divjnky
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A post of mine from a couple of weeks ago - https://imgur.com/gallery/too-big-to-fail-companies-need-to-start-failing-8rrEshH
In 2014 Boeing was awarded $4.2 billion for 6 crewed missions, SpaceX got $2.6 billion. To date SpaceX has successfully launched 4 crewed missions not counting their demo flight and has been flying successfully for 2 years now. Boeing meanwhile has once again cancelled what was supposed to be their first crewed flight. Boeing has ZERO flights despite being given 61.5% more $$.
Article link: https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/05/the-first-crew-launch-of-boeings-starliner-capsule-is-on-hold-indefinitely/
** Edited to correct math error.
WynnCreek
Imagine telling an astronaut their shuttle is a Boeing 🤣
cbale2000
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Blue Origin puts people in orbit for before Boeing.
dashriproc1
The troubles at Boeing started long ago when McDonnell Douglas execs took over Boeing in 1997 and focused on profitability at levels that compromise safety. Quality has steadily declined ever since until the disasters we see today. Source: I work in sustainable aerospace.
unluckyandbored
They're a defense contractor. What do you expect?
thesavagery
Relevant Last Week Tonight:
https://youtu.be/Q8oCilY4szc?si=oKbQU4gQyly-QEdW
Malinut
Boeing is prime contractor for the ISS and still responsible for it so of course they'll get a stonking look-in. SpaceX beating them down over flight says more about SpaceX than it does Boeing. SpaceX's successes have been quite astonishing; but that also can tinkle alarm bells...
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
there's always a need for competition, but SpaceX has a huge lead
njafo5942000
Boeing paying off congress to ensure more funding.
micuu
Don't forget the whistleblower hitman. That guy doesn't work for cheap.
marsipan
61.5% more than $ than SpaceX or 161.5% of SpaceX total funding.
divjnky
Thank you for that, don't know what the hell my un-caffeinated brain was thinking this morning! Edited my post accordingly.
Sakkura
The post still says 161.5% more...
thotterpop
Kinda related: If I recall, Virgin Galactic is also using Boeing technology (I think they're suing each other over it) for their space stuff... And I heard they ain't doing to well, either. But, I don't think Virgin is getting any govt funds.
rockmanx853000
Just to give some insight here in Southern California I worked at machine shops that did the two halves of the capsules and 100 of various parts for this thing. Came to learn that for some reason Boeing used a third party company to outsource the work instead of using their own buyers. All of these contracts were over bid and the budget was blown in no time. And still for all that work can’t get the damn thing right.
WeaponizedJerk
When I see people make fun of SpaceX because of their (well placed) hatred of Musk, I want to point them to this article.
JohnSmithterms
Musk is not responsible for this success. The scientists are. Fuck musk.
Sakkura
4.2 billion is not 161.5% more than 2.6 billion. It's 61.5% more.
divjnky
I'm clearly riding the struggle bus today - updated again 🙄
slinkiisu
Hahahhahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahhaahhahaha
slinkiisu
NOT TO SPACE, APPARENTLY.
zanarchy805
Yeah. Can we get our money back.
icer190
No, there were congressmen's pockets to line so that they could pay boeing more money to keep their construction plants in the districts.
The congressmen have already spent the money on vacations. Sorry.
HelloThere1812
And use it for what, healthcare? C'mon now. The US government will never, and I mean NEVER do anything morally right. Not even once.
prettydumb
lol
Gatorjon
Yeah, but it will just go to a defense contractor. Audit the fed.
mardukkur
People need to understand that the contracts are getting spread around because they're trying to create a launch industry and make sure nobody (especially Musk obviously!) has a monopoly over space flight. It's industrial policy, and it's good industrial policy. Unfortunately Boeing, once one of the world's great aerospace contractors, is now a flaming dumpster fire. But with or without them we must have competition in launch services.
divjnky
Agreed, we need multiple options and I understand and agree with that completely. But the option that we the taxpayers are getting seems to be trouble prone at best. At the end of the day it seems like we've paid more money to Boeing for an arguably inferior product.
mardukkur
100% worth it to pay more for less until a fully competitive industry is established. Boeing might not end up one of the successful companies though.
kuriosly
unlike spaceX at the time, Boeing had a history of making successful rockets. For example, the minuteman ICBMs.
brassmule
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/icbm-test-failure-nuclear-modernization/ - Minuteman IIIs are made by Boeing.
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
> they're trying to create a launch industry and make sure nobody (especially Musk obviously!) has a monopoly over space flight
Ackchooly, putting high paying jobs in selected congressional districts. https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/01/so-long-richard-shelby-and-thanks-for-all-the-pork/2/
mardukkur
Pork is pretty much 100% good.
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
How so? It puts work where it's not necessarliy optimal. In fact it's driven costs up by splitting work among contractors and locations.
mardukkur
Determining where work is “optimal” in practice is generally a fool’s errand. In the meantime horse-trading pork projects is the ideal way to resolve political deadlocks that arise from ideological conflicts and dramatically reduces gridlock and polarization. The collapse of congress as a functioning body can be traced pretty directly to anti-pork & anti-earmarking efforts.
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
They could go with a single chief contractor and let them subcontract as they see fit to control costs. At this point it's closer to administrative malfeasance than to political disagreement, as the jobs go to the committee member's congressional districts.
acausal82511
I'm mean, fair. I'd hate to see the door fly off that one
evildadunit
The death started with Mulalley
quietm4
Does the door panel not work?
TheAziz
Not saying it's not gonna happen because it's Boeing, but where's the source for infinite delay? There's nothing on NASA site.
neutronparticle
It just means they don't know when they can retry again yet. The limitation here is that traffic to the ISS is limited by the docking ports available, each crewed missions takes up one of the ports for the entire duration of the mission, and the unmanned resupply pods can also remains docked for a significant amount of time. Since these missions are scheduled in advanced, it can be hard to find an opening on short notice, so they might need to wait for months for another try.
[deleted]
[deleted]
TheAziz
That's an article from last year.
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
Yes, and the delay and costs keep growing as you can see.
TheAziz
I think you mistook Starliner with Orion.
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
Yes, wrong link. I think they mean that they've delayed it multiple times and the new June 1 target is still tentative.
infiniteflux
Space X has received more than 15billion $ in government money.
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
Payments for delivered designs and services. Now bring Boeing's folder.
infiniteflux
they received 15Billion before they ever had a successful rocket launch,
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
Err... nope. NASA did save SpaceX from bankruptcy, but they'd already flown an F1 or two, and its development cost about $90 million. F9 cost ～$300M. And NASA wasn't giving free money - the CRS contracts had specific milestones for the money.
Br0doSwaggins
JohnnyricoMC
If it's Boeing, we ain't goin'.
Poppypoppoppop
"Was awarded" yea ok, we a bunch of 5yo and are just going to trust your words about that (F no. They lobbied hard to make bank on that, so basically paid for it)
DrLOAC
Dragon has flown 8 crewed missions not including the development flights. So a lot more than 4. Boeing has flown 2 unmanned development flights. This one was supposed to be the first manned flight and the last test flight.
saganworshipper
Comment is accurate
cbale2000
Thought that number sounded low.
divjnky
Not disagreeing with you but curious as to where you're getting that number? I see a number of cargo flights but only 4 crewed missions (not including the demo flight).
DrLOAC
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Crew-8
DrLOAC
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_spaceflights_to_the_International_Space_Station
Technically they’ve launched 9 missions to the ISS if you include Demo Flight 2 (which is the equivalent mission Boeing is trying to fly). We are currently on Crew 8 and Crew 9 will happen later this summer.
divjnky
OMG, thank you for the correction @DrLOAC !! I was looking at a different Wiki and counted the Dragon Crew vehicles in service, not the actual missions. Well that makes it even more frustrating.
jewson
There are 4 crew dragon capsules in service, maybe that's where it came from?
spattr
The issue appears to be the company name. It's the sound of a cartoon character bouncing a few times after a steep fall. Boing Boing Boing.
MightyMile
Remember that website Boing Boing? Pretty sure it gave my computer the herp a few times but totally worth it.
darthstormer
Careful with that joke, it's an antique.
ElroydIsGone
Honestly, if you write the (family) name in its original spelling it becomes much more serious: "Böing, Böing, Böing" ;-)
TheVampireDante
Also likely the sound a door makes after falling off one of their planes.
yalczero
Wow, the Boeing fanboys have been working overtime downvoting everyone.
AlfredDPrince
Used to be a Boeing fan. Now I'm working overtime upvoting everyone
Northwindlowlander
It's important to remember that NASA and the DOD gave SpaceX a huge, future-protecting contract at a point where they'd literally got one rocket into orbit then immediately scrapped that rocket, and had no proven launch vehicle at all. These contracts aren't just about "getting stuff done", they're also about building capability and ensuring that there's actual choice of future contractors. SpaceX are who you'd choose to get the job done right now but do you want it to be SpaceX in 20
Northwindlowlander
years? (this gets exaggerated by SpaceX fanboys who will shout and scream about contracts that are happening right now, but quietly forget about the equivalent leap-of-faith contracts that literally kept SpaceX in business at the end of the Falcon 1 days when the company would have been completely doomed)
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
Yep, F1 was more of a demonstrator in the end (not sure if the original idea). But now they have a ridiculous lead in their market segment and we're waiting on the competition to catch up.
ReturnOfActionCheese
Boeing can't even get an airplane to hold together, what person would want to fly in their spaceship?
Volpe42
That's likely PEBKAC though. They can't force the people who run them to maintain properly.
KuldFyt
People doing the flying don't get to choose. If they did, Boeing would be in a very different place today.
lurkyloos
Say more about this please.
KuldFyt
After the 737 max debacle (deliberately providing pilots misinformation about the controls to evade regulatory oversight), it is difficult to imagine pilots not cancelling Boeing contracts if they had the ability to do so, even in light of the overall aircraft production bottleneck. That would have seriously undermined if not eliminated their status as a major airplane manufacturer several years ago and may have prompted a review of government contracts due to bankruptcy hazard.
lurkyloos
Thank you, quite helpful.
NSTK
"Funny" thing is after they got the rocket of the pad they found problems on a thruster, solution? tighten bolts.
g0atsmuggler8
I wouldn’t mind being a space ghost. I would haunt the shit out of random people via satellites. But if I die in outer space would I automatically go to heaven? 🤔
jethroismaxbaer5772
No, you host a coast-to-coast talk show on Cartoon Network.
TheS4ndm4n
The previous problem was even more silly. They had stuck valves. The root cause? They left the capsule out in the rain for too long and it had started to rust...
irrational1618
If you think a window falling out of a passenger plane is a problem, wait till it happens in LEO.
lackinglife
Imagine losing in quality control to something controlled by musk.
graifazig
Musk is not in charge of the actual science and engineering. Maybe one day we'll see a Cyberrocket, but not in the forseeable future.
jalexj
I think this post was from a muskinator (elon bot).
Icedpryo
The musk wranglers are worth the money I suppose.
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
Everyone has lost in reliability to SpaceX https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/02/spacexs-falcon-9-rocket-has-set-a-record-for-most-consecutive-successes/
AGrammeIsBetterThanADamn
Musk was okay when he was doing 2 things and not 6 things
EricPisch
Engineers admit they give musk shiny keys to play with when he’s inside so he won’t interfere with the real work, I wonder how they decide what made up shit they are going to give him each time lol
zenoshogun
SpaceX have people dedicated to keeping things mostly done right, a layer of insulation from Musk, i doubt Boeing has for their toxic C-suite.
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
I've heard that a lot but haven't gotten any verifiable citation (just a comment on Tumblr).
khora
But it jives with peoples perception of reality.
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
People's preferred perception of reality, which can be no better than any church.
mabbo
SpaceX survives because Musk is 'in control' but adults like Gwynne Shotwell are there doing the real work.
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
CEOs set goals and call some major shots. Otherwise you have the rest of the C-suite running things.
miraclemaxcoc
SpaceX has a dedicated "Musk management team" to deflect or ward off his dumbest ideas.
People with huge egos are very, very easy to manipulate.
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
I've heard that a lot but never seen a reliable source. Got one?
lljkstonefish
Falcon 9 block 5 has a current record of 281 launches and 281 successful missions.
They've attempted to land propulsively 289 times and succeeded 285 times. (Yes, this adds up - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf4qRY3h_eo&t=442s)
Musk himself has gone a bit odd (read: completely unhinged), but SpaceX is rock fucking solid. Thanks Gwynne.
anarchoFeline
my understanding is there is a person/team at space x that is responsible for keeping him from interfering in critical projects as much as possible
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
Understanding = believing hearsay? I've never seen a reputable quotation, but maybe you have.
AGrammeIsBetterThanADamn
are you waiting for a press release, or what?
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
of course there won't be one, but at least a known ex-employee or journalist with a reputation on the line, not some anon rando like you or me
AnonMasterRace
And then there's Starship which keeps failing spectacularly to cheers.
lljkstonefish
It's only "failing" in the sense that they've chosen to test until the point of failure. Every test has gone further, verified something new, given them more data, etc.
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
You mean test articles crash?
AnonMasterRace
april 20th 2023 and november 18th 2023 explosions and then march 14th 2024 which did launch but had an outstanding tumbling reentry. Also I seem to recall it being promised to be able to land on the moon by the first quarter of 2024. That's all 3.
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
Musk tends to lowball times dramatically, but again these are not production items. This is a ridiculously ambitious project that surpasses Apollo in more than one way, key difference that it's being developed “hardware rich”, by testing new things by actually flying them. Expect more crashes and explosions.
By contrast, SLS reuses some key components from the Space Shuttle, including a cheaper version of the RS-25 engine because they're now going to plop them into the ocean.
TheS4ndm4n
Gwynne Shotwell is responsible for that part. Musk just sets the (very ambitious) goals. And she's damn good at her job.
Isthe4thtimethecharm
It is my understanding they kept the right amount of control away from Musk in SpaceX. Or he actually realizes he isn't a rocket scientist.
LittleRobot71
I think it's more that Gwynne Shotwell kisses his ass and abuses her employees enough that he trusts her to run it. And despite her being an ass, she's vary competent. Ontop of that they have a lot less politics to deal with. And delays means loosing money, unlike Boeing.
allhisdarkmaterials
Shotwell? Wasn't the Boeing Whistleblower Shotwell?
hotaru251
exactly. Musk is basically the piggy bank not the engineer.
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
where space is concerned, the piggy bank matters a lot, but also politics (or the lack thereof)
TempyLOL
Don't like her. She fired everybody who complained about Musk, harassment, and work conditions.
TheS4ndm4n
Nice people don't become successful CEO's. A lot of them are sociopaths.
Hyndisfox
She may be an ass (and Musk is certainly an ass), but you can't argue with the results. SpaceX is a wildly successful space program.
BeverlyHillsBillie
Boeing was a great company before the bean counters gained control.
tarataqa
seekingdaedalus
FWIW: the bean counters are always - always - in control. It's just when they decide to stop listening to engineering that it becomes obvious.
MAN9000
I don't think that term means what you think it does. Actually, the bean counters, accountants, would require results. It's the wild management for profit that has ruined Boeing.
Flareside
A lot of companies are decent before finance and marketing get control.
NomadFeetWanderingToes
I work for a small'ish health tech company and we were bought by a MUCH bigger one. It's been downhill ever since when the bigger company corpos took over. They discontinued our flagship product to force customers to pay for the "luxury" unit and it backfired. A year later, they announced plans to develop a replacement for the discontinued product and have def lost sales opportunities over it. Greed is self-destructive.
KaJuN
"I;m thinking about thos Beans." - Boeing
marsgoose
They get most of their revenue from the taxpayers handed to them by politicians. They are not in the business of making airplanes, they are in the business of lobbying and being a welfare queen.
ScootiePuffJrSucks
I hate seeing this in history. Even if a large company is run ethically in the beginning, hitting every human goal post and succeeding, those in charge will one day die. Even if they've groomed a protégé, they will die and the company will be sold or publicly traded and start grinding orphans for the share holders. I really dislike capitalism.
CrispyNougat
Number must go up!!!
OverpricedCrayon
I was gonna say, how has Boeing fucked up so bad so consistently? I don’t remember them being this stupid when I was younger.
Bawdiepie
Bad management took over.
https://prospect.org/infrastructure/transportation/2024-03-28-suicide-mission-boeing/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR17C8LUrzlOsLBu572oANeja12WAPOWlBC2r3clUIjfXcaRZWbNdcznzak_aem_AWbMCaSV3VNJkv0crJtwqorJh4B_2ZmmceBn0hrkb8ik3K-cX_Fm3jofJI9rYhoUE0MXLafKYMLVrE-MRf4nAMOG
bvbowalrus
My god how many companies and industries could we say that about!!?
jimmac91
actually they fired all the bean counters and arent counting them beans any more. they are just writing bigger and bigger checks to the execs and shareholders, until the company fails then they will ask the govt to bail them out.
CameraMonkey
I hear the doors and wheels falling off didn’t really help them either.
OhIfIMust
That's capitalism for you.
Sixsystems
McDonnell Douglas bought Boeing with Boeings own money.
SarcasticComment
worse. accountants are employees, the fault is with corporate executives and their insatiable greed.
WorthEveryPenny
The made the accountants the head executives. That's what we mean. Same thing happened to IBM. No product, service, or innovation in charge, just accountants moving numbers and burning the company for short term paper gains.
TheS4ndm4n
The current executives are all finance/accounting/business majors. Before the merger, Boeing executives were mostly engineers.
gypsyspot
finance and business backgrounds can work well if they have good leadership with a proper understanding of the company and with the correct priorities. but quarterly profit over quality is short sighted. take away corporate bonuses and paid benchmarks
shakefu
Or just make it illegal for 99% of an executive’s compensation to come in the form of stock options. Right now they only have incentive to pump their own stock as much as possible to sell and move on to the next company.
THEdrakespirit
The problem with business and finance leaders in this case is they didn't understand how critical each component is. They began to make the company lean, and attempted to streamline things that were already streamlined
darthnerdus6236
Best we can do is end stage capitalism.