cutebytes
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Mar 4, 2022 5:45 AM
cutebytes
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theFIRSTroman
I don't think people actually comprehend how horrific even ONE nuclear warhead detonating in a populated area would be...
easyoneundone
not yet
kruttlapp
Short answer, no, not yet. For a number of reasons.
Excludos
Well, the powerplant didn't blow up. If NATO goes in, nukes have a significant higher chance of blowing up... What do you think?
RHodeidra
Nope.
Sinister992
Look at this checkmark NPC not understanding the concept of a global catastrophe
Norua
NATO involvement means nuclear war, so no, it isn't (and I live in a place that will severely be impacted if this plant goes to shit).
Seanspeed
It doesn't inherently mean nuclear war, but it does mean WW3 nonetheless, which makes nuclear war a LOT more likely.
Coeos
Tell me you want to detonate a nuclear bomb without using a nuclear bomb.... fuck Putin!
cenface
Didn't Germany annexe Austria and Czech before they went for Poland.. so Crimea, Ukraine? One more to go??
AdeptusBastardes
Nah, we're good.
N0S4A2
KittensGivePaarthurnaxGas
Indeed.
AnOceanOfStars
If mutual destruction wasn't involved, to hell with formalities, the psychopath would have been already eviscerated.
Seanspeed
Even without nuclear weapons, starting WW3 with Russia is still a VERY bad idea if it can be helped.
PhoenixfireUK
The attack was on an accommodation block for workers, not the actual nuclear facilities themselves. However, it was still very risky.
variiation
so just a war crime then? not that i support nato going in but still...
PhoenixfireUK
Yeah, "just" a War Crime. At the moment everything Putin has initiated is a war crime in most eyes. The entire war is a crime.
theguywiththevoice
Does this count as "Russia launches nuclear attack" on my "Putin is a cunt" bingo card?
isthistrue
There are some schools of thinking that say that a nuclear war is indeed winnable. All you need is a very flexible definition of a victory.
idonthaveauser
I've been told many, many time that todays nuclear power plants are absolutely safe and we should build more.
applesforjuice
Because they are, and we should
InDogsWeThrust
Depends on the direction of the wind.
Titilve74
When Chernobyl burst, French President told his people that the nuclear cloud stopped at our borders. ??? Guess we are fine. ??
ohicanrenamemyprofile
He forgot to add "asking for a friend"?
HardDoseOfReality
Probably not. These peace keeping organizations aren't really any good for stopping things
mcalughl
*asking for a friend
PieForme
Not yet...fire is out
Doismellbacon
Good. I've sent that multiple places as well!!
GrumpyOldMillennial
The fire is out, but the fire was the secondary issue. The primary issue is the continued Russian artillery strikes on the plant,
Seanspeed
The fire is out with Russians in control of it. Stop the alarmist garbage, ffs.
GrumpyOldMillennial
Yes I can see how the Russian war criminals seizing Ukraines largest nuclear reactor is totally a good thing. Maybe they won't kill everyone
GrumpyOldMillennial
This time. I'm sure they have more important atrocities to commit like deliberately bombing apartment buildings and hospitals.
NOTFOT
Give Ukraine planes and iron dome defences for airfields.
IllegalAlienFromOuterSpace
Putin can't launch his nukes without starting WW3. so attacking and causing a nuclear reactor to meltdown is the next best option.
Seanspeed
That is NOT what they're trying to do here, ffs. Y'all have cartoonish ideas of what these modern nuclear plants are like.
Eidodk
Sure he can. As long as he doesn't point it at a Nato or an EU country, he can do whatever he feels like. Article 5 is a DEFENSE clause.
Youhavinagiraffe
A lot of people out really itching to start WW3
PalaverQuader
yeah. everyone crying for a "quick, decisive blablabla" ... impatient kids. just like antivaxers and antimaskers and racists. /1
PalaverQuader
"Im DONE letting the gov. tell me what to do" "uh we have to wear them ALL the time" " it has been ENOUGH tolerance" /2
PalaverQuader
if the gov. wouldnt tell them what to do they would eat Tide Pods, they never whore a mask ever in their live before but think they /3
PalaverQuader
already suffered eternally and they where never tolerant towards anyone but themselves to beginn with.
luminator
Salami tactics.
eightyearplan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salami_slicing_tactics#Origins
eightyearplan
KRicci
Interesting read, appreciate the link +1
procrastinatingagain
Putin seems to want to provoke one.
Seanspeed
No he really doesn't. The fight for the power plant is control over the area. That's it. Y'all are being super reactionary.
AnOceanOfStars
Not "seems", sadly...
softsuit
Damaging s Nic Power Plant just increases value of petroleum products, based on the Japanese Problem. It is how Germany got where it is.
[deleted]
[deleted]
LizardEnterprises
1/? Yeah no. He's desperate and flailing, but if he wanted to start a nuclear war without hitting the button personally (for some reason),
LizardEnterprises
2/3 He could just drop a conventional bomb on Tartu, estonia, and we would do the rest for him. But he doesn't, in any nuclear war scenario
LizardEnterprises
3/4 your second-best bet is to launch first, and pray the other side chickens out. Your BEST bet is for no one to launch, but to convince
LizardEnterprises
4/4 everyone you absolutely would if you had to. Launching second is your second WORST option, ahead only of launching not at all.
Doismellbacon
4Astaroth
He has no other option. Ukraine isn't giving up like he thought and the rest is sending equipment and his stock market is near crash.
jetact12
Exactly. We are on the edge of a knife. Its up to NATO and the allied countries to walk it. BECAUSE NUKES WOULD BE SO MUCH WORSE.
TheWombatStrikesAgain
There are some schools of thinking that say that a nuclear war is indeed winnable. All you need is a very flexible definition of a victory.
Titilve74
Yup... threatening, destroying, killing and WAITING on NATO to move and then say that they started this all... ??
goudist
I'm surprised they didn't push the no fly zones harder than the Sweden thing. Get NATO to act and look like dicks or not and look weak.
Seanspeed
I assure you there's nothing 'weak' about not wanting to start WW3. Y'all seriously have no idea how bad that would be.
goudist
No shit. I am surprised Russia hasn't hopped into their zones more as an attempt to dick wave or provoke something.
HellsHegemony
No fly zone means that no planes can fly. That would allow all of RU armor to move without fear of airborne attack.
goudist
Right. But what will the countries that declared no fly zones actually do? Shoot down aircraft? Did Sweden do anything earlier this week?
HellsHegemony
I believe they still use steps of escalation. I believe it can end in UN forces firing on RU planes; this would trigger the Mutual defense
goudist
So far every violation of the no fly zone has had 0 repercussions. As previously stated I'm surprised they haven't pushed that. Especially
UnattendedDeviant
If the nuke facility blew up Russia would problems 10x worse than Chernobyl. Lucky for them there's a very small chance this facility...
whitebbwolf
they didnt gaf the last time, what makes u think they d start caring now?
IAmDrBanner
That facility would not blow up like Chernobyl. It is designed not to. There was a very real danger of a leakage when it was /1
IAmDrBanner
being attacked, but it is nothing like Chernobyl. It has a containment and Chernobyl didn't, it has a system that needs action to start /2
IAmDrBanner
rather than action to stop, unlike Chernobyl and it had outside sources of water to cool it in case somehow everything else failed. /3
IAmDrBanner
Make no mistake, they shouldn't have attacked anywhere near it and it was a stupid move, but it wasn't going to blow up like that. /4
UnattendedDeviant
Maybe you misunderstood. If the safeguards were for some reason damaged it would be 19x worse than Chernobyl. But yes, it has safeguards...
UnattendedDeviant
...would meltdown. Slim chance from ahelling burt not zero. They are trying to take 20% of Ukraine's power away.
Seanspeed
I dont think they want to just shut the whole thing off, but I do think they want to control who and what gets power.
LordVulpix
In doing so they could force large parts of Europe to evacuate. The fallout will be catastrophic.
UnattendedDeviant
Yup. Putin would love to see that.
kadaeux
applesforjuice
Yeah you don't just shoot the fuel tank and meltdown. It's more like solving a rubiks cube and only if you fuck up every step correctly
audioknob
This!
tr26
Some people really don’t understand what NATO is and isn’t. It ain’t the UN, it’s a mutual defense treaty.
xoShiseUGA
In the end NATO is made up of member nations, they can do whatever they voted for.
idonthaveauser
Equally with the EU which is often mistake for Europe. It's like the USA and Mexico. Same continent, and if Mexico were (1/2)
idonthaveauser
attacked by South America, Mexico might request quickly becoming a USA state to enjoy it's protection. (2/2)
redditmcredditface
The EU is the Beginning of cooperation, and mutual coordination.
Lovemorhatem
Wait, you mean the thing that started the first world war?
tr26
I blame Otto, personally
Lovemorhatem
What, he was just a friend.
MrTay
Except nato has done exactly what people are saying many times before. Syria for example.
tr26
How many of those instances were tied to UN action vs unilateral?
MrTay
Most or all. I’m not saying nato is aggressive but it is not only a defense treaty. Nato does get involved in conflicts outside of nato.
teapartyyy
EU, Europe, NATO and UN are very different things. I wish people would just have a look on Wikipedia or something before tweeting stuff
sparkletempt
Lot of people fail to understand the bigger picture of thinga and the fact that they have little to no intel on what is being done
mattjs89
yeah a lot of people seem to think NATO will just waltz in and help, They are a reactionary defence force they only defend NATO countries
MrTay
They are but you are wrong by precedent. NATO has and will waltz in. It’s been done all over the Middle East notably Syria.
Shuckeru
Like an expensive suit of armour that activates once you get stabbed.
rossimus
Once the armor gets knicked*. Then the armor becomes Voltron and turns the stabber into glass.
Rasdwa
even scratched and then kills the scratcher
BigRobbo
Not to mention that even if they did decide to act against Russia... they would be declaring war on a Nuclear power...
iancarry
what is UN though?... not helpfull, thats for sure
tr26
UN does a LOT of good in their programs, but are often ineffective at security due to sec council members being the problems
BrianBoyko
In this case, an attack on the power plant could be seen as a radioactive assault on Poland (NATO member) and other countries in Western Eu
tr26
Nope
idonthaveauser
No, it really can't. We also can't see the CO2 emissions as a attack on the climate.
redredgreengreen
Yeah, but that's the point. If that reactor cooks off, it's going to kill a hell of a lot of NATO citizens.
tr26
Still wouldn’t be an attack on a NATO member
redredgreengreen
But what kind of precedent does that set? Kill as many citizens as you want so long as it wasn't intentionally directed at them?
tr26
I hear you, but I also recognize that Russia is justifying everything through ‘NATO aggression’ so sticking to existing rules seems wise 1/
tr26
rather than giving them something that could absolutely be interpreted as such. UN and individual members should act, not NATO itself.
PalaverQuader
always good to circumvent the "IF" by replacing it by "definitely" just so there is no chance in the equation.... dont like that math yo.
chaosundivided
if Zaporizhzhya NPP should happen to be so severely damaged that it starts to spew irradiated smoke, a straight westerly wind would have it
chaosundivided
in the lungs of Polish citizens in about 600 kilometers / 372 miles, and that's a NATO member state. had the UA firefighters not brought it
chaosundivided
back under control, it would have been down to weather conditions whether or not a NATO country would have been harmed by RU actions.
chaosundivided
so while technically sure they *haven't* attacked a NATO member yet, it was more down to luck and UA crews preventing it rather than design
Fredfinks
I lost my keys and called NATO. They were happy to help and sent a battalion around to look.
Asgarus
Did they find it?
Fredfinks
No, but i now have a US base in my backyard. Its a bit noisy but they provide decent security if anyone decides to break in.
Asgarus
Nice.
PalaverQuader
lol
damogen
It seems a lot of people also don’t understand what UN is. They will rarely do anything if not almost all countries in the world support it
JustDontCare
And some people really don't understand how Nuclear fallout works? I mean, if you Cause Nuclear meltdown in the middle of Europe
JustDontCare
ON PURPOSE, you literally kill hundreds if not thousands of people in NATO ON PURPOSE, Just like...an ATTACK?
Megameatloaf
The chances of this happening with a modern type reactor like the one in Ukraine is slim to none even with direct artillery shelling.
Megameatloaf
Dont misunderstand me, I wish as much as anybody that NATO steps in. But the reality is what it is and NATO has its own terms and conditions
JustDontCare
I'll take your word for it. as a European, I sincerely hope you're right.
Steffn
Why do you think they would be slim to none?
Megameatloaf
Because every publication I can find on the VVER reactor in question provides a surplus of evidence backing up it's built-in safety features
Megameatloaf
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319947315_Safety_analyses_of_reactor_VVER_1000
Megameatloaf
https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/41/043/41043110.pdf
Megameatloaf
https://www.osti.gov/etdeweb/servlets/purl/21514196
Megameatloaf
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1876610217335610
Megameatloaf
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00295639.2021.2009984?journalCode=unse20
Felberin
And if NATO steps in, as NATO. They kinda prove fears Putin's putting into their people.
PodolKev
You can literally find a page of military intervention by NATO on countries that did not involve any NATO countries.
PalaverQuader
still. just rushing in with blazing guns.. ever thought that we have to live here? on your little proposed nuclear shooting range?
tr26
Of those, how many were NOT directly tied to assisting a UN effort?
d0o0o0d
If NATO goes hot, WWIII is ON. You sure you want that?
Giantmutantcrab
The alternative is to let another narcissist with power invade Europe. You sure you want that?
tacosarejustmexicansandwhiches
If the plant meltsdown and/or leaks radiation that is carried over a NATO country what's the difference?
Seanspeed
None of these assholes here supporting this idea are in the military or would even join. Reactionary talk from worthless armchair idiots.
TwelveAngryMuffins
IMHO nukes happen or they don't. Why wait for millions to die and more invasions to find out?
PoppaBigBear
Does it look like I have a choice?
lutasch
If there is WWIII, we all could die in nuclear winter.
Muzzah27
I think that putin needs to be stopped, but making the decision to take us to war, is not one I want on my ledger
vbq8ytgxjx10
I think NATO should pretty much step in now against this man, war is here already.
CaptainxHindsight
Yeah I know ppl want NATO to do more but billions of lives lost in an instant would not be the way to go about it
DemSumBigAssRidges
It's at the door, and it won't go away. You think Putin will stop with Ukraine if he wins? Has any imperialist ever stopped? It's here.
Eli93
Whether we want that is irrelevant. What worries me is that Putin seems to want that. War is s good reason to stay in power.
FaithAlone
No, no one wants that. And Putin knows it, and is pushing the limits knowing the west will look for every excuse not to escalate.
LizardEnterprises
We've done a pretty fucking good job escalating so far. Limited, sure. To a line. But RIGHT up to that line.
KingofDucks1990
At the very least can we turn up the dial on sanctions? Stop Russia exporting oil and gas.
KingofDucks1990
I don't care that it will cost us more short term. It's a price worth paying for security long term.
onecowboytoo
It is probably better than whatever else 2022 has up their sleeves for us.
BrianBoyko
WWIII is already on. I'm already expecting a nuclear war, I know everyone will die. Question is now: Do we die with dignity?
pancakeEwokEscapade
Not enough people get this
Ikwilstroopwaffels
Yes.
lostlittletimeonthis
please watch war games and look at the end simulations to get an idea
Semphir
Yes. It's on. Putin will not stop unless stopped. This is how he want to go out. Before disease take him.
Tarumbar
Then everyone gets nuked on Oprah
farflung1
YoU sUrE yOu WaNt ThAt???
ArtOfKarolMichalec
Yeah, stupid question. Its like having symptoms of cancer and saying "Don't go to the doctors they might tell you you have cancer, you sure
ArtOfKarolMichalec
You want cancer???
UserWithoutUsername
Appeasement did´t work well with the other guy, you know, that one who rescued the opressed ppl. of Czechoslov.and later from Poland.
doesntmatter
Alliance spiralling didn't work out well in 1914 either.
TacoPoweredHelicopter
Why don't you list ofd Russia's alliances that would spiral...?
UserWithoutUsername
Had rusia kept the mouth shut, Serbia would had been invaded und incorporated in the A.H.Empire. Some other small nations would be absorbed
UserWithoutUsername
by the neighbouring empires. Then we would live in a world of 4-5 quarreling empires, until somewhere somehow they get to fight eachother.
theguywiththevoice
It's only a world war if battle takes place in many countries. This would be the allies shit kicking Russia back to the Stone age.
DanNTBK
Its not about the places of battle, it's about the nations involved
theguywiththevoice
Incorrect. If that was so, both Viet Nam and Korea would have been world wars, based on the number of participants.
DanNTBK
To be fair. Its both, so i stand corrected. Thats why korea and vietnam were not classified world wars. Participants yes but too regional.
zamfall
You sure you want Putin march all over the Europe and invade a country after another?
[deleted]
[deleted]
zamfall
I'm from Finland. And FI & Sweden aren't Nato members... yet. Putin just asked the neighboring countries to "not escalate the situation" lol
zamfall
Putin: "We don't have anything bad planned on our neighboring countries". Yeah sure, except that you just decide that a country is run by -
zamfall
- nazis and you just want to help & free the people. So yeah technically not anything bad planned, just the opposite!
powerrangerpl
appeasement / (əˈpiːzmənt) / noun / the policy of acceding to the demands of a potentially hostile nation in the hope of maintaining peace
powerrangerpl
Appeasement is what happens right now. NATO and the EU should stand up against the Russian aggression. Even if it means WW3. We been there.
FletcherGB
Appeasing Russia by annihilating their economy. Gotcha.
sassort5
Putin has the nuclear option. He's hovered his finger over that and said west should not interfere. That's prolly a good reason for silence.
zamfall
Putin's has threatened EU with nukes for 20 yrs. So, sadly, nothing new under the sun. It's already a shitshow, nothing's gonna change that.
sassort5
I'm not saying I agree with this sentiment, it is a hard question. But the west hasn't yet engaged, so there has to be some reason.
TheS4ndm4n
Yes. Let's just signal that if your country has nukes, you can do whatever the f you want. No one is going to stop you.
d0o0o0d
Why do you think North Korea built them? Why do you think Iran wants them?
LeroyJS
WW3 is already on.
neverscurdOG
Always has been
ColonelColon
No. You'd know it if it was.
LychFinderGeneral
This isn't World War 3, this is the Second Cold War
potatoispeople
According to Putin, nato is already involved. According to nato, they're not involved. So basically we're in WW2.5
MakesSenseSometimes
World war means multiple large military powers are fighting so that all surrounding countries are required to pick sides.
LizardEnterprises
No, its not. World war does not mean "European conflict with a large land area".
CubwardOHulihan
a war involving many large nations in all different parts of the world.
Voomit
He already treated Finland and Sweden
ccpr
Which makes it a European war so far.
DrWhy9
Unless they are shooting not a war
onlysingalone
No it isnt you melodramatic shithead
LeroyJS
Wait a few weeks.
DrWhy9
Still not
onlysingalone
Well in a few weeks when it is ww3, i will say it is ww3
DrWhy9
My geiger counter is not going off nor am I a pile of irridated bones with a malfunktioning geigercounter so no, not yet
wartoaster
You understand the first world war didnt use nukes yea
DrWhy9
You understand that a conflict between 2 countries does not make a world war? Yes even if other countries send equipment
wartoaster
Oh wow I havent seen this argument once ever in the past week geez gosh
LeroyJS
The whole world has mobilized around this crisis and the use of nuclear weapons is being threatened. It’s WW3.
LeroyJS
Just not our 20th century imagining of how it’s going to play out.
DrWhy9
So like the cold war? Which I think you noticed we did not call ww3
Megameatloaf
I live in a random town in Australia far away from any major city centre and even I don't want WWIII... And I'm about as low risk as it gets
AgamemnonsMemes
I'm in Perth, So i'm sort of okay except there are American's up in the north of WA
Aefinn
Can I become your new room mate? Asking as a Finn.
Megameatloaf
It's funny, for the last 3 or 4 years I'd been wanting to move to Europe as it 'seemed more exciting'. Yes, room mates are welcome.
Megameatloaf
I can't even begin to imagine being in a place that actually might be at risk of being a target of a nuclear strike...
d0o0o0d
I'm right downwind from the trident missile sub base at Bangor, WA. Not much point in prepping, I'll be ash if things kick off.
SoundFuture
It ain't so bad. I don't enjoy the traffic though.
JustAnotherVictimOfAmbientMorality
We all know the moment human civilization is broken, you'll be exterminated by Emus.
SecondSince
I for one welcome our Emu overlords! ... Overbirds?
johneventually1
Birdlords
CygloPargen
Hate to burst your comfy bubble there, mate, but you will probably not survive a nuclear winter if there's not enough sun to grow plants.
onecowboytoo
How much canned food do I need?
JustAnotherVictimOfAmbientMorality
Nuclear winter is hugely exaggerated tho, and would mostly affect the northern hemishpere.
johneventually1
Nobody lives there so we good, fam
Megameatloaf
To be honest... you make a good point. I didn't really consider the effects of mass nuclear fallout. Bummer...
johneventually1
Yeah no shit. The blast is just the beginning. Let's not let it start
Malikhi
Just got the sake of argument though, if NATO went hot all at the same time, and in a shock & awe format, it could be over pretty quickly
WGTBaal
Oh yeah it d be over quickly, as in the whole planet would be a lifeless nuclear husk
LizardEnterprises
Could you finish it fast enough to prevent a nuclear strike from going out? Because otherwise you've ended the world.
Malikhi
Yeah man, do it all the time in Civ V ;p
LizardEnterprises
And I'll give you two hints on that one. Hint 1) You don't know because that capability, if we had it, would be classified.
LizardEnterprises
Hint 2) Anyone willing to gamble on it without knowing is not fit to comment on ANY international crisis. Do shut up the adults are talking.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Goodmerlinpeen
https://media4.giphy.com/media/l4pTnnegezSUb1Hfa/200.gif
Squaba13
Paige no.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Toffeeaccident
At this point.. yeah, same.
SegyeJibae
better start moving close to potential target to get the blast, too far away and you'll live and somewhat survived.
[deleted]
[deleted]
SegyeJibae
based on declassified US document, the main target are usually capital city and military airbase. not sure if Russia follow the same idea.
HellsHegemony
JaromirAzarov
You do realize that most people in a nuclear war do not die from the blasts, right? You have to be lucky to be hit directly...
[deleted]
[deleted]
JaromirAzarov
I wouldn't count on receiving any special treatment. Good luck trying to call Russia to ask where they're going to drop the nukes...
[deleted]
[deleted]
jankeydadondc
Saitama2019
Will it still be WW3 if China doesn't join in? Russia won't last long if NATO goes all in.
LizardEnterprises
Russia will last exactly long enough to nuke every population center in America and Europe, save their own. We'll do that for them.
taurol
China will join at the end on the side of the winner. They will not allow the initial winner to conquer all. If NATO enters from the West ..
taurol
.. they will go on from the East and make some Siberian puppet states to secure the influence over the resources
shmoogeeoogee
What was the guidance on that for the last couple world wars?
Sharkbiscuit
I think its just a country involved from every continent makes it a world war... except Antarctica
WwwhyYouNoLikeMe
South America never joined ww2 - does that mean it was not a world war, or is south america not a continent?
dividebyquantum
Wrong actually - thanks to Sabaton (Smoking Snakes) I know that Brazil definitely contributed soldiers to WW2.
mksu
Nope. It's definitely not the literal and is much more of a statement about perceived geopolitical relevance of the participants.
BlueBarnstormer
Yes. Putin MUST be stopped. No next Hitler can ever be allowed. Nukes are an empty threat due to Mutually Assured Destruction. I have no
Jwhite777
If he is dying of cancer and wants to get into the history books as 'greatest russian ever' then nukes are NOT an empty threat.
Pimparoo3
Stop trying to start a world war for fucks sake. You gonna go fight it?
Ecne
yes but you are not considering some people might go crazy and press the button when they lose the battle
BlueBarnstormer
Are you considering my comment was about stopping him from marching across Europe? Would you let him?
Ecne
just saying we need to be careful with this dude, but no.. he will not go across the europe. i'm actually standing in his way in Poland :D
BlueBarnstormer
Good luck! But it appears these commenters dont have your back if he invades Poland.
ZippidyDooDa
The people of Russia is actually seemingly doing a good job of protesting him - pressure from all sides are better than aggression
smellsmiketeenspirit
MAD has been broken for some time now.
BlueBarnstormer
When? I dont recall any nukes being fired from Russia at the US. I must have slept through it?
smellsmiketeenspirit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction#Perfect_rationality
BlueBarnstormer
And? There is nothing new in that. If Putin launches he wipes Russia of the map. Thats not his goal.
gearsfan1549
PERSONALLY, im wondering how legit their nuclear arsenal even is, if theyre suddenly all out on the biggest plant in eu, almost like they
gearsfan1549
are trying to find a legit threat they can actually enact when the tantrums fall on deafer and deafer ears. id prefer we dont find out
Seanspeed
They've got over 5000 warheads. It doesn't need to be in super great condition to still be immeasurably dangerous.
ccpr
Look up the Nero decree. If Hitler would have had nukes, he would likely have used them in the last days.
BlueBarnstormer
So our option is to let him march across Europe and do nothing?
xstickman
MAD doesn't apply to Putin because he explicitly believes that a world without Russia is pointless, and that he IS Russia
BlueBarnstormer
Then MAD applies because there would be no Russia after that.
Carcer1337
No, the point is that if Putin perceives an existential threat to the Russian state (himself), he'll try and take the world down with him.
BlueBarnstormer
You mean Russia down with him. I know he doesnt care about the world. But what is his point if Russia is gone?
deadman320
WW3 will assure a much higher death count due to the jump in tech since ww2, imagine biowarfare. WW3 could do irreparable damage to humanity
BlueBarnstormer
No shit. So would a new Hitler marching across Europe. He MUST be stopped.
DonkeyOD
You MUST be stopped saying "marching across Europe" in every single post
BlueBarnstormer
No. He MUST be stopped from marching across Europe. Even if he throws empty threats about nukes.
ccpr
WW3 is going to be our WW1. A shocking reality check on just how deadly our arsenals have become.
tr26
All of your arguments seem to be quite binary and confident in things others with expertise are far less certain of. What’s your basis?
uououououo
When the fuck did MAD stop being taught as being a tool of deterrence? I've seen so many of you nutjobs recently. It's terrifying.
BlueBarnstormer
"nutjobs". For saying a new Hitler cannot be allowed to march across Europe. Your alternative seems to be "let him". Fucking nutjob.
uououououo
Again you are hallucinating! Another sign of a nutjob! Where did I say that? Nowhere, that's where. I just don't want nuclear death. Idiot.
BlueBarnstormer
I said a new Hitler must be stopped. Your only solution is to let him. You havent provided a single alternative.
uououououo
FletcherGB
Who's the judge of "next Hitler" though? Say China decides the next R pres is the next Hitler and the US needs liberating? What then?
LizardEnterprises
While most of the arguments in this thread are terrible, you have found the worst one. Grats. Calling someone hitler doesn't make it so.
BlueBarnstormer
What if rainbows fuck unicorns? If he marches across Europe he will be stood up to. Not doing so is pure insanity.
IwishKimPinewasmygirlfriend
Respect your opinion, totally disagree.
BlueBarnstormer
Thats the most rational response I have recieved. Thank you!
IwishKimPinewasmygirlfriend
Im in favour of brexit so I know what getting massive amounts of shit on imgur is like.
Seanspeed
So I assume you're in the process of signing up for the military right now, correct?
BlueBarnstormer
Your assumptions are making you look stupid. If you knew anything about me & my family history you would not type those pathetic words. GFY.
Ohffscantthinkofsmth
Guessing you dont have to go fight but stay inside behind your computer.
BlueBarnstormer
That is a stupid fucking guess and illustrates how little you know about me or my family history.
Hindrick
What branch are you currently in? Where generally did you deploy?
Ohffscantthinkofsmth
How should i know anything about an internet stranger lol. Im not gonna risk my life for Ukraine, call me selfish, idc. I wish them well
Seanspeed
What does your family history have to do with anything? Just cuz your paps was in the military doesn't mean you're somehow military, too.
BlueBarnstormer
Does it mean I wasnt, random internet stranger? Ffs that is one stupid ass comment. Have a mute and GFY.
NomDeImguerre
MAD relies on both parties caring about their people. Putin will ABSOLUTELY use nuclear if he feels cornered.
LizardEnterprises
No, MAD relies on leaders knowing that the first order of business in a nuclear apocalypse is killing anyone who allowed it.
BlueBarnstormer
No he wont. If he is cornered and losing he would need a lot people following orders for those nukes to launch. But they know they will die.
NomDeImguerre
That is dangerously naive. 1st, following orders at the cost of your life is daily military life. 2nd, RUssians are being told it'sthe West
NomDeImguerre
..that is threatening nuclear. So soldiers will absol;utely follow orders, because they'll be told NATO has already send theirs. ...
Mgbox
Mutually assured destruction only works on a level playing field. If Putin is doomed in battle, then it no longer makes sense
BlueBarnstormer
If he is doomed in battle who would follow his order knowing the next step is the total annihilation of Russia, and their families death?
tr26
Not watched much Channel 1, eh? Many would.
TrueLegateDamar
Why should Putin care about MAD? He's insane and irrational, and he'll order the strike from a safe bunker while the world burns.
BlueBarnstormer
I dont buy that for a second.
IPoisonedDorcasMutton
See, here's the issue. There is a 99.9999999% chance that Putin won't press the button. But the odds are NOT 100%. He might just be 1
IPoisonedDorcasMutton
Crazy enough, or he might just have a bad day and snap, or anything else. And that 0.0000001% chance is the end of civilization. 2
abidikgubidik
Putin is one of the coldest and most shrewd operators. Although it seems like he messed up here. Perhaps he expected Zelensky to flee
LizardEnterprises
1/2 Putin is definitely not insane or irrational, although he does want you to believe he is. He miscalculated here, badly, but in general
LizardEnterprises
2/3 he's one of the smarter operators on the world stage for the last 20 years. He also would not survive in a bunker. Like, I dunno if
LizardEnterprises
3/4 you're aware of this, but Vaults aren't real. We do not have closed-loop life support systems, and even if we did, he would need staff.
BlueBarnstormer
doubt Putin can not win a conventional war after this incompetent invasion. I also doubt any nations would risk taking his side. Even China.
RawSugarPackage
I think China is just taking notes.
Nubsva
With how detached from reality the Russian leadership seems, I'm not entirely sure the nukes are an empty threat...
narniasreal
Let's say Putin loses a war without using his nukes. He'd at least launch them when his back is against the wall.
BlueBarnstormer
He would need lots of people to follow that order. Not a chance if he was losing the war anyway.
Ig0rski
Might be a small chance, but its is a chance to lose everything and set the world back 1000s of years
raabsIn513
He needs to be quickly assassinated by his own people.
BikiniSamuraiBun
That is certainly a risk, but there may be some dereliction of duty when that order comes through.
Taalii
How many die for each officer who follows orders, count in millions. I want Russia stopped…but MAD is limited use with a madman in charge.
BikiniSamuraiBun
In the sense that knowingly launching nukes is tougher than giving the order to do so.
zeros000
No one stopped Hiroshima and Nagasaki attacks, so yeah lots of trust there even though i want to bet on the same as you.
tychog99
I mean that's what happened during the Cold War when that 1 submarine captain refused to fire the nukes
sambaah05
There are russian soldiers shelling civilians in Ukraine. I wouldn't make the same bet as you.
potshot
It's not an empty threat if Putin is fully in charge. Losing to NATO is death for Putin, and he's a solipsist. A world without Putin's (1)
potshot
Russia is no world at all to him, so he has little compuctions with firing nukes if he has no out.(2)
BlueBarnstormer
Its an empty threat. It isnt even a new empty threat, Russia and before that Soviets said it all the time.
sverebom
Hitler's last order was to burn it all. With nukes he would have succeeded. Putin has the nukes and nothing to lose.
BlueBarnstormer
And every soldier and general around him does have something to lose. Literally every human they love will be dead shortly after.
Seanspeed
Putin's high command is surrounded by extremely similar Soviet-era strongmen. Dont assume they're gonna be more peaceful/rational.
GadenKerensky
MAD means nothing to people with nothing to lose. If Hitler had nukes, he would have dropped them without care. Putin could do the same.
KAPTAINKAMIKAZEE
Putin absolutely would do the same, he threatened to launch them if NATO entered Crimea.
itscoldhere8monthsoftheyear
The Nazis had chemical weapons and didn't use them at the end of the war.
ccpr
Look up the Nero decree. I am not confident in Hitler not using nukes at the end of the war had he had them.
Dankking
That was before any treaties
Arcticstorm141
I heard in a interview poopin said "what's a world without Russia" but if he keeps pushing eventually he'll find out if he's serious
Arcticstorm141
Imo I wonder how his nation would respond to being shrugged off as collateral in his ego
thatwoodguy
Hitler experienced war gases firsthand in WW1. He didn't use them
BluePaladin42
Putin may feel he has nothing to lose, but his military staff and the oligarchs might think losing Putin is preferable to MAD
amyhadalittlepond
Which is why we have to act NOW because he will do it anyway.
Azawarau
If there is any chance he won't then we're better off waiting. If he doesn't that's great but if he does then waiting costed nothing
LizardEnterprises
1/2 Putin doesn't have nothing lose, in a WWIII scenario, he's dead too... which is exactly why he WILL use them if he thinks Russia is
LizardEnterprises
2/2 about to get nuked; You don't have nukes so that you can be a bully. You have nukes to make the cost of your defeat unacceptably high.
Shagrmeister
So basically Putin has now a freecard to do anything? What was the point of the arms race anyway..
Soggybathroomsock
A dick measuring contest. Just like the US can do whatever it wants, warcrimes and such, so can Russia solely because of the nukes.
JohnSmithterms
You contradict your own argument. Putin would never dare to use nuclear because of mutually assured destruction but he might.
Xerxes4242
So what happens when he loses the conventional war, his enemies are closing in, he has nothing to lose?
JohnSmithterms
We will find out won't we. Hopefully this ->
Tassyr
No, he's saying Putin is probably at the point of "if I can't win, everyone may lose." Until the maniac no longer has the red button, shit 1
Tassyr
Is going to be risky as hell and require a tightrope walk to navigate. 2
daromander
But if NATO goes to war to stop Putin then mutually assured destruction means that he will stop NATO right back.
JohnSmithterms
That is Putins choice. The people want to join NATO and they are free to do so . Now if NATO put missile launchers in Ukraine I would 1/?
minqapoc
Putin is not the one launching them. And the people firing them have A LOT to lose.
GadenKerensky
One can only hope, but if NATO were the aggressor, in their mind it could be enough 'justification'. It's a dangerous equation to work out.
minqapoc
Sadly, yes. But seeing how things are, escalation is probably inevitable anyway.
LizardEnterprises
1/2 I wish I could believe that but we came SO CLOSE to accidentally blowing each other up SO MANY TIMES. Firing the nuke is not what ends
LizardEnterprises
2/2 you. You deploy the nuke when you are convinced you are ended *anyways*, so that everyone loses.
Azawarau
Do you really want to gamble the end of countless lives on earth for that ?
1metalnation
Do you want to gamble all lives on earth if he is?
Bystandr
Sadly, there is only one way to check nuclear brinkmanship and that is to assure the aggressor of complete destruction and follow through.
Bystandr
Otherwise the deterrent is worthless and we watch helplessly while the aggressor uses the nukes in the knowledge no one will do anything,