune, it's not yours.
archiebunk
If you were being serious in your statement about "what they don't need" then you are an arrogant prick. I worked for my wealth. It's mine.
YourFriendlyNeighborhoodCthulhu
Yeah nice quote by Reagen, but didnt hé start the whole deregulation process that nailed us in 2008? (not trying to be sarcastic)
SaintMaceToTheFace
One of the major parties in the was Clinton if I remember right...don't quote me though
YourFriendlyNeighborhoodCthulhu
Yeah I think he kept it going or escalated it; I think everybody since Reagen kept the deregulation going, right? Not an expert though.
CigaretteMan
When Ford put Stevens on the court in '75, the guy was a middle of the road conservative. His policies remained fairly consistent over (1)
HydrochloricKitten
That incorrectly assumes that a justice will continue utterly unchanged as they age, which is a false assumption to make.
KalvinKoolfridge
.
CigaretteMan
his tenure. By the time he retired in 2010 he was by far the most liberal justice on the court. That's how much the parties have changed.(2)
PieGuy42
Well that plus he got older: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/supreme-court-justices-get-more-liberal-as-they-get-older/
WildWest009
Commenting for later.
CigaretteMan
That's an interesting article, but I can't say that I agree with their assessment on how justices change with time.
Dannyxrain
It's shifted so far to the right, a true center-left Sanders is seen as extreme
IWasInThePool
With all due respect to Ike, Teddy Roosevelt was also a Republican president in the 20th century.
theGrantimus
Yes but the first decade of the 20th century, as is the first decade on all new centuries, is heavily influences by the previous century.
NSAOverlord
I would argue that Ike was a better president than teddy though
Treblaine
Does that mean George W Bush should be on this list of 20th century President? Get real.
theGrantimus
I made a mistake of not understanding why the person I responded was saying about TR. I missed the calling Ike the best 20th century Pres.
NSAOverlord
Also, that still doesn't matter. The parameters of the claim were presidents in this century
NSAOverlord
This post is filled with some good quotes but it is definitely not all facts and the graphs are misleading and self-serving.
Treblaine
Yeah like how the hell does a federal minimum wage create a middle class? Middle class didn't exist before 1933 in America?
NSAOverlord
Can't tell if you're being drastic or not at this point. So many different people have posted so many opinions
Treblaine
Well, I shouldn't have to say that US middle-class pre-dated the 1930's.
NSAOverlord
you shouldn't, but this is imgur, where people like to create histories to fit their narratives.
methistopholes
The Koch brothers did not "produce" the Tea Party; they appropriated it through the Tea Party Express.
NSAOverlord
Yuppers
MapleLeafEagle
Can you elaborate on the graphs, please?
AnyUsernameWillDoForMe
The top rate of income tax is pretty meaningless on its own. Much more informative to look at tax take or gov expenditure as a % of gdp
AnyUsernameWillDoForMe
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/total_spending_chart This looks ok (second chart down) note the complete lack of a precipitous drop
NSAOverlord
The x-axis (time in both cases) is not a linear scale and distorts the perception of changes to the tax rate over time
serban1703
I saw a graph or two that gave tax rates I think per decade or half decade and average gdp growth for the same periods 1/2
serban1703
yes these graphs are not actual graphs, but they're not wrong either. Some business owners have acknowledged that too
NSAOverlord
Can you share the graphs you're talking about? I haven't seen them. I'm not taking a position on the claim, just poor representation of data
biolologist
Because those years the rates were changed, x-axis isn't labeled as time you're just wrongly assuming it is.
NSAOverlord
But it is - the year's increase from left to right. So the scale in that axis is time
biolologist
Again, you're assuming that and it's already been explained to you why that assumption is wrong.
NSAOverlord
For example - it looks like several presidents are missing between FDR and regan in the cartoon
whyteraven74
The Presidents not shown aren't shown because there was no change in top marginal tax rate when they were in offie.
NSAOverlord
Well that info isn't in the graph. Again, the graphs are cherry-picking data.
woodjoiner
They are histograms, why should they be linear? If that is your only issue with this post then I take that as an endorsement to its accuracy
NSAOverlord
They aren't histograms. Do u know what a histogram is?
woodjoiner
Would you prefer that I say bar graph?
SageyWagey
It's like a hysterectomy, right?
WyattskinthatsmokewagonEarp
I think ww2 had a decent part to play in the late 30s and 40s economy...I have a British rifle stamped U.S. property from lend lease act.
SuwinTzi
When europe and parts of russia are devastated, hard to compete against US manufacturing that was intact.
NSAOverlord
yeah - that gave us a nice initial advantage
nopo
WWII is basically solely responsible for the huge prosperity of the US in the late 40s and into the 50s and 60s.
nopo
The same tax and economic policies of then will not create the same results today.
FlipTheCouch
Oh, we're going to be needing that back. We seem to be running out of guns over here...
tekkblade
That's freaking awesome! Do you have in good condition? If so you should try to pass it on to your children or a museum.
WyattskinthatsmokewagonEarp
Excellent condition, but they're not worth much because we pumped out a few million I think. But either way its going to my kids
tekkblade
You might be surprised how quickly that becomes a rare item. Good on you for taking care of it and passing it on.
TestPattern
The US economy had actually recovered prior to Pearl Harbor. It had mostly recovered by 1939, even. Look it up.
Ohashootystealy
im glad that one was pointed out.
Taxicat
Pretty sure it was a little of both. Without the New Deal we likely would not have been ready to 1/
Taxicat
do the whole industry-to-military conversion that got us through World War 2. 2/
NSAOverlord
new deal was basically a moral boost that put people's hand's to work to distract them from being unemployed.
Taxicat
Which isn't a bad thing. People need hope. They need to feel productive. Otherwise they get stuck 1/
Taxicat
in a vicious cycle of unemployment and severe depression until they just give up completely, 2/
Taxicat
and then starts the vicious cycle of generational poverty where the next generation has already given up. 3/
NSAOverlord
Totally agree. I just think the new deal gets more credit than it deserves.
Taxicat
To be fair, it also gets vilified far more than it deserves. There are people who seriously believe that the New Deal was solely 1/
thisisthefunniestnameicouldthinkof
Why should top earners pay a higher %?? They are already paying a greater $ than lower earners?
KitsunesFire
Because percent is everything when talking about money. And because the top 1% can afford that higher tax rate, and gov. isnt free.
thisisthefunniestnameicouldthinkof
But equality is everything, what is wrong with a flat rate? I'll tell you why, because those who do fuck all are envious of people who do!
33mmChrome
Thou shalt not covet.
woodjoiner
That is not what my God said.
KitsunesFire
There is a difference between what is mathematically equal and what is just. If you cannot discern the two, I suggest a second try at school
IWasInThePool
Taxes are applied equally. We don't "tax the rich." We tax income. Everyone pays the same rates at the same levels of income.
cptkipard
Because money multiplies itself. It doesn't just grow in a linear fashion. They use people and the infrastructure a lot more.
imnicetopeopleontheinternet
Best argument
cptkipard
You think? It could use a bit of work tbh. It relies too much on your sense of fairness which isn't persuasive to libertarians.
imnicetopeopleontheinternet
Yes. If I make $1M/yr with 10 employees, I benefit from 10x the public school system, police, fire, etc and this should pay more in taxes.
cptkipard
Not bad.
YallNeedMises
Why should anyone pay anything at all? Whether it's 1% or 100%, taxation is theft.
Camelspotting
Theft you agreed to, so not really theft.
YallNeedMises
Except that I absolutely did not, so it really is. Making the obvious choice between "Your money or your life" doesn't count as consent.
Camelspotting
You choose to live within the system.
YallNeedMises
Victim blaming, and no, I do not. Nobody gets to opt out. There is nowhere on Earth to go without a government making a claim against you.
cptkipard
Profit is theft. Taxation is the opposite.
YallNeedMises
You're going to have to do some serious intellectual hoop-jumping to justify that one. Taking property w/o the owner's permission is theft.
IWasInThePool
It's not without your permission.
YallNeedMises
Only if acquiescing to the demands of an armed mugger rather than risking getting shot falls under your definition of giving permission.
cptkipard
Taking a portion of the value of a worker's labour is theft. Taxation corrects it. It's a fact. Stop making excuses for corporate parasites.
YallNeedMises
2) you value what you already have. When you earn money at work, you are profiting off of the fact that your employer values your labor more
YallNeedMises
P.s.: Considering that taxation is one of the primary means by which corporate parasitism works, you may do well to take your own advice.
YallNeedMises
1) Value is subjective. When you, say, buy a loaf of bread, both you & the baker profit because you both value what the other has more than
YallNeedMises
3) than he values the money that he gives you for it. Are we all thieves? Without profit, there is no incentive for *anything* to be done.