ScoreQuest
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So recently a lot of people have said that Bernie Sanders comparing the system in the US to countries like Denmark or Norway is problematic, because the US has over 300 million people and those countries have fewer than 6 million. As a German I couldn't help but wonder why nobody pointed out that our country has 82 million people, which is of course still not even close to the US population but as close as a European country can get (as we are the most populous.) Anyways, here is some information about how things work in Germany, I hope you are interested. I will provide sources, but of course they are in German, so I guess you'll have to trust me :)
DISCLAIMER: Most of this is based on my personal experience and research. If you see things that are wrong, please tell me, so I can correct them. This is NOT meant as criticism of the US or any other country, nor is it meant as propaganda for Germany. There are many of things that are better in other countries (we STILL do not have gay marriage or adoption rights for instance), I merely wanted to give you guys a bit of information about some of the things that people have talked about in recent months, especially in the wake of Bernie Sanders' bid for the Democratic nomination.
Well, I go to a public University in Germany. I pay ca. 250€ a Semester.
For this money I get:
- The ability to attend classes and earn my degree (obviously)
- A ticket for all forms of public transportation in my area (which would be a lot more expensive otherwise, this alone is worth the cost)
- My student ID which allows me to get many discounts (cinema, library, museums etc.)
- I do NOT get my textbooks for this money!
Source: http://www.hochschulkompass.de/studium/studienbeitraege-studienfinanzierung/semesterbeitrag-studienbeitrag.html
- There is a program in Germany called "BAföG", which is short for "Bundesausbildungsförderungsgesetz" (yes, I know, the Germans and their long words), this roughly translates to "Federal law for the support of education"
- This is a monthly loan from the state, which you have to pay back in monthly rates, beginning five years after you complete your education (or dropped out)
- Depending on how much money your parents are able to provide you, how much money you have in trustfunds, how much you earn from your job and whether you still live at home you can receive up to 670€ a month
- You only have to pay back HALF of what you received and there is no interest
- No matter how much you received, you will not have to pay more than 10.000€
- This loan is NOT indefinite. If you fail too many courses or drop out and start over with a new subject, the state will deny you BAföG
Source: https://www.bafög.de
- There are two kinds of health insurance in Germany, private and public
- I don't know much about the private kind, as none of my family or friends are privately insured
- Depending on your job, income and age, you pay a monthly fee to your insurance
- As I am a university student, I pay around 80€ a month
- Someone who earns 1200€ would pay ca. 100€, someone who earns 5000€ would pay ca. 350€ and so on
- If you're under the age of 25, you are automatically insured through your parents
- For this money you get everything EXCEPT some dental work, most prescrition drugs (which are much cheaper here) and cosmetic surgery
Source: https://www.krankenkassen.de/gesetzliche-krankenkassen/krankenkasse-beitrag/
- If you are out of work (or unable to work for reasons of health), the state gives you money each month
How much money you receive depends on multiple factors:
- How long you have been unemployed
- Whether or not you decline job offers while unemployed (the state will periodically decrease how much you get if you do this)
- However, no matter how many offers you decline, the state will always pay your rent (as long as you don't live in a ridiculously expensive house/apartment) and your gas/energy/water bills
- No matter how many offers you decline, you will not receive less than 300€ a month to live (in addition to your rent/other bills)
- IMPORTANT: I am not completely sure on this point (I have never been unemployed), as there are many factors that go into calculating how much money you receive (Whether you have children and how many, how long you worked before being unemployed, whether you have a disability which does not allow you to work etc.)
Source: https://www.arbeitsagentur.de/web/content/DE/BuergerinnenUndBuerger/Arbeitslosigkeit/Arbeitslosengeld/Detail/index.htm?dfC
BayazTheBenevolent
As an angry German, can confirm. This is what 'socialism' looks like over here. Not as bad as some of you guys imagined I bet.
LeVandegra64
I am dealing with it by calling it what it is: devoid of any real content or supporting evidence. No more relevant than a guess or opinion.
Constenz
As a French, pretty much the same
BayazTheBenevolent
Germany and France like to learn a lot from each other when they're not at war. :)
eggmuffin
"USA has 300 million people!" Bitch, it's about percentages.
resonatingvoice
very nice information ... thanks for this informative post
5e7en
BAföG - If you are able to pay cash and you don't want it monthly, you don't pay the half but 1/3 of all your debt.
Hellscourge
Also, if you are NOT able to pay it back in a certain amount of time (I am not exactly sure how long though) will they just call it even.
ozjuggler
Similar discount in Australia, where if you pay the university fees upfront it costs about 25% less than if you repay the gov loan monthly.
flyingdutchfrenchman
In France, we have something similar (my parents earn minimum wage so I get 450€/month to study, for 6 years max) but no need to pay it back
ScoreQuest
I didn't even know that, pretty interesting.
vl33rmuis
you'll get a letter from the BAFÖG amt.there it's written how much you have to pay back in total.furthermore there are chances to reduce 1/2
vl33rmuis
this total amount by paying it back in whole.This discount goes up to 55% (this is if your total amount is 24k or more)
bezuer
You have to APPLY (beantragen!) for this - I skipped this and payed nearly ALL of the 10.000... FML
masterfinch1
I appreciated this post's non-argumentative tone
ScoreQuest
If I don't survive tell my wife hello.
onionfarts
It's a beige alert
SgtEziosRequiem
250€ = $281.41 FOR UNIVERSITY ffs America.
CowsAreLame
Yeah depends on where you are and whether the university you attend is funded by the government or private. I pay ~300€ per semester 1/2
CowsAreLame
And a friend of mine payed 450€ a month... makes a big difference
jashi666
Living in Rostock, I'm paying 130€/Semester for everything except buying books. I can lend them for free though.
MehWasTooShort
Don't forget the "dual studies" - Duales Studium
gunnars
This is the kind of post that warms my heart. Key ingredients: Germany
TheAngryEngineer
Are you sure that isn't the oven?
AlexLeontin
I feel the same, and I'm only half German. Germany FTW +1.
vampirehedgehog
I feel the same, and I'm only planning on possibly moving to Germany once I graduate.
lecrinkle
I read this entire thing in a German accent.
Ichqwertzu
Me too! But i´m German soo yeah.
stopfuckingswearing
Also important: No speed limit on the Autobahn! :D Well, okay: Sometimes there's a speed limit, sometimes there is...
Badabing1967
Speed-Limits are almost everywhere now - only a few are free.
chargeling
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn_(Deutschland)#Tempolimit says more than half is ∞. No source given though. :/
implode420
There are still tons of "Autobahns" wich have no limit.
BritanySuthar77
Not too weird, when you consider how much political capital can be generated by appealing to emotion over logic.
IamtheGreatQueenSnugglewombs
Denmark: free education completely. Except books. Transportation you still get cheaper. Healthcare free; covered by taxes. Not medicine.
melodramaticbat
Britain is weird. On the one hand our student loans are much bigger and we have to pay them all back (interest free), but we have fully 1/2
ourari
They're making sure you live to pay your debt! ;)
melodramaticbat
2/2 universal healthcare. We have very little consistency compared to other European countries.
xXx69PussySlayer69xXx
there is just one big mistake. all those things are not socializm its social democratic. thats a huge difference ddr was socialistic or ussr
childishreference
Wouldnt these fall under the definition of State socialsim?
DankCentral420
Socialism = Worker ownership of production. This is capitalism with a large welfare system.
togetheragain
DDR and USSR was more authocratic state capitalism. No country has ever been a true socialist state. Maybe Rev. Catalonia, but that's it.
zenunchucks
Honestly, only in the US do people generally conflate socialism with communism.
LosWindtalker
Sweet name
xXx69PussySlayer69xXx
im trying to talk aboput serious things here. stop objectifying me to my name. thanks
cptwott
as a Belgian, i can confirm we relate to this. Not in detail, but generally, yes.
gunnexx
Healthinsurance is cheaper and we're forced to eventually get a job but yeah
flyingdutchfrenchman
France is the same but the grant we get to study doesn't need to be paid back.
joid75
Neighbor The Netherlands here. And here it's also pretty much the same. With the inclusion of gay marriage, abortion and weed.
NexiKuro
We're not as nice on the student loan front though, and our insurance is private but with heavy government influence.
CorvusBelli
As someone from Britain (Scotland, specifically, though I attended university in England) it's comparable to our system, too.
Bugofbelgium
Student loans don't have to be paid back at all tho. I'm a dirty orphan and get around 5000 in support a year for attending college.
MrOwen77
Pretty much the same as the UK
EricFromAccounts
+1. But could've done with some close-up photos of German cuisine.
firebellys
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2865/9601841182_dd2cc4c926_b.jpg
prattleassassin
Imgur is already a sausage fest tho
ImDarkerThanYou
What like Frankfurters and Hamburgers? America isn't exactly missing out on those anyway! haha
EricFromAccounts
Hamburgers aren't German; all claimants to their invention were in America. But yes, various sausage, sauerbraten, pretzels, all on my mind.
ImDarkerThanYou
Oh well there's some unexpected facts
LeTourdeFrance
Ah, the food of brown and yellow!
LimitDoesNotExist
Apfeltaschen please!
firebellys
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5561/15259273901_fb6b35e0e5_b.jpg
KirchoffsVoltageLaw
That would make this the wurst post
firebellys
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3859/15259268781_bcbfe64522_b.jpg
SomeGuyInNorthCarolina
And a Döner Kebab. Berlin has the best imho.
KaiMoto
Stuttgart too.
CaptainHanderpants
I stayed in Remseck am Neckar in 2004. Stüttgart is such a great place.
SKELETONMAAAN
That's where the Döner as we know it today has been born, after all!
biscuitfarmer
I live in Berlin, and it's true, all of it
SomeGuyInNorthCarolina
Mensch. Ich vermisse Deutschland.
NobodyThoughtThisWouldBeAThing
Ich auch. Bester Döner immer noch in München, imho.
firebellys
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2859/9601819964_ecf6883e9d_b.jpg
mikeatike
Rotbier?
EricFromAccounts
I should really eat some breakfast.
ScoreQuest
Have some Brötchen with Leberwurst!
EricFromAccounts
OH FUCK I just google-image searched that. That's it I'm going to my nearest bakery and buying EVERYTHING
ikbenlike
Lol. Most German food is fucking great. BTW, also get stroopwavel (Dutch food, Google it)
LompHoofd
its written as 'stroopwaFels' :)
ScoreQuest
Love me some stroopwavels :)
Morganlefae
THAT'S SOCIAL DEMOCRACY NOT SOCIALISM (thank you!)
DankCentral420
This needs more upvotes. Socialism = Worker ownership of production and collectivization of the economy.
zombozo666
Planned economy * right?
DankCentral420
Not necessarily. Plenty of socialists want free markets and democracy in the work place.
zombozo666
Muralists I believe is the word I think you need planned market for socialism
DankCentral420
Mutualist*
DankCentral420
2/2 history disagree with you.
DankCentral420
And as for a planned economy being integral to socialism: Bakunin, Kropotkin, and the half dozen social anarchist revolutions throughout 1/2
giveittomestraightlikeapearcidermadefrom100percentpears
"Bundesausbildungsförderungsgesetz" thats quite a mouthful.
giveittomestraightlikeapearcidermadefrom100percentpears
*Also i have nothing really bad to say about Germany. As a Brit, there is loads and loads we could take and use over here. That would work.
johnefffd
...says http://imgur.com/user/giveittomestraightlikeapearcidermadefrom100percentpears
giveittomestraightlikeapearcidermadefrom100percentpears
I'm 1/8th German y'know. :D
Dark0001
What is your marginal tax rate including federal, state and applicable taxes including sales tax, income tax, carbon taxes, etc?
Sakkura
Sales tax, carbon tax etc. are not income taxes and thus the concept of marginal tax rate doesn't really apply.
Dark0001
I realize that which is why I asked for them as well. Need an idea of how much people are paying for what they are getting
Sakkura
That's the tax burden. About 25% in the US, 40% in Germany.
Dark0001
Ahh. That's the term! Thanks!
ScoreQuest
http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/germantaxes.html
distances
I pay 42% of my income in taxes and contributions (health, social, pension). Value-added tax (VAT) is generally 19%, except 7% for food etc.
Dark0001
Cool. Thanks!
allergicturtle
When I worked there it was about 30-35% of my income and I only paid 35 euros a month for healthcare
Dark0001
Holy crap. That includes goods and services taxes? Do they tax the hell out of businesses? Or is the German economy so strong they don't?
allergicturtle
No I'd suppose with goods & services it would be closer to 40%. Yes, very much so. Also I never met truly "rich" people. Weathly (1/2)
allergicturtle
But not our concept of rich in the US. Houses are in fact tiny even when wealthy. My ex German bf was shocked when visiting Chicago. (2/2)
Dark0001
Teh intrawebs tell me there are ~100 billionaires in Germans. Pretty decent amount for a country of 82 million!
Vespy
Apparently, they just don't profiteer the heck out of their taxpayers and waste money on the military.
UnintentionalMasculineMicroaggressions
just as a note, public health care costs cap at a monthly income of 4237€ - so if you earn more you wont be paying more in healthinsurance
Mayhzon
I want to add that "free healthcare" is bullshit of course. If you have a job, the money will simply be drafted from your income as part 1/3
Zygro
Still, you probably pay in your lifetime less than you would for a complex surgery in US
Mayhzon
"private" healthcare insurance and will have to pay what Flaneur mentioned on a monthly basis, income or no. 3/3
Mayhzon
of the taxation process itself. I want to add that if you have no job and you got denied for unemployment benefits, you WILL have to get 2/3
121AAD
the sad fact, 90% of research is done in the US, the US subsidizes everyone else who has controlled prices and gets a free ride
TheMaskedPharmacist
Don't downvote this, idiots, it's largely true.
ILivUndrUrBed
I've never heard this but I'd be happy to read any links you guys can provide
itsaFUKINGjoke
it's not, it's very wrong. @FeelsSadMan gave links above (in response to @december1984).
FeelsSadMan
Nope you're wrong. In 2011 it was about 40% but since america is such a large country this isn't very surprising. Also these papers 1/2
FeelsSadMan
http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2011/03/23/the-most-innovative-countries-in-biology-and-medicine/#5d0d234115d3
FeelsSadMan
are cited less on average than several of these "socialist" countries you consider to be freeloaders.
UhmIcantThinkOfOne
Honest question, how many people refuse to work & live off the government? How much does the minimum allow you to live? Is it comfortable?
theothercollin
it seems that like around 4% of welfare recipients get sanctioned, because of their unwillingness and other factors.
irgendwerirgendwieirgendwann
The percentage of unemployed pl in 2014 was 2%. Of these 2% were 37% for more than 12 months unemployed or 20% out of 2% for more than 24mth
Badabing1967
at the moment it is 404€ - but you can get money for your home too. it's not comfortable - but you can live on it (thats the sense of it).
flattoppancake
There's always some, but who cares? If you don't drink or smoke, the cash isn't grand, but enough. Can't rec the experience regardless.
BayazTheBenevolent
Having lived on Harz 4 (welfare) for about 2 years I'll say that it's enough to survive but there's no room for luxury. It's the minimum.
irgendwerirgendwieirgendwann
Depends on how you define comfortable. You are able to live without benefits like Cinema, going to a Pub or on Holiday. 1/2
irgendwerirgendwieirgendwann
But you are able to buy enough food and some cheap beer and some cheap clothes. So for some poor countries this seems very comfortable.
ourari
Dutchman here, we have similar welfare. Barely anyone chooses welfare, it's barely enough to live on. And the social stigma is rough!
HodorIsADJ
Have you seen 'People of Walmart'? Do you think social stigma is an issue there?
ourari
There will always be a very small percentage of people without shame. No reason to let many more suffer without a safety net for that reason
HodorIsADJ
Oh honey, PoW is just the tip of the iceberg.
ourari
It may take a generation or two, but their ranks will diminish when access to proper housing, food, schools, etc. is made more available.
letstalkaboutSexism
some minor correction: Students dont get their ticket for "free". here it'S ~120€ per semester. 2: health care covers less and less
Spiderbubble
In the US I'm paying $220 a TERM (there's 3 terms in a year, 4 if you take summer courses).
XavC
NL here, I pay €2k/year and that's the cheapest possible way
MachoNacho95
Depends on the Bundesland.
mslinizucchini
as someone who underwent chemo last year: i paid 230€ in total for my treatment. 10€ for each day i was in the hospital for my surgeries.
Badabing1967
thats not that much - i hope you're ok so far?
mslinizucchini
i am back at my 250€ a semester uni :) life's good. hope you are good as well!
FunctioningWorkaholic
Breaking Good
letstalkaboutSexism
also most medical care you have to pay something extra (not much): for example: 10€ per day in a hospital.
Badabing1967
and you can get an insurance for that too.
jeffreybaratheon
Only 10€ per day!? In the US it's $100 just to walk in the door, never mind staying there.
[deleted]
[deleted]
MissRoosa
In Estonia it's 5€ to visit ER.
JosephGordonLevittsLeftSock
I paid 10 Euro in Austria for a Ambulance ride once. US is messed up.
ScoreQuest
Ok, thanks for the corrections! But the 120€ are not on top of the 250€ per Semester, right? I live in NRW
JamesJabberwocky
3: BaföG is badly explained. My dad theoretically earns around 3.5k brutto. But has bills to pay that eat most of this. I don't get jack.
OtherRichard
So its basically a pell grant here in the US then. I never got anything because my parents made too much even if there were 3 of us & bills
JamesJabberwocky
Exactly.
moedisaster
I´m going to university in Dresden and it´s included in the ~250€ per semester
schokobaer
In Kassel it´s also included
Maxxbod
Here in Thür. it's 190€ per Semester, Ticket is included.
LillianDoubleYou
In Niedersachsen it's included
Badabing1967
i guess every city / university has its own way. depending also on the local öpnv.
letstalkaboutSexism
here it is. on top of it. i live inBaWü
madflenser
Nice, probably study in HD or MA right? Hi Buddy :)
ScoreQuest
Ok, so there's a slight difference from state to state. 370€ still don't compare to the prices of US Universities
RogueMachinae
Its doesnt. 4 years of university and I'm in 55k (in dollars). That doesnt included the money out of pocket for rent, food, ect.
CryoCheese
(as a german) JESUS H. CHRIST!! - how do you even plan a future with all this debt. Some people also want to start a family, after uni.
BearlyPresent
As a financially dumb person, how s the government able to fund all these endeavors? Are there much higher income taxes?
GoDrunkYoureHome
The way that Europe funds programs in is a VAT, Germany has a 19% rate. It is like sales tax except there is no exception for resale.
eggmuffin
Taxes are a little higher, but that evens out quickly when your cancer treatment doesn't bankrupt you.
BayazTheBenevolent
Well for one we're not in a perpetual state of war which greatly helps with limiting spending.
andlight91
Not from what I've read. The difference is that the taxation process isn't regressive.
PleaseSitOnMyFace
http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/germantaxes.html
PleaseSitOnMyFace
http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/germantaxes.html
emanresudab
yes, but not much: instead, they actually tax the really rich people/ coorporations
CarrotsandKale
Germany taxes corporations much less than US. Same with nordic countries.
Cyclopentadien
Coorperations are hardly taxed anymore compared to the 80s.
humptyblargh
That 19% VAT (Mehrwertsteuer) hits everybody who buys stuff. The less you earn, the harder it hits you.
InternationalPhoneticAlphabet
not spending billions on military adventures and not having the OECD countries' highest rate of incarceration helps a bunch.
ozjuggler
It may be "billions" but it's less than 5% of GDP. http://www.supportingevidence.com/Government/Def_HHS_Percent_GDP.html
CouldHaveBeenHitler
Germany (and most other non-US NATO countries) don't even strike 2%, though - and that adds up.
InternationalPhoneticAlphabet
thats a lot of money that could go into welfare instead.
FRONI
Not everybody can go to University and study what he wants! (Abitur, Numerus Clausus,...)
mustang19rasco
This! My husband failed out of Gymnasium (bc of English & latin) was wasn't eligible for Germany Uni. td:lr he went to US and paid full 1/2
mustang19rasco
Tuition and earn BS and MS in Electrical Eng. He's smart but germany education system held him back. Free education not blank for everyone.
irgendwerirgendwieirgendwann
Even if you don't get an Abitur you are able to study with a Fachabitur oder a Meisterbrief.
eggmuffin
Of course not. But everyone should have the opportunity.
thoo001
That´s your own fault, making Abitur is totally free, it´s up to you to pass the tests.
FRONI
Can't get Abitur if you are'nt on Gymnasium..
missingdodo
Sure you can. Adult education courses; you can get Fachabitur, which only lets you study some subjects; or you can learn a trade and study
thoo001
Also u can just join a gymnasium after 10th class... no one stops you from doing it, it's free as in beer
Franzushenka
But everybody has the chance to study.
LLCoolBeans
Der Welt braucht Arbeiter.
MultitaskingMaren
*Die Welt braucht Arbeiter (Artikel are hard to learn)
LLCoolBeans
Ah, thank you.
BayazTheBenevolent
The German language is so weird. Trains are male (der Zug), the world is female (die Welt), children are neutral (das Kind). Fun times!
LimitDoesNotExist
To confuse the child predators .
flattoppancake
Abitur isn't the only way to uni anymore, and FHs often don't have or have significantly lower NC. Uni's overrated anyway, Meister is better
TakWriterOfWorlds
I would assume, based on what I know of socialism taught in the US, that you also have crippling unemployment and eat your own babies?
lemonwaterice
Actual depiction of The United States learning to accept socialism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdi3o5M4HRk
Abracaderpa
Just like they do in the US.
121AAD
Also based on tax rates I would say the US is already a Socialist State
whoopsywoo
Lol no, I wish
itachipirate
Nope, based on the tax rates and how they're spent we're an incredibly militaristic nation
hardytardigrade
Single-issue armchair economists will be our undoing. "Taxes! I want the right to be unable to afford healthcare, just keep my taxes low!"
Danishlmgurian
wait, who told you about the babies? you are not supposed to know about the babies. *breaks down your door* YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO KNOW!!!!
ScoreQuest
Yup, that's why the rate of birth is so low!
KeyLimeAnxiety
If you guys don't start popping out babies, your system is going to crash. That's why it's good that youre accepting migrants!
TakWriterOfWorlds
That's an ingenious idea. I'm glad my public education taught me something. Thanks!
WhimsicalCalamari
it all started with a modest proposal
Danishlmgurian
China could learn a thing or two after their attempts at low birth rates...
Ketheres
The fools don't realize that sacrificing a newborn to the demons is an easy way to reach your goals.
Ketheres
And even better way is to sacrifice thousands of them.
SudoNimm
There's a difference between socialism and communism.
kidshady45
One of my favourite Barry Crimmins jokes: "'Socialism is bad, I learned that in public school.' Public school is socialism!"
SlightlyRelatedToThePost
Well, I've got a Modest Proposal for you...
lemakuz
Weeeell......?
MachoNacho95
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal
ohcats
This deserves way more upvotes
LurkerOfDarkness
Brilliant, but I'm guessing only you and I and the other upvoters get it.
letstalkaboutSexism
that's called Kinder Surprise!
flattoppancake
And that's why you're today's MWP. Fuck you.
ForgotMyOtherAcct
upvoting because good lord.
letstalkaboutSexism
thank you :)
Arcian
my sides
spookyu
If people want to see a demographic of a socialized system within the US just talk to anyone who is AD military, it is in most ways a 1/2
spookyu
2/2 a socialized system you live in. There is good and bad equally within that lifestyle.
Mayhzon
You are right of course. But it is critically important to understand that it's technically not "free". It's paid for by the employed.
GR3453m0nk3y
Everybody knows this. Everyone.
TakWriterOfWorlds
I wish more people understood this. It drove me insane trying to explain it to people while I was in the army.
121AAD
Yep a place where no one has air conditioning, dryers, few people can afford a car, incomes are 40% less than the US and Goods 40% higher
vl33rmuis
gosh, what a bs! I don't know anyone who would like to have a car but doesn't own one.in fact: most families have two cars
SitusInversus
That's just pure Bs. Food is cheap in Germany and cars are affordable. I'm not saying it's a necessity due to good public transportation.1/2
SitusInversus
Most people I know own a car even though they don't really need it. Taxes are higher, but: healtchcare, education, good infrastructure. 2/2
jacquesrobespierre
The problem here is that about of half of america is so indoctrinated against "european style socialism" they basically have their own 1
jacquesrobespierre
facts and reality that they beleive, and breaking through that is so. incredibly. difficult. Its frightening. 2
blackGlovesMcCrazyBeard
It's easier to fool somebody than it is to convince them they've been fooled.
robdavy
Air conditioners - because it's not hot. Dryers - not a big thing in Europe, we hang our laundry. Cars - no need for many, except 1/2
DerpMeister
Plus, the german public transportation system is very, very good. If you live in a city, there is often no reason for you to own a car.
robdavy
it's 809/1000 vs 588/1000 ownership rate (hardly no one) and those that do, they own BMWs, Audis and Mercedes- hardly cheap cars
BlueBomber05
And comparative BMW, Audi and Mercedes models are much cheaper in the states than in Germany
BlueBomber05
No, they drive under-powered VWs and Opels with dirty, little diesel engines that can't meet North American emission and safety standards
Dipityseren
Honey, I think you should just let it go. If it takes another western country living in imagined squalor and hardship for you to feel good1
robdavy
Do you genuinely believe that? Because as a European living in North American, my first hand experience is that that's not true
besn
Can confirm, they eat their children. Source:
MachoNacho95
A Kinder Kebap is simply a smaller portion Kebap, made for Children.
MachoNacho95
P.S. I am aware that you are joking, just wanted to point that out ;)
PicklsMasterson
You know your country's in trouble when child meat is cheaper than chicken.
besn
the taste is similar though, or so i heard
schlachsahne
it says "chicken kebab" and "kids kebab"
randomonotony
"Kid" as in baby goat?
besn
no, as in children
randomonotony
You get an upvote
Badabing1967
no - like adults pay 2,50 - and kids pay less, only 1,10.
MachoNacho95
Actually, a Kinder Döner is significantly smaller and thus cheaper
randomonotony
And you get an upvote
HillaryClintonsEyes
Fiscal conservatism is a big reason for Germanys austerity. Unfortunately the GOP has a hard time grasping what fiscal conservatism means.
jiveturkey158
Which is funny cuz thats why like half the depublicans are republicans because of fiscal reaponsibility...and less taxes
PaperCl1p
If you think that conservatives associate themselves with the establishment you are not paying attention
InboxMeYourGermanShepherds
As a fiscal conservative, this is true.
delpharseven
That's because true conservatives are very rare in the US: https://sweettalkconversation.com/2014/06/02/the-limits-of-our-dreams/
ImgurMontoya
As someone who is fiscally conservative, I agree with you. The GOP has definitely lost what it means.
supraman2turbo
The GOP has lost any relation to what their platform stood for they are the Theocratic Party now
HillaryClintonsEyes
Which is why I think people have a hard time supporting their candidates. They're completely out of touch.
121AAD
Then you have liberals and Bernie EVERYTHING IS FREE!
eggmuffin
No. Nothing is free, but everyone should pay for things everyone needs. You pay for roads you don't drive on, don't you?
GoDrunkYoureHome
Hence gas in Norway is 3x the price it is in the US. 2
eggmuffin
Among other reasons, yes. And?
GoDrunkYoureHome
But the top 1% can't pay for it all either. It has to be an across the board thing. Europe has the VAT that goes in the final price. 1
redneckjep
That goes beyond just the GOP. The budgeting in the US is in my opinion borderline criminal
khora
You have to spend money on this. You can only take this much tax. You are not allowed to borrow money. We hope you fail.
redneckjep
Uh, thanks?
Sheex
Borderline? You're way too generous.
HillaryClintonsEyes
Yeah, it was a little unfair for me just to point out the GOP, but only 140 characters ya know.
paul289
As a conservative, it is fair. They have done nothing to stem the tide of unsupportable debt.
ittybittyfeets
Yes!
delpharseven
Negative form of American Exceptionalism. "That won't work here because America is ." The scale thing 1/
stopfuckingswearing
"FREE HEALTHCARE ISNT FREE!!!1!!!" Someone in the cpmments.. Every Fucking Time.
lBramstrokerl
It's true tho. Most Germans are taxed at ~50% thru various taxes. What's the dif if you pay it to the gov't or to hospitals tho? I dont know
GiantRobotsRule
It wouldn't be a discussion of the merits of socialism without some conservato be/libertarian getting pedantic about the word "free".
imanatheistdebateme
It's worth pointing out that nothing is free, because there are people stupid enough to believe otherwise.
arbyssauce
Well it is if you repeal the 14th amendment it can be.
ReggaegandalfTheGreat
HUUUUGE?
GiantRobotsRule
Europe is white. USA has blacks & latinos, so socialism wouldn't work. Wait, that sounds racist...I meant "homogeneous" and "multicultural"!
SerialChillinSpree
We already are one of the most socialistic countries in the world and slowly going bankrupt because of it. You've heard of FICA right?
GiantRobotsRule
Payroll tax that funds Medicare (far more efficient than private ins) & SocSecurity which Americans by 71%-21% margin say is worth the cost?
SerialChillinSpree
The US govt is the biggest insurance backer of medical cost -which is why it is so expensive. SS is a pot being exploited, not orignl intent
GiantRobotsRule
Countries w stronger government regulation of Pharma/ins and broader govt coverage (single payer) have lower per capita health costs vs USA
GiantRobotsRule
There, that's better. Totally non-racist way to argue against stuff that works in dozens of other democratic countries!
wherearemypants
The same argument goes for "It works there so it will work here."
delpharseven
What about "This works there, here's the economics and social science why it works there, it also says it should work here."?
Beelsebooob
Not really. Socialised health care has been demonstrated to work in every place where it's been tried. It's not just a one off.
wherearemypants
Lol
delpharseven
really bugs me. "We can't implement Canadian style healthcare because we're 10 times bigger." Eh? That means you have 10 times the 2/
delpharseven
taxpayers to pay for 10 times the patients. "Sure Denmark can spend X on universal education, but we have Y times the population!" Argh. 3/3
quasiix
I always thought that referred to dif cultures having dif lifestyles, needs and priorties so how money and votes are spent differs greatly.
hardytardigrade
My least favorite is when they invoke race, as if that somehow makes a difference. e.g. "the USA is a far more diverse nation..."
melodramaticbat
Yeah, and then they classify European countries automatically as 'homogenous'. Which is ignorant for so many reasons and means nothing...
tofudisan
The ligistics of government running a single system for 300 million is nuts. They can't even get the VA working right.
Beelsebooob
The logistics of running a single system for 300m people are no different than the logistics of 4 systems for 80m, plus 1 manager.
delpharseven
No the logistics for running the 4 is worse. But I agree with the point you are making.
ikbenlike
Then each individual state should do it for the people who live there
ImgurMontoya
What about states that can't afford it? I live in Alabama and we are hundreds of millions in the red. Plus theres a lot of poor people here.
delpharseven
"That won't work here because America is ."
Beelsebooob
They can't run the VA right because the VA is not properly funded, not because it can't be done.
tryin2figureitout
The government already covers 60% of the country through medicare and medicaid. Or you could split the U.S. into zones and split it up.
Moghul
Maybe stop sending people to war?
delpharseven
Or being upfront and honest about the true cost of it. Separate line item on your annual tax bill for each war, to remain until the last 1/
eggmuffin
But it wouldn't be a single system. This is why you have those states you get such a hard-on for!
tofudisan
And then it would be 50 different systems. People then flooding one state with the "best" system.
hardytardigrade
Saying something "is nuts" isn't really saying anything. What exactly would the problems be, and how do you know for sure?
tofudisan
I worked in government for 10 years. Saying "is nuts" is shorthand for "it's really incredibly complicated to manage a program that size"
Sinth0ras
qick question I read VA serveral times here on imgur and could figured out what it mean. what does it stand for?
vitaminRmademefat
Veterans Affairs
Keairan
Except the VA got massively defunded. Hard to run an organization well when you don't have money to run it.
Lamplovesme
Yeah, thanks Obama! (sarcasm)
imonewiththeforceandtheforceiswithme
As someone who worked for HHS, it's all politics. They defund it to make it fail so they can give a speech about how shitty it is...
Wodenifferous
And about how they're working to kill this ineffective program to save The American Taxpayers money. –_–
zorock
I've always felt the main issue is Americas spendings on the military. Reduce that, improve mental health for Mili+police = good start.
delpharseven
A big part is also the wasteful way they spend. The US spends twice per capita on healthcare as Canada, for arguably the same level of 1/
delpharseven
quality. I'd say same mean, but lower median (ie. the rich in the US raise the average a lot). Just closing that gap would be $550B/yr of 2/
zorock
Also, public programmes that teaches good parenting, and what to avoid doing as a parent. Then you just need free tuition and you're all set
Capnrory
surely economies of scale make socialism easier with more people?
marylanddd
I wouldn't necessarily think so. It could, but there's also more bureaucracy with a bigger system which could have the opposite effect
delpharseven
Bureaucracy should scale linearly at worst. If it isn't you are doing something terribly wrong irrespective of system.
InboxMeYourGermanShepherds
Ask China
Couldnotwouldnotonaboat
No way, it's harder. You need more production and more area to fit the vast number of people. Just think of public transport in NYC
delpharseven
What? Cities are vastly more efficient economic engines. And the denser the city the more efficient. NYC is the perfect example of that.
AncientSeraph
I thought the same, but someone pointed out that diseconomics of scale is also a thing. Hard to determine where the optimum is, though.
khora
While it is true, you can always apply segmentation. Perhaps you could consider dividing USA into states.
YourNotFunny
I just don't want to be taxed 40% to pay for someone's rent when they turn down a job offer.
YourNotFunny
http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/germantaxes.html
TrapsAreIllegal
You do understand that higher tax brackets only tax the money earned passed the barrier. So 10% up to 50k, 20% on everything up to 100k
YourNotFunny
http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/germantaxes.html
TrapsAreIllegal
Thanks for proving my point? A progressively increasing rate applies the rate once you eclipse its barrier. It's a simple principal.
TrapsAreIllegal
If anything, only the extremely wealthy, say 300k and up would be charged the forty, and only on money earned passed that Mark
WhimsicalCalamari
In Germany, only income past 250 thousand Euros is taxed at 45%, the top tax rate.
YourNotFunny
http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/germantaxes.html
WhimsicalCalamari
Ah, so the next lowest rate is taxed from 50k up. That said, due to how graduated tax rates work, the effective rate at 50 thousand is 25%.
YourNotFunny
That's just semantics. The tax rate is 40%, when referring to tax % I'm not going to respond with the effective tax rate
TheOldNewSlowFast
I hate to break this to you, but you're already probably taxed pretty close to that. Add up all of your taxes. Income, sales, gas, vice, etc
Sheepyhead
Hyper-expensive health care and education is just privatized taxation.
Sheepyhead
Minus the system where the rich contribute more because they can afford to contribute more, so the heavy bills fall on the poor instead
berrysheen
You are so ignorant it's funny.
whoopsywoo
If you don't give them money they will start jacking cars or selling meth to get by so you are going to end up paying for the loser anyway.
YourNotFunny
The best argument against it for sure
jacquesrobespierre
And you'd have to subsidize a prison system/healthcare system to keep the homeless off the streets.
delpharseven
Or more likely just becoming trapped in homelessness. And it is a trap. People who could be super productive members of society are in 1/
delpharseven
there and there is nothing in their own power they can do to get out. Someone might think they are super tough and resourceful and they 2/
delpharseven
could fight their way out, well to that person, I got news for you: you become homeless you are fucked. 3/3
whoopsywoo
At least in the social Democrat system potential criminals are pacified enough to not commit crimes for money.
whoopsywoo
Also I imagine there is a social stigma for living off welfare that deters most people in society.
vampirehedgehog
Speaking as a Finn, the stigma here exists mostly in the minds of people who weren't brought up in those conditions. I was raised in (1/?)
delpharseven
People like to work, to feel they are contributing to society somehow. We're hardwired for it.
whoopsywoo
Also speaking of taxes, most of your income already goes to the military or the war on drugs. Vary little goes to healthcare or education
genericusername540321009876
Now for the real question, how much are you taxed annually
Ichoosethenicknamesaroundhere
You pay around 25000 € taxes per year, if you earn 60000 € per year. So around 42 % taxes.
UnintentionalMasculineMicroaggressions
25000, that would have to be taxes ( 13500 ) AND social security ( 11000 )
ICantThinkOfABetterUsername
Up to 8K is 0%, then it starts at 14% and goes up to 42% at 53K and tops out at 45% at 254K. But it has a nice system, as you pay taxes 1/?
ICantThinkOfABetterUsername
only for each block. Meaning your first 8K are always free, e.g. you earn 9K so you only pay 140 taxes, because the first 8K are at 0% 2/?
ICantThinkOfABetterUsername
and the last 1K are taxed at 14%.
philk
It builds up gradually from 14%. It's 42 if your earn more than 96k annually. 45 on everything above 300k and that's the highest it can go.
genericusername540321009876
Wow, it's really Awsome to see all this civil, fact backed discussion, great job imgurians !
UnintentionalMasculineMicroaggressions
it really depends on how much you earn, if you are self employed or not and a bunch of other factors
philk
Also, you don't have to pay any taxes on your first 8.472 € (9.5k $) And it get's higher for every child you have.
sumothername
Looks similar to 1950s rates in the U.S.
robdavy
Is that the real question? US is taxed in the middle, but Healthcare and Education will bankrupt people. Germany is tax higher, but 1/2
robdavy
those things are free, so more people do it. Your tax rate doesn't equal the success of your country.
eggmuffin
If you're going to be spending money anyway, what does it matter? And if you don't get sick? You pay for roads you don't drive on, right?
vl33rmuis
in fact: i pay for roads i don't use.but thousand other it. and if i need to drive one of the street: it'll be there,i don't have to walk 1
vl33rmuis
through the desert. same for illness. for god's sake: i hope I'll never get cancer, but if i get: i will still have my job,and the 2
vl33rmuis
treatment i will need, without getting in debt.i don't have to worry about money. no matter what happen:i don't have to worry about money
eggmuffin
Exactly. And this would be true for everyone. Everyone wins, everyone is happy.
eggmuffin
This is simply better for everyone. For some it's better than for others, but overall, the improvements are still felt.
Welkin
Depends on how much you earn. Poor people barely pay anything, while the rich pay up to 42%. Most employees pay like 25% to 30% (1/2)
itsaFUKINGjoke
except you don't get charged 42% on EVERY dollar you earn. you get charged like (example) 0% on 8k, then on your 8,001th dollar you get --
itsaFUKINGjoke
-- get charged 14%, etc etc, on your $58,001th dollar you get charged 42%. so if you make $58,001 you get charged 42% tax on ONE dollar, &--
itsaFUKINGjoke
--& still less % on the dollars made before that. you're not taxed 42% of $58,001. Does that make sense?
super3dcow
whoa, that's really interesting. I feel like that's a really smart way to do it though. Doesn't screw people that barely go over.
Welkin
If you have kids you also need to pay less. But the health insurence isn't payd with the taxes, its seperate and 15% of your income. (2/2)
ScoreQuest
http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/germantaxes.html
ooshwiggity
14%-42% is a wildly huge difference...but as long as you can afford to live and play on what's left, it can't be too bad.
[deleted]
[deleted]
discowitch
I'd say you make it up in free healthcare. It seems cancer can bankrupt you in the states
TheFeralDog
Nah I got good insurance that covers that, for less
discowitch
Nice for you
SomeonesDog
Does it give you free tuition to universities too? 'Cause the taxes gives that as well.
PleaseSitOnMyFace
42% tax if you make over ~58,000 USD?!
biscuitfarmer
Not really, I'm over 58k and it ends up being low 30%ish
SchmidtyC
Is that incredulity at it being high or low? Considering many things are taken care of, most of the rest is true spending money.
OtherRichard
No its not. Yes education is taken care of, so is healthcare but Rent, utilities, car payment, food etc. aren't.
SchmidtyC
True, but housing (even in urban areas) is much cheaper. Cars are smaller and often cheaper, and besides, the 42% is only a certain bracket
PleaseSitOnMyFace
I think high, but who knows. I know If someone in the state of Missouri in America makes ~ $120,000 they would be taxed roughly 1/2
PleaseSitOnMyFace
28% with state and federal tax. That is a non maried person, with no dependents, before tax refund which depends on your deductions 2/2
mittag
Plus higher healthcare costs, extra investments in pension etc. Still, with such high income it makes more sense to live in US.
jeffreybaratheon
Yeah but consider what percentage of your income these other costs make up anyway. A lot of my friends spend 30-50% just on student loans.
PleaseSitOnMyFace
What school did your friends go to, Hogwarts?
robotzombies
Hogwarts is free.
jeffreybaratheon
Private universities are expensive. Mine was $45k/year just for tuition, not including housing, books, food, etc.
giraffes4justice
In the US you legally don't have to pay more than 10%. Takes longer to pay off but still.
mittag
Really? Can I have link with that? It is an interesting piece of information.
baronridiculous
That's the marginal rate, you're not paying 42% of the whole $58k.
PleaseSitOnMyFace
Please explain
baronridiculous
42% is the marginal tax rate. It's what you pay on the next dollar after $58k.
asterisk09
Meaning mathematically you can't make less money when you get a raise that bumps you up a tax bracket.
giraffes4justice
Same as us taxes, money over x amount is taxed at y%, then money over the next increment is taxed at k%