DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
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The Battle of Mosul is over and all Islamic State terrorists have been cleared from the area. Iraq’s second largest city and home to 900,000 people lie in ruins. Mosul joins Aleppo, Raqqa, Grozny, Hue, Stalingrad, Warsaw, and countless other cities destroyed by costly urban combat. The victory at Mosul does not look like a victory at all. Why is urban warfare so bloody? Why do the most well-equipped and powerful militaries fail in cities, and why are cities destroyed to be saved? In this post I’ll explain in layman terms the nature and difficulty of urban combat.
Urban warfare will become increasingly relevant in the 21st century simply because changes in our economy and technology encourages people to move into cities and other densely populated areas. The United Nations estimates that by 2030 more than 60% of the world will live in urban area. In the past, armies could simply avoid unfavorable terrain like cities.
The Battle of Stalingrad is the biggest and bloodiest urban battle in history, and it is a good case study since an abundance of first-hand accounts exist. Diaries and such written by troops on both sides offer a very insightful view into fighting in cities. The German troops bitterly called their defeat Rattenkrieg, ‘rat war’, where the three-dimensional and heavily cluttered environment degraded the ability to conduct large sweeps.
The complaints from German troops in Stalingrad were unsurprising. The terrain allowed Soviet and German troops to interweave, German tanks, artillery and air support couldn’t fire without killing friendly units. Soviet troops lurked everywhere, forcing Germans to blow the shit out of every building where they saw movement. Armoured vehicles couldn’t bring their guns to bear fast enough, and enemies attacked the weaker side/rear armour of tanks because the buildings and narrow streets robbed tanks and other heavy weapons any fire superiority.
Stalingrad didn’t demonstrate a Soviet strength, it demonstrated how the enviroments helped to remove or inhibit the German strength, namely the good training and experience of the Wehrmacht officers, and the coordination between infantry, vehicles, artillery and air support which has previously allowed Germany to defeat the French and the BEF. Armor, artillery and aviation are restricted in their usefulness. Which is why a relatively weak force can fight off technologically superior armies in urban areas because heavy weapons are ineffective in confinement.
January 1994, Some 10,000 Chechen rebels thrashed 38,000 mechanised Russia troops in Grozny. Despite overwhelming technological superiority, the Russian forces suffers a complete breakdown and it’s ‘victory’ over Grozny could be barely described as a victory at all. Badly trained Russia troops used heavy weapons like rockets and even anti-air chain guns on suspected Chechen positions. So much civilians were killed that the neutral population and even pro-Russian rebels turned against the Russian troops. Tank units got lost in the streets of Grozny where many road signs were switched/removed to confuse Russian troops, Once again tanks and IFVs were unable to fire back at enemies hiding on rooftops or flanking their sides, only anti-air guns and large amounts of artillery could solve this issue, contributing to 7,000-10,000 civilian deaths.
The Second Battle of Grozny was much more successful. Russian forces learnt from their mistakes and focused on protecting their vehicles and making infantry units more mobile. Instead of large columns of armored vehicles, Russian troops advanced slowly in small squads, artillery was made to respond rapidly and accurately in case heavy resistance was encountered by infantry.
For a professional military, there are basically two approaches to fighting in cities. The first is room-to-room fighting, first pioneered by SWAT teams and special forces but now also practiced by regular troops. These ‘door-breaching’ attacks usually do not result in too much destruction but they do require accurate reconnaissance, i.e you need to know which room contains enemies, civilians or both. This approach can only be executed in a limited scale because it’s too costly for the attacking side and requires an unrealistic amount of information/intel to pull off. Training requirements are also very high, your average infantry cannot be expected to be as proficient as Spetsnaz troopers or FBI hostage rescue squad
Above: M1 Abrams tank removes a two-story house containing Talibans
The second approach is outright destruction, like the Second battle of Fallujah or Grozny. The city is isolated, as much civilians is evacuated as possible, and maximum firepower is applied to pressure and exhaust the enemy. With 90% of the city population evacuated, Iraqi and U.S forces fired over 5,000 shells at Fallujah and dropped thousands of munitions from aviation forces. Civilians did die and the losses inflicted on the Taliban were not as severe as initially expected, still Fallujah was a success on its own.
U.S 155mm artillery supporting Marines during the 2004 Battle of Fallujah.
The high population density and complexity of cities highlights a weakness particularly from the attacking side. There are traditionally very few weapons that lies between a bullet and a salvo of artillery shells. In recent years, the advancement in electronics has resulted in guided munitions much smaller than their predecessors. The Israeli mini-spike missile weighs only 4kg, intended to destroy a room without bringing down the entire building. U.S 40mm grenades are currently tested with a laser-guidance kit, allowing troops to attack enemies behind cover without having to resort to artillery or Hellfire missiles from helicopters.
Guided munitions are becoming increasingly accurate and compact, allowing the attacking side to strike in confined environments.
Militaries involved in urban combat are also heavily reliant on engineers. The need to construct barriers and traps, and to remove ones constructed by enemies. Knowledge of civil engineering will be critical to military operations in dense urban terrain. We learned the hard way in Iraq and Syria how infrastructure destruction hampers the movement of troops and creates choke-points. Cities means countless opportunities to deny mobility and breathing space, the vast amount of concrete, bricks and steel provides ample raw material for the construction of barricades, covers etc.
Above: Israeli armored bulldozers and combat engineers have been in high demand, used to clear roads from rubble or mines, and to create holes in buildings without resorting to explosives or risking soldiers attempting to breach walls.
Then there’s the presence of civilians, which are not and cannot be completely evacuated in time. If the defending side is nasty like ISIS, they’ll hold civilians as human shields too. Fallujah and Stalingrad saw most of the civilians flee before the onslaught, Berlin and Grozny was a different story. A clash in the mountains of Afghanistan or in the steppes of Russia results in thousands of military casualties but few civilian deaths, Urban warfare can result in more many more civilian deaths, especially when the aforementioned ‘second approach’ is used. 1,500 insurgents were killed at Fallujah, while civilian deaths estimates range from 700 to 2,000. Grozny was bloodier, the Royal Danish Defence College estimates 35,000 civilians killed or wounded in comparison to 14,000 military casualties. Civilian deaths are just about the worst thing that can happen to leaders directing a war, it causes all kinds of heated arguments and outrage from the general public, it turns the local population against the actors involved, and most importantly it is awfully immoral. The high density of civilians highlights the importance of developing small guided munitions and dependable military intelligence.
Side note: Starting in the 1980s, it was often claimed that 90 percent of the victims of modern wars were civilians. These claims include refugees and IDPs (Internally Displaced Persons) as casualties. The proportion of civilian deaths and severe injuries during conflicts since 1980 range from 50% to 74%, according to Sivard, R. L and Echhardt, W.
Above: The Great Mosque of al-Nuri in Mosul, or whats left of it after the Islamic State demolished it. Reconstruction costs for Mosul is estimated to be at $1.5 billion USD.
General William Tecumseh Sherman said war is hell, and urban warfare is the ‘ninth circle’ of hell. What began as a paradox during WW2 became familiar during Vietnam, and urban warfare will only grow in relevance in the 21st century. Cities are destroyed so that one side may occupy them.
Credits to Major J. Spencer, U.S Army infantryman and a scholar at USMA for providing the bulk of this information. Thanks for reading, and check out my gallery for more stuff on military aviation, international politics etc.
kittybuttwiggle
Instructions unclear, got dick stuck in city
realAlBundy
Great post @op.. You should try and learn something about the heavily close quartered battle of Rio, which is happening now in Brazil...
emperortrajan
This is excellent! I love stuff like this with obvious tedious research from someone on the field. Great post OP
Cr1spyEvergr33n
Do you have any info on the siege of Sarajevo? I feel like that may have been relevant to this, although slight differences in action.
Exactually
#9 looks like a Nerf toy
YoureBeautifulandSomeoneLovesYou
@OP I think you'd enjoy listening to Jocko podcast. He was a Seal during the battle of Ramadi, talks a lot about his combat experience
edgarbird
War is the fucking worst, but I always upvote informative posts. Have your fake internet point!
yourmotherandIthinkyoushouldmoveout
There's fun, then there is kicking in doors fun!
cogs
Read Marko Kloos' first book of his recent series. Set in a future, science fiction milieu, it's a good representation of urban warfare.
Jlh19
Can you be more specific, I'm def interested
cogs
It's a series called Frontlines, available on Amazon. "Terms of Enlistment" is the first, eight bucks for Kindle. Reasonably accurate.
LuLuPennyAndOdium44
The new Fallout looks amazing!
survivor686
I hate to be that guy, but: the Taliban were restricted to Afghanistan, not Iraq.
JoeyLock
Also the plural of Taliban insurgents aren't really "Talibans" as the caption says.
TormentedPenguin
That is why their losses were not as high...duh
Withywindle508
Thank you, I noticed the same miatakes.
DemonicSpud
The irony
LongCommentChainAppreciator
I too noticed miatakes
LocoInfidel
"M1 Abrams removes two story building" is my favorite caption ever
CidColetti
Hell of a post. Kind of the definition of Pyrrhic victories.
elethomel
a valid point, but mostly irrelevant to victorious occupation forces from a country on the other side of the world
CidColetti
Good point. Although that thought had occurred to me when I posted that.
Treblaine
This is why the concept of the "Open City" was developed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_city to avoid a pointless bloody street battle.
Treblaine
The idea is that armies would fight in the low-population density farmland and wildlands and not retreat into cities if they lose.
doesnotexistanymoredeprecatedaccountthanksforthememories
Kinda sad.
Carrera26
Yeah, didn't Sarajevo used to be called the 'Paris of the East'? My step-dad talked about how beautiful it was before the conflict.
dplague
Right? All these once great cities thousands of years old are coming to an end and the loss of life is traumatic.
TheAmazingPencil
Not only the cities, but the people. Ask any Iraqi above 70 what it was like in the old days and you'll become a historian within minutes
GadenKerensky
Urban Warfare will see the proliferation of Hard/Soft-kill Active Protection Systems like the IDF Trophy in the coming years.
ActuallyBaffled
Great job. I love phrases like "maximum firepower is applied".
DrunkAgainstMadMothers
War is a hell of a drug
Thismanneedsaname
The most addicting ever.... "lest we grow fond of it"
professionalpootalker
I was in Warsaw not long ago, guide was saying how the reconstruction of the city is now internationally known as the best way to rebuild 1/
professionalpootalker
After urban warfare, they did a pretty good job but you could see that it was missing that historical feel most European cities have.
dandydust
Stalingrad was the costliest battle ever, in or out of cities.
dandydust
And I guess it's right that single battle didn't show that the Soviets could win. The battle from there to Berlin did.
Rabh
That last paragraph about the Stalingrad is not true, Stalingrad absolutely displayed Russian superiority
kraeftig
Drive through the city announcing non combatants have x days to evacuate. Then just level the city. You're going to destroy it anyway.
szepasszony
Mosque before destruction: https://img-cdn.advisor.travel/fs1000x800px-Great_Mosque_of_al_Nuri_1.jpg
Ballistic09
Both you and the OP are wrong lol. Yours is the Khalid ibn al-Walid Mosque in Syria, and OP's is the Mosque of The Prophet Jirjis in Mosul.
skyshadow
Well, at least OP's is in Mosul. Not like *cough* sarin tubes *cough*
szepasszony
Thank you for letting me know, I've never seen that mosque. I guess the photographer named the photo incorrectly.
bryguy85
Is that Osgiliath?
Cucumberclouds
Thanks for sharing. Do you think this type of warfare had paved the way for modern terrorism? Or has terrorism always been like it is now?
Astramancer
Modern terrorism requires modern tools. It was almost impossible for one man to inflict such disproportionate damages even 200 years ago.
Withywindle508
As OP said, terrorism has been around since antiqity. Access to technology has asymmetrical warfare, which is what terrorists use.
Cucumberclouds
That makes sense. I guess they have the underground community and disenfranchised youth to feed their cause.
Withywindle508
Created*
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
Terrorism has always existed, but modern terrorism is dependent on modern communications/media technology and high population density
TachyonCode
"Modern terrorism" meaning non-state actors, I assume; the traditional definition being "that done by a government".
ThoughtfulSatan
Yup, they can't win in open terrain against conventional armies, we have much more freedom to act out there.
GadenKerensky
Especially from air units; Terrorists do not want to be caught even in the hills by an Apache.
RacecarRoadcar
Or even a trainer used as a light attack aircraft.
endrsgm
not really. terrorism just requires the story gets out. people have been committing atrocities and terrorism for as long as man existed
endrsgm
you dont need a high pop density either. in fact that doesnt matter. all you need is the ability for what you did to get out and be news.
Ervaine
The Gaza wars is an (Classic/Tragic/controversial) example of urban warfare in this conditions .
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scrim4
The Viet Cong was mostly a guerrilla force that would occasionally resort to terrorism. And after the Tet Offensive, they basically ceased..
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scrim4
Frankly, an invasion of Iran would be a very quickly won battle that could be fought without major urban warfare. With the lessons of Iraq..
scrim4
...so fresh in mind, the odds are that the subsequent occupation would be well enough managed that little in the way of an insurgency would
scrim4
...to exist, and so the few surviving units were incorporated into the regular NVA units operating in S. Vietnam. I.e. the VC lost.
Withywindle508
I cannot speak to the accuracy of the tactical information, I am not a military operator. But I am familiar with the militants and actors1/2
Withywindle508
2/? involved in modern urban conflicts in the middle east, and I see just enough error to make me question the rest of the content. There
Withywindle508
3/3 were no Taliban involved at Fallujah, for example.
RacecarRoadcar
OP already admitted to the mistake.
CryptBeast
The first and second battles of Grozny lasted the exact same amount of time and had the exact same outcome.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
Outcome...debatable but the proportion of Russian losses is definitely lighter according to Reuters and IWPR
CryptBeast
Most losses in the 1st were due to the initial attack when no resistance was assumed. There were no armored columns after that.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
I agree the latter two weeks of the battle were better executed. But Russians admit to 1,300 killed so the truth is probably a bit higher
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
Correct, but I'm using phase one of the first battle to illustrate how they screwed up and changed tactics accordingly
CryptBeast
They didn't screw up - they assumed they wouldn't have to fight at all. When it became clear that there'll be fighting - they started. 1/
Treblaine
That assumption was where they screwed up.
CryptBeast
The initial "armored column" thing wasn't a military assault. It was a replay of the assault on the Parliament in Moscow the year prior 2/
Raz0rking
so..which modern day army would be most suited for urban combat? I'd say the IDF
Tempcore
They certainly focus heavily on it, but so do many nations to be fair. In the end, we don't want to find out who's "best" at this bullshit
Raz0rking
don't worry i won't throw tantrums about "who is/had the bestest dick ever". i just want to discuss.
nopost
Arguably the IDF, as (despite what some would have you believe), they really do give a shit about civilian casualties. They don't do the
nopost
whole "evacuate most civilians and then blow it to shit" thing. All Israeli infantry are trained to fight door-to-door, professionally, and
nopost
They also have the MATADOR shoulder fired missile which can be set to either blast a hole in a wall or destroy the room it's fired into. All
nopost
what is arguably one of - if not the - best urban combat training centers, which foreign militaries including the US routinely use to train
nopost
in all, they probably do one of the best jobs at reducing/eliminating unnecessary civilian casualties/random destruction. Oh, and they have
nopost
almost always with warnings given to civilians in the areas beforehand. Soldiers are taught not to burst into a room firing at everything,
nopost
they don't tend to rely on heavy artillery strikes. Artillery strikes and air strikes are always precision strikes on limited targets
nopost
but rather to go around corners and into rooms slowly, assessing the situation before deciding to throw a grenade or use other explosives.
banhammerofgod
What kind of hardware should be developed to help armies fight in urban areas then?
Janusha
Are you suggesting we need a further militarisation of police ??
Withywindle508
What does this have to do with military hardware to use in warfare?
youcansayfuckhere
Israel’s Trophy counter defense system is pretty damn good. Stops RPGs from short distances. they’re developing the ability to return fire
EauMineraleNaturelle
Dog shaped armored drones
Megarith
mask-breaching gas should do it.
Treblaine
Tactics matter as much. Means of making contact with the civilian population, and coordinating with them to separate them from combatants.
Treblaine
So technology that allows the invading force to liaise with hold-out civilians, and organise their rescue and protection from bombardment.
WilhelmII
Nuclear artillery
MEMRITV
The kind of hardware that the IDF has been getting since the 1st intifada, they have more experience in urban combat than anyone else
IllusivePanda
Terminator Squads in tactical dreadnought armor equipped with power fists and storm bolters
ThankYouMonica
Robot technology has been a pinnacle in ways such as swarms that can clear/recon rooms and buildings with ease and minimal casualties
Withywindle508
Like Treblaine said, hardware isn't always the answer. In fact, many of our guys and gals downrange express frustration at the fact that 1/2
Withywindle508
the folks making decisions just want to throw more money and more tech at a problem instead of more people, training, and policy support 2/2
TheDivineUsersub
Secular governments and education... oh, hardware? Uh... you see Ivan. Bullet, is friend.
JustANoobOnImgurWithOneCat
Russians came up with the Terminator tank which, well, terminates threats to their real T-72, T-90, T-14 tanks.
Lapkin
Russians also use their tanks as a mobile artillery platforms now. Grozny showed us that tanks are too vulnerable in cities.
JustANoobOnImgurWithOneCat
I think the Terminator is supposed to help in cities against RPGs;it's got lots of machine guns and rockets, along with the real tank's APS.
Nuttsy
They always did that, though. They designed tanks with the capability for indirect fire as far back as the 1930s.
JustANoobOnImgurWithOneCat
But Syria showed us that when used improperly, tanks are sitting ducks. They even managed to get hit in a T90 because they left the APS off.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
Small drones, non-lethal weapons, anything to deal with enemies in cover, sensors that go through walls.
Cucumberclouds
Are spies as useful as they seemed to be in ww2 and the cold war? Or is that approach no longer useful?
TheCloney
HUMINT is just as valuable now as it was 70 years ago, SIGINT only takes you so far in reality. Need reliable info from people within.
Maraak
Progress has been made in light and portable intelligence gathering, such as micro-drones. They're working on making automated swarms.
Maraak
Which sounds both really cool and really terrifying. Swarms of flying insect-like drones that hunt down anyone hiding in buildings o.o
banhammerofgod
I think some radar frequencies can penetrate walls and even detect tunnels
AceWarbringer
Usually short range though. Nothing like the new Robocop movie or predator.
Zaranthan
Detecting tunnels is one thing. Detecting the difference between civilians huddled in a room and armed soldiers lying in ambush is another.
Ervaine
Precision tools for tactical 'n accurate results and mobility .
Dedeurmetdebaard
Armored infantry and mechs.
HaraDaya
Bring on the mechs
GadenKerensky
Power Armour in Fallout would be lethal, if given the proper electronic protections and countermeasures, and supported by regular infantry.
ThaiMaiShu
Meh I think mechs would have the same problem as a tank, there's gonna be a weak point that the enemy can hit when the mech isn't 1/2
ThaiMaiShu
looking, and until technology drastically improves they still will have problems traversing their gun to where the fire is coming from 2/2
clawthewolf
DARPA is already developing armored exoskeletons for this. Look up TALOS
Nuttsy
For a "Heavy armour" role, refitting tanks into "Heavy IFVs" would probably do better than either of those, even in presence of rubble.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
I'm only an international relations student, some of the info regarding the tactics may not be accurate. Veterans feel free to correct me
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Gawky
thanks for mentioning it, just learned about it, so tragic
TacticallySignificantTurtle2ElectricBoogaloo
One mistake about Stalingrad, civilians were not initially allowed to evacuate. About 400,000 were still in the city when the battle began.
beergolem
In Fallujah you had a massive infantry operation (near 10000 strong) to clear the city. After initial intel / artillery / air (1/2)
beergolem
only a big infantry operation can take a city, if not the opposing forces will just move. You need to clear sectors and hold them. (2/2)
DieselBrother
I majored in IR and am in my fourth year in the Army, looks good to me @OP
bowtiezrcool
Oh hey me too.
waokwa4
Really interesting read +1
AncientPostNecromancer
The largest problem with guerilla forces within a city is that after evacuating 90% of the populace there is alot of food left. One thing 1
AncientPostNecromancer
That is difficult is de-entrenching an enemy with plenty of supplies.
Naseth
Graduating with my M.A. in IR this year, high five!
OPGotDatSack
Tovarish1013
No bullet for op today. Today...
OPGotDatSack
Opi good job. Op go to VIP gulag.
ALotOfPeople
I recommend you to document you about the french in Algeria and Indochine. Really nasty, but interested
Bassaker
Civilian deaths are nowadays above 75 % in contrast to 50 % in WW2 and 25% in WW1. Air raids and Urban Warfare are to blame.
CultureVulture
You can also look at the role morale plays in urban warfare; Tactics such as snipers, and slow troop movement being hugely demoralising
SamaelTheVenomOfGod
Not to mention battle lines, when there are lines at all, can seem to move mere inches at a time.
Maraak
Not a veteran, but the tactics regarding reinforcing civilian buildings and moving between buildings using mouse-holing. Interesting stuff!
Maraak
First used by British in 1916 Ireland, mouse-holing is moving from house to house by blowing holes in walls etc instead of using doors.
Maraak
Wish I had my old Norwegian Field Manual. Lots of interesting info & illustrations on urban warfare showing how vicious it really is.
eggmuffin
I remember that old thing. It was scary. And when we trained to defend buildings, we used every bit of it.
Maraak
Drawings of soldiers using holes in walls, floors & roofs to shoot from above stairwells, beneath beds & inside closets and such sneaky shit
stoffelbruh
This is a great post!!! And a field of studies I'd love to enroll in. What's the usual prerequisite?
PeteTusk
For international relations, or urban warfare?
stoffelbruh
IR, with a focus on the realities of war (which tend to be overlooked by most in social study fields)
PeteTusk
http://watson.brown.edu/ir/requirements
PeteTusk
Google "international relations degree prerequisites" but example info pages include:
PeteTusk
There are IR undergrad degrees that just require you to be an undergrad. Examples in next two posts (Imgur probably will show them above.)
TheOfficeAssistant
Ay another International Relations student... There are dozens of us!
CultureVulture
Dozens!
litro
With a word like "nasty" in the title, I expected you to go into how disgusting, biologically speaking, urban warfare can get. (cont)
litro
Fighting in cities means the burial of bodies under rubble and the destruction of sewage infrastructure. Compound this with the many (cont)
litro
wounds and little scratches people can suffer in this environment, and yeah... "nasty" is the perfect word for this type of warfare.
StankyPankySammich
Ah, I was political science with emphasis on law, but my IR class was so great. Probably the best ever I've ever had.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
My class includes a neo-nazi, two far-right nationalists, two communists and a Bernie supporter. Great banter and roasts.
thecomminator
That sounds like.... A pretty interesting class. Stories?
Huntergorh
Sounds like the start of a joke. Take them out to a bar sometime and tell us what happens
SkypeOfCthulhu
You forgot one thing when it comes to "smarter" weapons. The cost is often disproportionate to a grumpy insurgent with an AK. (1/2)
SkypeOfCthulhu
Which means that urban warfare is likely to remain just as unappetizing, being costly in resources (but less costly in manpower). (2/2)
ChalupaBatmanMcArthur
While it costs more per round, it's cheaper launching 1 bomb from 1plane and know youll hit your target than sending a entire air wing 1/2
ChalupaBatmanMcArthur
Dropping many dumb bombs causing collateral damage and still possibly missing the target. See Russian barrel bombs casualties. 2/2
JesseSlayer
Having just watched Ken Burns's Vietnam, im reminded of the stark contrast of the US blowing the ever loving crap out of the 1/2
JesseSlayer
Ho Chi Minh trail. The Veit Cong just repaired it with and tools and dirt. A pretty extreme case of cost imbalance.
parabolic000
Thanks for this. I'm planning an RPG campaign based around urban warfare and this helps me flesh out the actual conflicts.
Cptelectricfeel
Hey man, im actually in the middle of the climax of a Tabletop involving urban warfare. PM for ideas bruv
TheDivineUsersub
Sounds like a CoD player.
TachyonCode
You know, considering how many games accessible to the general public deal with tactics or strategy, and that infrastructure choke points
TachyonCode
have been common-knowledge since well before Starcraft, I'm wondering why it took military so long to figure it out.
TachyonCode
I mean, the thing you do in a traditional siege is you cut off supplies, communications, and access to resources. How different is that?
shreddedking
there are no taliban in fallujah
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
Thanks I just checked, they were al-Qaeda and Baathists
DieselBrother
I figured that's what you meant. I made the same mistake once when I was a fledgling IR student.
pgdave
Question - are you American? And how old are you? Cuz that seems like an odd mistake but I'm guessing it's just my background helping me.
GenericStormtrooper
He's Chinese I think.
DeathStarWasAnInsideJob
I'm Australian, 18
pgdave
Ah, that makes way more sense. I'm 31 - the two wars are very distinct in my memory.
paulnikola
point made nevertheless, good job mate, cheers
redditRocksMySocks
What is the difference between taliban and al queda? I thought taliban was just another term for them? (Serious)
WallpaperProblems
Taliban is more an Afghan Group, Al Quaeda is more international that's what I understand at least.
SupremeSuperKamiGuru
Taliban was a somewhat separate group concentrated in Afghan regions, more like a sub group of AQ. AQ is the larger international network.
pgdave
They're completely separate groups, like, they're as different as Hamas and ISIS.
redditRocksMySocks
Thanks all for responses
DizzleRizzle
Taliban is to afghans as the Baath is to iraq or Hamas in lebanon. 'Political' armed movement w hierarchy. AQ has more of a cell structure.