NorBdelta
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A Different View on the Wage Gap Myth
I am getting tired of replying with more sources so here:
UK Department of Justice on Pay Equality (no discrimination)
https://www.ofmdfmni.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/ofmdfm_dev/lessons-from-a-different-place-gender-pay-gap.pdf
EU Labour Commission on Pay Equality (no discrimination)
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/gender-equality/files/2007report_on_equal_pay_for_pub_-final_en.pdf
US Department of Labour Report by Consard: has mysteriously broken to only show first two pages
http://www.hawaii.edu/religion/courses/Gender_Wage_Gap_Report.pdf
So here is the US White House report on the matter
https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/docs/equal_pay_issue_brief_final.pdf
Some more factors to bare in mind:
2 to 1 positive bias for women now entering into STEM
http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360.full.pdf
Women tend to not negotiate as proficiently as men for salaries
https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf
Men prefer working with women more than women prefer working with men
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Laurie_Rudman/publication/8226295_Gender_differences_in_automatic_in-group_bias_why_do_women_like_women_more_than_men_like_men/links/0a85e5324b69af209e000000.pdf
UK ONS stats show that women now out-earn men between the ages of 20 to 32 http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_385428.pdf
Women now outnumber (60% women to 40% men) at University as well as outperform men at every level at University
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5417475/Women-now-out-number-and-out-perform-men-at-all-universities-study-finds.html
And finally to those impervious to stats and research
http://i.imgur.com/RLHsugk.jpg
benjim
It makes me mad that both Democratic candidates know this and still say we need reform for it (for the record, I'm a Democrat)
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benjim
I accept that politicians need to say things they don't believe sometimes for a greater purpose. The theatrics just piss me off at times.
Tippster
Apples to apples would be New Graduates applying to same job Male vs. Female offer.
TheImperiumOfMan02
It seems that women are favored tremendously in academia and public sector. No idea about different areas of private.
twozerooz
You'd have to make sure you also factor in expectations. Women who believe in the gender gap expect less, and those who expect less get less
OperatorError
http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html - millenial women are outearning millenial men.
TheImperiumOfMan02
Remember that new employees are liabilities. They need to be trained and work a couple years on the job before they become truly productive.
Tippster
So are women inherently a greater liability?
TheImperiumOfMan02
If they are less likely as a whole to stay in the labor force, yes. People are not cogs in a machine, despite best efforts of universities.
Hullaballoonatic
That is a poignant consideration for actual sexism. However, I believe the purpose of this graphic is to distinguish disparity that isn't.
Mimsey
If you read the other replies to this comment, the "sexism" is against men, as new graduate women outearn men with the same credentials.
thisisprocrastination
There's no need for quotation marks.
Boom9001
It's worth nothing you state the infant care thing. It's often hard for men to be given days off to take care of kids as opposed to mothers.
Hoagiefest
But men often times receive pay raises for being new fathers, while new mothers don't
shitduke
because the woman is now working less
Littlewinglet
Feel free to correct me, but I thought the issue with the wage gap was within the same job fields. Like guy dr makes more than female Dr.
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SoMuchPooPooSon
But you see, that's what people make it sound like. And it's simply not true. Those 'stats' are actually skewed from the infographic above
Welcome2Nightvale
I've genuinely seen this happen in several situations and several different states... It does happen, unfortunately.
Logicknot
It's not. It is quoting overall data. And comparing people who work in different field.
wizardglickwi
You would assume that, but no that is not the case. The "wage gap" does not compare like-to-like at all.
blainetog
That *is* a problem, but it isn't anywhere near as dramatic as a 23% gap. It's more like a 5%. Still a problem, but a smaller on.
MATTTTTDAMONNN
This also has to do with how many patients a dr. takes per hour, a female dr. might see 3 patients while a male might see 4 patients per hr
MATTTTTDAMONNN
less patients = less money
mibango
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html
BlibberingHumdinger
Overall, not so much any more. But guy DJ's DO get put on boards more, mostly cozens the women need to squeeze out the babies...
SmellingThePsychosphere
It isn't. But even in your example, there are a wide range of levels of 'doctors'. Small town GP vs. city oncologist? etc.
BreadyStinellis
It absolutely is.
aoenofhorus
Despite, you know, facts and statistics.
LittleEm
That IS true, though the gap differs in degree depending on the field. While all the things this points out are true as well, there ARE 1/
LittleEm
fields and careers where women are paid less than men in the SAME position with very similar qualifications. And if you signed a contract 2/
LittleEm
promising not to discuss your salary/perks package with anyone else, chances are you're probably in one of those fields. Oh, and also, such
LittleEm
contracts are illegal. You're free to discuss your employment perks with anyone. Please do. It's the only way to ferret out inequalities.
MrSpanksworth
That's what the misconception is after the study was published and people misinterpreted it and ignored the facts.
johnvictor
Am I correct in that the study compared all female held jobs to male ones and the disparity came from lack of STEM female workers?
miggy372
Yes you are exactly correct. They took median female salary vs median make salary
callmethelizardqueen
No the figure always used is calculated by ave. taxable income for men vs. ave. taxable for women divided by # of each.
grayjedi
What's really going to bake your noodle is when you consider: Do women choose low paying jobs, or do they pay low because women choose them?
PeculiarBaguette
And this, my friend, is exactly the true heart of the problem. Thanks for pointing it out.
mibango
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html
JenniferMcPherson
There was a class action in nz over pay for nurses. Argument was that if it was male dominated the base rate would be higher. They won.
MorgothsORing
They do pay male nurses more. I had always been told that this was to encourage more males to be nurses though.
mishmashmish
Maybe the focus should be on why there's such a division between the fields men and women go into
Sprixxen
Two camps really with the extreme on one end being the sociocultural approach going to evolutionary psychology approach. Both have problems.
Sprixxen
But it's an old debate. Nature vs. nurture. Do men and women get socialized differently or are there biological mechanisms?
MyNameIsImmaterial
Now, that's the real question! I've heard that discrimination, real and perceived is a major factor.
JLimages
Mentality would be a factor not all people can handle being an engineer. While some don't have the mentality to be a teacher.
mibango
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html
iwouldshootobytwice
Percentages are backwards on psychology
IAmGermanPleaseInsertBeer
Total work hours per week are mixed up. It's 47.3 for men and 47.7 for women, giving a wrong impression there
pigeonkitty
I'm confused about that last statement. They say progressively more women believe they can "have it all" but the percentages are lower.
SpeakingAsTheDevilsAdvocate
No-one can "have it all". Not really.
IgniaEternale
That section is describing desire, not actual roles. Boomers are the oldest generation, millenials youngest. Shows change of attitude/time.
IgniaEternale
Basically - we're slowly removing the root of the wage gap over time, generation by generation.
Zerwin
The data is shown a bit crude, the "Boomers" on the right side are the older ppl. The "Millenials" at the left are the younger ppl
Zerwin
So actually the percentage go up in the younger gen., while it may seem like it would go down
elandriel
I'm hoping people don't think they can have it all, because no one can. And a generation of entitled jerks isn't going to solve any problems
InvadingYourSpaces
I have it all.
Nemothenubbed
The boomers showed us that
Magiccup
Yes, also the data points above show that you can't "have it all", one of the parents has to sacrifice and historically it's been the mother
TheImperiumOfMan02
"sacrifice"
YourMemeSucksHarderThanaDyson
The problem is why are we seeing this as a bad thing? Have you seen kids these days? I think they could use just a little more parenting.
Cptdex
Basically, parenting is a team effort.
sumowoman
In Sweden the baby leave is shared 50/50 between the man and the woman. The mother's employer isn't the only one who has to pay -> equality.
TheBoozehoundBitch
But why do people tend to think the mother has to be the one to make this sacrifice?
earlywormy
Because the child prefers the mother most times, the father is supposed to sacrifice family time for a better supported family.
Hypercube9
The mother should sacrifice because men earn more, and men earn more because the women usually make sacrifices. Wait a minute...
YourMemeSucksHarderThanaDyson
I'm not saying that but why is it the norm that both parents have to work?
TheRobotWhoCriedHuman
I agree. Scientists should aim to make it possible for men to be impregnated and give them the ability to breast feed, true "equality".
TheBoozehoundBitch
There's no need for the sarcasm, a lot of men I've spoken to would love to be able to have that kind of connection with their child.
LadyWidebottom
Because the mother is usually the one who wants to, and the father is usually the one with the higher paying career.
Remne
Yes, but perhaps it's a social conditioning that leads more women to want to stay at home, and encourages men to be the breadwinners.
LadyWidebottom
I know several families where the mother is the higher earner though, so the father has returned to work part time or quit work entirely.
irishandenglishlondonman
Ahhh - I thought there was a problem with society conditioning girls to fit their designated roles. Good to see it's their own stupid fault
vitacocos
But like, use actual data as your sources not a bunch of newspaper articles
theeconomistnonotthatone
As an economist, there is a statistically significant gap b/t the pay for men and women even accounting for the factors covered here. It 1/
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theeconomistnonotthatone
First of all, that's a summary not a report. Second, they're concluding paragraphs are hardly conclusive about the lack of a gender pay 1/
theeconomistnonotthatone
gap. I want to see models and goodness-of-fit analysis before I'll abandon the conclusion of other studies that have found the gap and 2/
theeconomistnonotthatone
presented those measures. Also, the signatory to that letter was a political appointee of George Bush, not an economist. I don't think 3/
theeconomistnonotthatone
that it's unfair to suggest that some difference in wages may be attributable to a preference for non-wage earnings (i.e. "good benefits")4/
theeconomistnonotthatone
is significantly smaller than the widely purported and misleading $0.70-0.80 on the dollar. However, the fact that it exists and has been 2/
theeconomistnonotthatone
in multiple datasets and countries is indicative that it is not complete bunk that women are on average paid less based on their gender. 3/
bobbi21
Sorry. No room for facts here.
FuckYourMorality
Once you account for many different factors like the fact that they work less hours, take longer vacations, take more time off for kids, 1/
theeconomistnonotthatone
Working fewer paid hours and taking time off for kids are probably the strongest argument women have about structure of the labor market 1/
theeconomistnonotthatone
and gender norms that disadvantage them, when/if they get married. That is are both getting married and having kids later & in declining 2/
FuckYourMorality
I'm seeing a lot of downvotes, but nobody explaining why they disagree. If you disagree then tell me why, i'm open to changing my views.
FuckYourMorality
are less likely to ask for promotions or raises doesn't it reduce to an almost insignificant amount? I've heard reports that the 2/
Remne
Yes, but WHY are they less likely to ask? More likely to fall behind in their careers due to motherhood?
FuckYourMorality
earning gap is starting to dip the other way once all this is accounted for due to more women completing schooling and going to 3/
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theeconomistnonotthatone
Can you link me those reports, because every study I've seen of OECD countries says otherwise?
ChaoticMarin
Sure, I guess. If you control for every excuse a company could make for paying someone less the gap is obviously going to disappear.
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ChaoticMarin
I'm just saying, controls are supposed to isolate the cause of the problem, not make the problem disappear. The methodology is flawed.
theeconomistnonotthatone
B/c stability matters too, if you on average save 3-5% on labor costs but have to unexpectedly do without a key employee for several 1/
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theeconomistnonotthatone
months, that could wipe out all your savings. Also, managers and companies try to be rational, but aren't always, which means that they 2/
SeanTheAlex
They say for every dollar that a man makes, a woman makes 70¢. That's not right, that's not fair! The man's only left with 30¢.
PunchingDirtbag
It bothers me that the stats that cover counseling and psychology are wrong...
MathiasTolerain
I love how the entire discipline of social psychology becomes bunk when one reduces something to "personal choice." Makes bigotry easier.
OperatorError
You're implying that my choice to enter construction and be paid well is somehow misogynistic bigotry? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. No.
OperatorError
I went into construction because I like being outside, even in -40c, working at heights, lifting heavy things, AND getting paid well.
OperatorError
And I've had women as supervisors, so clearly some women like it too... but not every woman wants to live in a work camp away from home.
OperatorError
Which is a requirement for MANY of the high-paying construction jobs.
theeconomistnonotthatone
This labor and gender economics more than social psychology.
lphotogurl
I teach high school and have noticed a lot of girls aiming to get STEM jobs. There has been a push for it and ladies are answering the call
TrigenderSwissArmyKnife
Nowadays i find that a girl and a boy can get top place in a STEM competition in school but the girl gets applauded and boy gets 1/2
TrigenderSwissArmyKnife
acknowledged
JLimages
But do they have the mentality to actually succeed in STEM? If a person doesn't have that mentality they will fail male or female.
UnrustleYerJimmies
Found the misogynist!
woodjoiner
Alternatively, this is some one who has seen people pushed into STEM that were not a good fit and failed after much pain and suffering
MoreCowBellBaby
At my high school, in each class, there are 2 to about 60 guys, so, thats a percent I don't care to math. I'm a engineeringstudentidoenough
dogsi
Actually, they aren't. The share of women in STEM has been declining steadily since the big push to get more women into it.
Kitastrophe
Unfortunately, many of those girls will leave grad school for reasons having to do with non academic factors. Almost there.
daevr
I'm an engineer; I tutor my sisters kids and I plan on turning my nieces into engineers too, I Just haven't told my sister yet
BeeDragon
I was the only girl in my class who passed the 8th grade science portion of the MEAP.
imavoter
30% of undergrads accepted to UofT engineering are now female. A huge increase from previous years!
Textuality
It's about time. When I was in college I was literally the ONLY girl in one of my programming classes, and one of three in another one.
MuresanDani
And most of them will drop out.
InspectorGoole
I'm doing a microbiology course, it's mostly women on my course, however my friend is one of 2 women on her physics degree course :/
comette
As one who just got back from a women in tech conference...it's awesome to see a small change working for the future
mibango
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html
Sairvous
Meanwhile white Caucasian males like me trying to get started in the field are now pushed aside for women.
lphotogurl
And I really do feel sorry for you (no sarcasm). You are reaping the fallout for being a descendant of the power brokers of the last 500...
lphotogurl
...years or so. Guilt by association, a victim of history. You haven't lost all your power and infuence but use it wisely.
Logicknot
Good. Diversity breeds creativity and new ideas.
imnotsorry123
Care to cite a study showing that?
javierjabanero1
I'm ecstatic that almost half of my computer science class is filled with girls my age who actually want to be there.
BoredIowaBoys
Where are you going to school? At Iowa State its about 10% women in my com s classes.
javierjabanero1
Northern Virginia Community College. I suppose there are more CS jobs in the DC Metro than Iowa lol.
NotACreeper4345
Lucky, ratio is 20-5 usually and Im ecstatic about that! I try to act like a guy all the time so they feel comfy around me. Its who I am now
iwouldshootobytwice
As a woman getting a phd in the sciences, our numbers are equal in grad school but most women I know don't want to pursue tenure-track
DavidBrooker
To be fair, grad students generally don't pursue tenure. The gender ratio is getting better among profs:
iwouldshootobytwice
That's where we lose women. It's too big of a sacrifice for many women who want families
lphotogurl
Hopefully the field will adapt to the needs and desires of a changing work force.
AxelBeingCivil
While it'd be nice if it did, I'm not sure how it could, sadly. You can't really compensate for lost time, y'know?
CapableTrash
What does tenure-track mean/entail?
OmniscientSquid
Generally a professorship that comes with stipulations that protect the individual from being fired/dismissed barring extreme circumstances.
OmniscientSquid
They're great positions to be in (aiming that way in physics) but it's very difficult/time consuming/risky to get there for most.
OmniscientSquid
You're likely to spend a lot of time (grad school/post-docs/research assoc.) being paid very little as you work your way up to it...
DavidBrooker
Tenure-track careers are notoriously competitive and stressful for the first decade. At top universities, departments can hire 4-5 1/2
DavidBrooker
Assistant Professors and after the tenure evaluation is complete (a 3-5 year process), only one will receive an Associate Professorship. 2/2
MrDonaldTrump
3-5 years of trial for a maybe position? wow thats insane
BiteTheHandsThatThieve
Kinda wish theyd stop making toys specifically targeting one gender or another. I bet that might change things.
lphotogurl
So glad they make legos for girls. I can't tell you how jealous I was of my brother's legos. I have received them as gifts in recent years.
chezbalz
Explain how? Am curious
KellKabrinski
How they market does tend to affect demand though. Positive feedback loop: kids want what kids like them have on TV.
KellKabrinski
My cousin is a chemical engineer working as a safety engineer. Her daughters like hardhats and science. Same idea, they want to be like mom.
Cuntard
nah. supply results from demand, not the other way around.
eternalposer
You know marketing is a thing right? Demands are created all the time.
Cuntard
they can affect perception of supply, thereby influencing demand
eternalposer
I would think manipulating the perception of supply would come after creating a demand through marketing (eg the diamond industry).
idonthaveanaccountt
that depends on which economist you ask
maplepancakes
I've talked at length about this before, but here's a quick summary: 'pink collar' jobs are former white-collar jobs that were devalued 1/2
maplepancakes
once the field became flooded with women. See: secretary, teacher, biology-related sciences, nursing. And soon, add computer sciences 2/2
Mimsey
Which I've yet to see an explanation for. Why WOULDN'T a job devalue when flooded with people that drop out 25% of the time to have kids?
ihadtochangemyusernamebecauseIdrawpornasaliving
People are arguing that men should have that same right, yet at the same time, are saying women don't get fair pay because of it.
Mimsey
Men would get paid less or women would get paid more. Either way, win win.
ihadtochangemyusernamebecauseIdrawpornasaliving
Better question - if fathers were allowed to drop out to raise kids, would it still devalue those jobs? Because no matter what gender, -
ihadtochangemyusernamebecauseIdrawpornasaliving
it's going to happen.
motherfuckinmoonmoon
People are so quick to forget that raising children/cooking etc. IS work. It's just unpaid work--sort of economic black market.
FuckYourMorality
Don't have kids then, nobody is forcing you. At the risk of starvation, you kind of are being forced to work.
ihadtochangemyusernamebecauseIdrawpornasaliving
That wasn't the point.
TheImperiumOfMan02
Right, because dollars are more important than a fulfilling life. Feminism was the greatest trick the bankers ever pulled.
Nasigoring
The infographic included unpaid work aka household chores didnt it?
TheCambridgeKnitter
And instead of blaming women for doing it, we should push men to take a bigger share in the household tasks.
Mimsey
The infographic points out men work more in general. And you want to make them doing even more yet?
helloearthling
'Let men' might be a better term, since so much of society pressures men to go out of the house and work.
TheCambridgeKnitter
you're right. :) not wise choice of words.
hertta
Or how about we let the family decide for themselves what they want to do?
foksan
Are we going go ignore the fact that women earn 5% less just because they are women?
bobbi21
show the same thing (although to a lesser degree). Art of debating isn't proving your position right, just proving others wrong. 2
miggy372
It dropped down to 5% when only taking major into consideration. The rest of the infographic attempted to explain the 5%.
carrington
Naw. OP and imgur have no interest in addressing reality when they could cherrypick to bolster their senses of entitlement.
bobbi21
yup. Because there was 1 inaccurate study which is quoted, we will instead debunk that study and ignore all the accurate studies which 1
leafspring
Short version: https://youtu.be/wjWBXbGVyQU
ceruleetheblue
I knew someone was gonna mention Shoe.
TaintJuice
The question we should be asking is, why do we pay educators shit? Most get a 3 month vacation, but most of that time off is spent prepping
GalacticPresidentZaphodBeeblebrox
They trade financial incentive for job security, not saying I agree just saying how it is
familytriptopoundtown
They have fairly good benefits but I agree they need a pay bump. But maybe make it harder to get tenure.
SeeMyVests
i this is the first comment i've wished i could upvote more than once...congrats!
FourByFourAnimalStyle
The highest paid educators will be the one that teach the curriculum of the highest paid jobs. AP Calc and AP physics> English or Basic math
seventhson74
As an educational worker I say 'bullshit' on the summers being spent prepping for school. Teachers become teachers for the summers off.
ratgirl23
I literally have never met a teacher who's in it for that reason. That is an awful lot of work for a few weeks off in June and July.
Bb4816
I 100% agree with you.
CavalierNique
Why do we pay nurses (Aged care and hospital care) shit, they are the ones doing the healing.
DSPKevlar
IDK what you are talking about, all of the nurses that I know (ex GF etc.) get paid more than me, and I'm in STEM (EECE) this doesn't (1/?)
DSPKevlar
account for location of job (Her: big city, me: Small town) and schools (Her: IVY League Me: State), but her hours are inconsistent (2/2)
imgurzealot
I wish I could upvote this more.
beyourownlight
It's not a vacation. They aren't paid for those three months.
yourcalllightisalreadyinyourhand
boyfriend and sister both get paid over the summer. she still gets regular checks, but he gets a lump sum at the beginning.
beyourownlight
My mother has been a teacher for 30 years. They don't get paid for summer. They can choose to have their pay spread out. Not the same.
MorgothsORing
My sister is a teacher and she gets paid for those three months. She also gets paid extra for doing summer school and what not.
Angylique1
I'm pretty sure you have no idea what your sister really does
MorgothsORing
Ive got a pretty good handle on it. We talk daily and we review each others work (lessons, papers, etc.). I also help her with her finances
Angylique1
Not sure what magical teaching land she works in. You make it sound like she's raking in the dough and hitting the beach for 3 months.
BreadyStinellis
She gets a check for summer months, she's getting paid less durring the year. They offer that option.
MorgothsORing
Maybe so. She also is paid additional money for working in the summer too.
AawesomeAardvaark
Of course
Shring1641
My girlfriend is a teacher, and yes, she does get paid for those 3 months of vacation. It's in your contract when you're hired
TaintJuice
My wife is a teacher. you can have your pay either spread out over 12 months or 9 months if you like. Still the same pay.
rectalprolapse
It varies. Some teachers are on 11-month contracts, while others are 10-month, and others are year-round. If you're less than a full year,
rectalprolapse
you can usually choose to have your pay spread out for the full year.
BreadyStinellis
Nope. She just chose to get her pay spread out, probably easier for her to budget that way.
TaintJuice
Yes that is what we did, rather than get higher pay for the 9 out of 12 mos, we decided it would be easier to budget spaced over 12 mos
BreadyStinellis
Right, but she's not technically paid for them. She's paid for 9 months of work.
imbatman58
I'm a teacher. We "get paid" for summers as in we receive paychecks either for the whole summer or at regular intervals. But...(1/2)
imbatman58
(2/2) teachers who work 12 months (correctional facilities etc) get paid 25% more than those who only work 9 months. It's semantics.
heerobya
I don't agree with that statement, the 3 months off is balanced out by working far more than 40 hours per week for the 9 months in school.
JaxAndHisLampPost
My wife makes 30k less per year than I do as a teacher(I'm an engineer). However, we'd make about the same if I took unpaid vacation.
greaterbob
I know this likely won't be seen, but I have a 2nd job as an evening professor (college). All of the book publishers have 1.
greaterbob
Pre made power points, answers to all problems in the book, and test questions. Syllabi are reused semester to semester. 2
greaterbob
I will concede that the curriculum is less strictly observed by the government at the college level though 3
greaterbob
That being said high prep time or not we need to support our educators. 4
AawesomeAardvaark
But as an adjunct prof i only make 1500 per 15 week class. It's still shit pay
mibango
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html
johnvictor
That makes me want to see more of the underlying details as mentioned in a lot of comments to that article.
SmellingThePsychosphere
Well, we don't want ppl educating our children who are only in it for the money... especially with unions that don't let bad ones get fired.
Cuntard
what all the other said and, like it or not, teaching elementary kids is unskilled labor.
ratgirl23
That is beyond ignorant and offensive.
Bb4816
How well do you know developmental psychology and how to improve early literacy skills? What about the foundational math skills?
Cuntard
I know developmental psychology quite well considering I have a degree in it...
TaintJuice
This is bullshit.
Alpacalypsenow
I would love to see you try making lesson plans that meet state standards, getting your lowest achieving students to pass standardized (1)
BreadyStinellis
Aww, he thinks they're just baby sitters. That's cute.
Cuntard
nah. I trust my babysitter to be with my kids overnight.
Alpacalypsenow
Tests, creating (and passing) student growth objectives, getting more than 25 hours of professional development every year, keeping a (2)
Cuntard
lol @ 25 hrs of CE a year. even your continuing education is only 3/4 of a work week...
Alpacalypsenow
I have to do CE on my own time. Unpaid.
Cuntard
as do most people. just do it during the 3 paid months off you get each year
Alpacalypsenow
Special needs, differentiating instruction for low- and high-achieving students, being evaluated/observed by administration, writing (4)
Alpacalypsenow
Group of 26 kids under control and making sure they are engaged and learning, dealing with parents, writing IEPs for students with (3)
Alpacalypsenow
Learning how to excel in an "unskilled" profession. (6)
Alpacalypsenow
Curriculum, and being a role model for young kids. Tell me again how easy my job is and how I wasted 5 years in college and grad school (5)
Cuntard
I didn't say you wasted your time or that your job is easy. very telling that you thought that. it's called projection.
Alpacalypsenow
By implying it's an unskilled profession, you're saying it shouldn't require a college degree or special training.
Cuntard
I implied nothing. I just stated a fact that teaching elementary education is considered unskilled labor. it's a real classification of jobs
frosty147
I'm all for well-payed teachers, but I don't believe your statement at all. Most curriculum is strictly dictated these days.
Bb4816
Day to day lesson plans usually aren't and no lesson plan will work for every class. Even with a strict curriculum, there's a ton of prep
TaintJuice
Exactly. Someone has to administer them. They don't hand you a book of lesson plans and content then say "here, read this".
frosty147
I have teachers in the family. Teachers unions need to nullify summer vacation to justify ever higher wages. This is a common tactic.
Bb4816
I have been a teacher and know plenty. Just because the ones you know don't bother to prepare doesn't mean it's uncommon for teachers to.
frosty147
How many hours of summer vacation did you spend preparing? When was this? What grade did you teach?
bitsybovay
Tenure is what keeps passionate and qualified new teachers from getting their careers started
bitsybovay
Come home until 4 pm when he does grading at home. He also does prep and grading on weekends, probably 5 to 6 more hours there!
bitsybovay
Substitute taught for 2 years and is now working on a one year contract. He has his master's and goes to work at 6 am every day and doesn't
bitsybovay
My husband is trying to get a full time job as a high school history teacher in New York. He has substut
bitsybovay
For them to retire to get a position. I don't think The pay is the problem (due to the awesome time off and pensions and insurance) but the
bitsybovay
The problem with teaching is that he is very passionate and devoted yet there are tenured teacher who don't care anymore yet he has to wait
frosty147
What on earth were you "preparing" for all that time? 3/3
frosty147
You don't acknowledge that summer vacation is a big perk? For that to be true you'd need to put in 40 hours per week the whole time. /2
MorganMcJiggleson
All of that time off is also spent being unemployed...
SocietyOfSensation
Most of that time is not spend prepping. That really is bullshit. I really dislike that excuse.
frosty147
The NEA is to thank for most bullshit narratives in this regard.
TaintJuice
Not an excuse, wife is a 6th grade ELA teacher, she is typically at 40 hours by Thursday of each week. Works the weekends catching (1/...)
TaintJuice
up, summers are spent working on lesson planning, getting cheap supplies for her class, looking for cheap books, creating new (2/...)
TaintJuice
projects/games for kids as learning activities, re-organizing her classroom. She also sometime has training to catch up on/further (3/...)
TaintJuice
extends her education. She spends a lot of time reading childrens books to make sure they are right for students her class (mostly (4/...)
Wimpymind
We dont. They are paid quite a lot. Just not compared to petroleum engineers. Compare it to most of the job market and its fine.
Wimpymind
This is just feminist logic all over again. Stare yourself blind on the CEOs, and ignore the 98% workplace deaths and shit jobs men do.
d0o0o0d
Check out the benefit package before you decide the annual take-home is crap. A lot of educators get pensions and summers off.
BreadyStinellis
That is rapidly changing though.
imgurzealot
My wife is a teacher, spends 6 days a week over the summer prepping. And she works every night at home AFTER work marking and prepping
heinleinfan
And a lot of educators work 12 hours a day, 5 days a week, when they're not on that "summer off".
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TaintJuice
I don't think the argument is about the hours than the pay that reflects those hours.
PurplePixieUK
Educators I know work more than 5 days per week. Long days teaching, days off marking and prepping. Their hair is falling out by xmas/summer
adobesubmarine
"Summers off" sounds good, but really it just means you're functionally unemployed.
howboutyadontladiesandgentlemenSCOTTYDONT
We actually have a problem in my area, with bored teachers taking summer camp counselor positions from students who need the jobs.
TaintJuice
They're not bored. Trying to make additional money for someone who only makes 32k a year.
howboutyadontladiesandgentlemenSCOTTYDONT
I'm from Toronto. Majority make over 60k a year, can't be fired and have full benefits. They aren't hurting.
TaintJuice
Agreed. Its not like you're going to get a great job for 3 months a year. Most summer camps and day cares take advantage of this.
iostream64
It isn't bad if you have children that are also in the school system. My mother stayed working for the school sys so she'd be with us (1/2)
iostream64
(2/2)during the holidays
TaintJuice
No not bad, but it would have been more difficult if your mother had to get a masters degree and pay her student loans with pennies.
TaintJuice
My wife is a 6th grade ELA teacher. I have seen the take home. It is crap compared to the endless hours she puts in. She's typically (1/2)
callmethelizardqueen
All of which is tax deductible. And most teachers just reuse their plans and decor year after year.
ratgirl23
Only a small portion of what teachers typically spend is tax deductible. Do you have numbers to back up your "most" claim?
TaintJuice
Even so that money is coming out of our bank account today. We have to wait months to obtain those dollars. It's a real shame it is that way
TaintJuice
in her room at 7:00 am, comes home at 5:30 pm. Continues to grade papers after work, then works weekends to "catch up". Most of her (2/3)
TaintJuice
actual vacation days are spent lesson planning and making projects that we use our money for. Setting up the room, going to flea (3/4)
TaintJuice
markets and garage sales for cheap books for her classroom. (4/4)
chickNlittle
As a woman in with a degree in early childhood education, that's a high end income. Most start out under 30,000 with a masters
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frodotheha
As someone whose eyes bleed regularly, your spelling has triggered another good bleed.
DumpITtoKrumpit
My father started out with a masters in severely profound education in the state of Fl at 27k a year.
chickNlittle
Clarifying-I made 38k gross last year. I spent a LARGE portion of my own pay for supplies. I work 55 hours a week, 50 weeks per year.
LasagnaAndMeatballs
Just started Pre Clinicals for Ed BA. Misleading information is for administrators and politicians. I don't think you should be a teacher.
chickNlittle
I work in a private,not public (where I would make less). I have a BA in ECE. I've been in the field 7 years and I am incredible at my job.
Its12am
(1/2)The thing that pisses me off about that is I work in a call center making maybe $12k a year, and there's an assembly job right
Its12am
next door that I could be making $35k-$40k plus at, but it hasn't opened yet. Th dumbest part is it only requires a GED. good luck btw!!!!!
InhaleMyBumHole
Bless you and all the other teachers. It's a failing battle, so thanks for taking one for the team with current schooling situations. :c
chickNlittle
Thank you! I am passionate about my job! :)
lphotogurl
And thank you for recognizing it and being supportive!
mike221
Its awesone to such a sweet and heartfelt sentiment from inhalemybutthole
mike221
Bumhole sorry
AnAppallingActOfSloth
You just apologised to a bumhole. No matter how far you get in life, I want you to look back on this moment, when you apologised to a butt.
AnAppallingActOfSloth
Bumhole* my bad.
Alpacalypsenow
It depends on the area. I made $54k starting with a masters, and that's low for my area. A friend in another district makes $62k starting.
LasagnaAndMeatballs
FALSE... $30,000-32,000 is the bottom of the range for Elementary Ed. With a masters, it is more like $38,000.
yesthisisturbo
That sux
Arnoski
That has markedly less to do with being a woman and a great deal more to do with teaching wages being pretty well terrible.
Arnoski
In the States, anyway. I've been told Canadian teachers get better pay.
TimeFoDat
What area though? Without the context of State/County at least, it's hard to say if that's bad or not. E.g. big diff between CA & MO.
Alpacalypsenow
Exactly. In NJ I make just under twice that salary my first year (w/ a masters)
TimeFoDat
In Ca I made 36k/year in a data/surveying job w/no experience and an unrelated undergrad degree. Still lived like shit b/c of Sallie Mae.
SocietyOfSensation
Someone really needs to explain difference in cost of living etc between the US and EU because 30k for a starter seems very reasonable to me
Yourippaadeespantsyoumendadeespants
I hate that. in every other industry, it's obvious that the best way to get and keep good people is to pay them more. Not U.S. Education.
lifeisapicnic
You're amazing. I taught ECE for a year and had to split, it was too hardcore. Toughest job on earth
IcouldofbeenaGodbutwastoolazy
I can't stand people that start statements "As a...(women)(liberal)(hairy ape child)" you just know the rest of the sentence will be shit.
idonthaveanaccountt
Seriously! There's no way to verify it either, so why does it mater?
Ahnengeist
Thanks. Solutions: Don't go to college and study bullshit. If you pursue your passion, that's fine. Don't whine to us about your shit pay.
LZYRMN
So do the men though. Education jobs just don't pay well overall and that's an issue on its own.
elandriel
That's the point of the post- women and men make the same amt. for the same job
soggylunch
Teaching in Korea right now. My peers are getting 24 mil won a year. That's less than $24k. Korea is the 7th largest economy AND...
soggylunch
They supposedly have a high regard for education.
BlankhasdiedofDysentery
The good teachers there make a ton tutoring though.
soggylunch
Yeah I think you are right. I'm working for an after school academy now. Tutoring is the secret.
therealretto
My wife has her degree in ece. She makes 14 an hour and the work is super hard.
glassweaver
In Most states she could take her degree and make more money as a substitute teacher in the K-12 system.
Druggedpunk
As a man in the petroleum industry I make $36,000 and I'm just started working towards my associates.
OverDroid
Depends what you do, but to make decent money you're going to need a degree.
Druggedpunk
The position that I'm looking forward starts up at $35hr witb an associates.
keyonne
Yeah it's kinda dumb. Go to school for six years and they expect to pay you in pennies.
glassweaver
As someone with three teachers in my family, only an idiot starts with their masters. Most districts will pay you to get it over time.
keyonne
Ohio state university had a period of time where they wouldn't sign the paperwork for a license with the b.s. program.
glassweaver
Any idea why? If state requirements don't mandate an MS, why force students to start with one? ...Makes them a poor choice for a university.
keyonne
Yeah they said it was because they wanted to be "progressive" but they quickly dropped it when ent ollment went down. I was stuck th ough.
ominousdusk
in NY you have to get your masters within a certain time of getting your bachelors or you have to get re-certified
glassweaver
....and CEUs don't equal an MS. CEUs usually aren't from college courses. http://www.teachercertificationdegrees.com/certification/new-york/
ominousdusk
this is for INITIAL certification which is invalid after 5 years if you dont get PROFESSIONAL certification, for which you need your Masters
glassweaver
Actually, you're wrong. You have to take a number of CEUs within 5 years in order to renew your license. Every state is like that though....
ominousdusk
yes, tests and your masters... you need your masters degree within 5 years
yesthisisturbo
What crazed country pays teachers so poorly?!
glassweaver
( first-year you do work harder because you have to tailor the curriculum the way you want, but every year after is super easy)
BlankhasdiedofDysentery
Most of them...
CuriouslyRecurringTemplatePattern
Most of the world has dubious priorities
PantsBegone
...the one that ends up with Trump as a nomination. // ***begin idiocracy prophecy***
cyno01
Most places that arent scandanavia? This isnt one of those (albeit frequent) "lol the US is so stupid" things...
imnotsorry123
Swedish teachers have really shitty pay. Dont know about Norway and Denmark but only one i know has good wages is Finland.
aeonicentity
Finland also requires it's teachers to be PhD equivalents...
CouldHaveBeenHitler
...and the teaching programs are as prestigious as law and medicine, which is pretty damn impressive.
glassweaver
In case people are down voting because they don't think I'm serious - those are the words of my family members who ARE teachers.
chickNlittle
ECE doesn't always run with the school calendar. I work 55 hours a week, 50 weeks a year.
glassweaver
....who complains about the same things. I can understand and side with you on ECE. The K12 teachers though, not so much.
chickNlittle
I have a friend who teaches K. She works 8-3, with lesson planning period, 3 weeks paid time off, not including summers/breaks.
glassweaver
TBH, I didn't know that ECE was a certified, degree holding position before this post. My position is aimed at the K-12 group....
chickNlittle
The requirements depend on the state, but to teach 2-5 year olds in my area, you have to have a BA or higher. Starting wage ~30k/year.
LadyWidebottom
Most of them, I'd say. Even in Australia the starting pay for a qualified teacher is pretty crap.
yesthisisturbo
Wrong. In Australia it's 60k+ which equals one of the best graduate remunerations.
LadyWidebottom
I am in Australia and the last time I checked, it was under $50k for a first year teacher.
yesthisisturbo
I am Australian teacher. Check again.
ZOETHENiNJA
Yep and if it's a Masters/5 yr course then starting price is $63k-$66k depending on where you graduate from
LadyWidebottom
That's assuming it's a Masters, how about just a BA, though? I have looked into it previously and the salary levels were significantly less.
LadyWidebottom
Granted, some time has passed since then so I assume the pay has increased a little, but not to 60k + just for BA from what I could find.
MorgothsORing
Is that good money in Australia? I know everything is much more expensive there.
LadyWidebottom
It is quite good, but there are some government jobs that pay similar or more without university qualifications.
LadyWidebottom
And as we've pointed out, it varies from state to state and depending on qualifications.
glassweaver
USA here, three teachers in my suburban family. Starting pay is around 35k w/no COLA. Pretty good for only working 2/3rds of the year!
ratgirl23
Where do you live to have school in session only 2/3 of the year?
glassweaver
I've lived in Alaska, Oregon, Washington, Illinois, and Wisconsin (USA). 3 months off for summer, 2 weeks winter, 2 weeks spring.
AawesomeAardvaark
I her paid for 191 work days as a teacher for under 40k. Usually 9 hour days. I don't complain about the pay but it's not great
ratgirl23
I've noticed that many people have a warped view of school calendars. I teach until June 8 and go back July 25.
JenniferMcPherson
You also only get paid for 2/3rds if the year and if you want a year-round paycheck you have to decrease your pay while you're teaching
glassweaver
How does that have any relevance to the fact that starting salary is 35k? If you suck at managing your money & have a tough summer, oh well.
jms10
Also you tend to find that that other 1/3 is filled with all sorts of crap like marking, lesson planing, writing schemes of work etc.
glassweaver
"USA here, three teachers n my suburban family." If you're good at your job & know how to reuse your lesson plans, no, no it's not.
adobesubmarine
The important question that goes unaddressed always is why do women choose those fields (and is it due to sexism)?
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adobesubmarine
Actually, no. The Hodges psych research group at U. Oregon studies this, and they would be appalled at that suggestion.
zarkingphoton
Just biological differences. Sweden has spent millions pushing women to be engineers and men to be nurses, but it's basically all for naught
adobesubmarine
No. I am aware of absolutely no credible research to support that idea.
zarkingphoton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gender_War This is a documentary that you can find on youtube. I think you should watch it.
TheSaucyCrumpet
The obvious answer if if employers could pay women less for the same work as men, why would anyone ever hire men?
NopeAvium
Fun fact: women get more hired than man and still earn the same.
itwasmyainsel
simple answer to that- because they think men are better than women at the job.
hblb229
Identifying causes of the wage gap doesn't mean there isn't one. It means we know what we need to address to make it better.
shitduke
why? if some people dont want to go for high paying jobs then that is their biz
helloearthling
Right, but it's picking up the torch from when there was a literal wage gap in the same position depending on gender. You have to separate..
helloearthling
issues from each other. The issue now is about choice - do women have the choice of roles? Do men? I'd argue that a significant amount is..
helloearthling
due to how lots of people still frown on househusbands.
FrostedCheetos
But what we're trying to say is that there isn't one for the reasons people think. Maybe that one nickel is due to sexism, but it 1/2
Acornlad
Its hard to identify the causes. Saying "Its sexism" with no real proof is ignorant.
FrostedCheetos
Isn't every where. Not every single woman earns less than a man in their field. It all just comes down to choice and opportunity
hertta
Oh? So do you have a solution?
MorganMcJiggleson
...They just did a study that showed when women take over male dominated fields, the pay drops.
MorganMcJiggleson
In the US doctors are generally paid considerably well, but in a place like Russia where the vast majority of doctors are women...
thisisprocrastination
Or Finland (80% of med students are women), which still pays doctors well, by Finnish standards.
MorganMcJiggleson
-The pay is awful, and the work is actually looked won on. Work done by women simply isn't valued as highly.
SweetZombiJesus
One of the links above is how women do not negotiate as well or as aggressively for salary increases.
WarKittyKat
I'd have to find the links later, but there's also evidence that women are hurt much more by negotiating than men are. (1/2)
WarKittyKat
Basically, what's seen as assertive and positive behavior in a man, is seen as pushy or aggressive negative behavior in a woman. (2/2)
SweetZombiJesus
I would actually agree with that. Women need to negotiate differently than men do, which is unfortunate.
marsgoose
All men would be replaced by women if they did the same job for less pay.Corporations don't care about naughty bits, they care about money.
katarzynawid
Yes, but is it a pretty inforgraphic??? Ugh, imgur and feminism.
TheImperiumOfMan02
It's almost like increasing the qualified labor pool decreases the wages! How groundbreaking!
Koga90
The pay doesn't drop, women are simply less willing to do overtime, it would happen in any field they applied in.
Hullaballoonatic
Early on the graphic admits it cannot account for a 5% disparity between the sexes in pay.
NopeAvium
Difference between an agenda pushed study and actual statistic is crushing.
copperdomebodhi
No doubt. Let's see some reason to believe that's the case here. This effect has been observed repeatedly for years.
seventhson74
Because of maternity leaves, it says so in the documentation above...
emaleetiger
I wish I could upvote this a million times.
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littleredrunningshorts
I thought so too, but according to the study the opposite happens when men take over a field. For example, computer science.
TheOneTrueCheesecake
Fascinating, warrants more research no doubt
LordJosh
Computer science aka the field which was more useful during a massive technology boom, meaning tons of new jobs and men going into the field
svolpi
Why does this comment not have more points? Glad someone posted this!
trentcorwin
Wouldn't you expect the pay to drop for a field when you double the size of the job pool without doubling the demand for that job?
Br0M0use
who did the study, what was the sample size, did they have a control group, what were the other parameters of the study?
MorganMcJiggleson
The article says one of them was done over the course of 50+ years. Read the whole article.
MorganMcJiggleson
Sauce: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html?_r=0
CaptVito
Well does it account for the fact that the labor pool for those occupations has increased therefore driving down wages in any field.
HowDoIPickAUsername
Did you read the article? It says that when men take over a female field pay goes up rather than down
Koga90
That just proves that when women take over the wages drop, it doesn't prove a wage gap in the same positions, the wages drop because
Koga90
much more likely to drop for maternity and are less willing to put the work hours men put out, so their works is seen as less useful.
idkalotaboutnothing
Would be interesting to see the actual data that's based on. I wonder if the pay drops due to number of applicants as opposed to gender.
HowDoIPickAUsername
The article says that pay goes up when men take over a previously female field, so that would suggest it's not number of applicants.
damasa
The study that the source uses is locked behind a paywall that requires that you pay $40 for one day access. I would give up on that data.
asterisk09
What about men in nursing being paid more than women after controlling for degrees, tenure, etc?
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Br0M0use
The male nurse works longer hours, thus get's paid more.
MorgothsORing
That would be the same reason why graduate schools offer women additional fellowships and scholarships. It's to encourage more to enter.
asterisk09
More men than women, I mean.
asterisk09
I'm skeptical of that, because men get paid more even among CRNAs and yet there are more men in that segment of nursing.
MorgothsORing
Ya I'm not sure. That's how it was explained to me when I entered college. They told all the pre med kids to encourage males to try nursing
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Cheiro
Except its the opposite when men take over a female field, like computer science.
thisisprocrastination
When did that happen?
Cheiro
The shift happened in the 80s. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programming-used-to-be-womens-work-718061/?no-ist
thisisprocrastination
Thank you, that and some other articles I googled were interesting. But misleading. Women peaked in CS degrees in 1984, true, but the peak>
thisisprocrastination
>was 37% women, never even close to a majority, never mind enough to label it a female field.
stabaracadabara
Im female, a sous chef, 23 years old and on a 27000 salary and getting my third promotion coming up. Depends on your dedication to your job
DanTuker
You geaux girl !!!!!!!!!! :)
FuckYourMorality
Of which we can show that women are less dedicated on average, they work less hours, take longer vacations and take more time off for kids.
stabaracadabara
I highly agree. Most women are less dedicated. But trust me, I know a lot of guys that do the same thing.
Kobbz
If women were cheaper, every boss there is would hire only women to save money. And that's not how it's like.
actuallyMikeTyson
Kinda faulty way to look at it. I doubt someone's sitting down and deciding to pay women less 1/2
actuallyMikeTyson
2/2 but rather that people casually pay female employees less because their work and ambition is less valued by that person
thisisprocrastination
Also because they work less (fewer hours) when on the job AND take more time off the job.
actuallyMikeTyson
it's really kinda a wholesale thing. You right too.
Chozo
Its not just about choices and majors, women are on average offered less opportunity for advancement.
[deleted]
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DrAnimalWelfareScientist
It's about the higher up positions. Even in psych, mostly women, but get to core scientist, tenure professorship, so on, and it's mostly men
Chozo
And, it goes farther back than just the choice of major. women are systemically encouraged to adopt these "lower pay roles" in society.
SunshinePrincessLuna
Women who are more qualified than men for the same job will often get rejected, if this job is a high position job.
SunshinePrincessLuna
Most of my lecturers are male, not because women don't equally qualify or apply, but because men tend to be hired more easily
Chozo
no, i mean that in stem fields, even with the same degree, women have to work harder to receive the same opportunities to climb the ladder.
Chozo
As a male, anyone who thinks that the playing field is completely fair... has their eyes closed.
MorgothsORing
I work in stem and in general women or favored not only for acceptance for degrees but for promotions after. Just my experience however.
FuckYourMorality
Unless you cite some evidence, everyone is just going to have contrary opinions here.
Chozo
I work for an IT consulting firm (one of the largest in the world) and if you took a walk around our office, you would see a lot of (1/?)
Chozo
men in developer and project management positions. There are plenty of women in the office, a few of them have been promoted past (2/?)
mishmashmish
There's been a stigma around it, but recently there's been a greater push for women in STEM fields, which is awesome
iwouldshootobytwice
Look at the percentages at the undergrad level. Then the grad level. Then faculty level. Still mostly men at the high end. Hope it changes
hertta
Doesn't that make sense though? Since we're talking averages. Men have on avg worked the fields for longer. Would make sense they now have h
hertta
2/2 a similar disparity in the high end positions.
iwouldshootobytwice
But these are fields that require a lot of work and time, particularly at the time in life when women have children. It's a tough balance
FuckYourMorality
I don't really understand the push for women in STEM... I want the best people possible in STEM regardless of gender.
TheImperiumOfMan02
And that's after a severe hiring and promotion bias toward females. It's almost like we can't even bribe them into these positions.
howdoiscience
Ex girlfriend with a B.S. and 2 years of experience in web development got a raise this year that was about 10,000 less than the new hires
howdoiscience
Sorry, I mean she got a raise after working there that gave a salary that ended up being less than what new hires got.
FuckYourMorality
Besides anecdotal evidence not being valid, if true that's illegal and there are laws against it unless the company can justify it.
UnslicedBreadisCoolToo
I like how people upvote clintontg's posts as if they were there or something.
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ChaoticMarin
That's not really how raises work. She would be fighting an uphill battle to prove discrimination is the reason she's being paid less.
lostnortherner
Yes they are. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2013/07/man-named-kim-adds-mr-to-resume-lands-job/
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SunshinePrincessLuna
This is just a recent development because they want more diversity and sometimes even need to hit quotas nowadays so as to not have
SunshinePrincessLuna
Obvious discrimination
SunshinePrincessLuna
There's a myriad of data on these things, empirical studies etc. If you're genuinely interested, then definitely do your own research.
[deleted]
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SunshinePrincessLuna
If you guys are even remotely interested in facts, you can simply use something like Google scholar
SunshinePrincessLuna
It seems like people here are very willing to claim things, and less willing to do any research before they do so
SunshinePrincessLuna
Have you done your own research? I'm following a course in culture and diversity at work, and there is definitely a gap in opportunity.
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SunshinePrincessLuna
I'm going to list some of my required course readings, but I also urge you and the other downvoters to look up things for yourself
SunshinePrincessLuna
"Eagly, A.H., Karau, S.J. (2002) Role congruity theory of prejudice toward female leaders"
twozerooz
It's entirely possible that Role congruity theory makes up the remaining unexplained 5% of the wage gap, but it's pretty small.
SunshinePrincessLuna
"Schmitt, M., Ellemers, N. & Branscombe, N. (2003). Perceiving and responding to gender discrimination in organizations"
twozerooz
Again, starts from the position that the wage gap is fully explained by sexism but presents no evidence to support that assumption.
SunshinePrincessLuna
"Brink, M. (2011). Scouting for talent: appoiNtment practices of women professors in academic medicine"- very interesting read
twozerooz
This is in the Netherlands. I only know where the science is in regards to N.America, but I didnt think sexism was bigger in Europe.
SunshinePrincessLuna
Ellemers, (2015). Women at work: how organizational features impact career development
twozerooz
Ironically, this one just supports other studies which have proven that believing in the wage gap myth results in lower expectations.
SunshinePrincessLuna
"Kanter, R.M. (1976). Impact of hierarchical structures of the work behavior of women and men"
twozerooz
Too old, not relevant anymore.
SunshinePrincessLuna
"Glick, P. & Fiske, S. (2007). Sex discrimination: the psychological approach"
twozerooz
Entirely theoretical in nature, no empirical evidence whatsoever.
SunshinePrincessLuna
Ryan & Haslam (2007). The glass cliff: exploring the dynamics surrounding the appointment of women to precarious leadership positions
twozerooz
Poorly done study uses circular reasoning. Starts from the position that the wage gap is explained by sexism, without any proof.
SunshinePrincessLuna
Ex
SunshinePrincessLuna
Brien, Major, & Gilbert (2012). Gender differences in entitlement: the role of system-justifying beliefs
twozerooz
Without knowing what system-justifying beliefs the author is referring to, it's impossible to make any conclusions from this.
useless3y3s
Cool. Please explain the luxury tax on tampons?
mishmashmish
For real though, it's a hygiene product and periods are far from luxuries. Who decided putting a tax on them was a good idea?
ceruleetheblue
Sales tax.
OperatorError
Please explain the luxury tax on toilet paper?
Raptorsaurus83
Woo Canada! No tax on feminine hygiene products!
previoustopcomment
they were a luxury when first introduced, and in a way still are, there are non-disposable ways of dealing with period blood.
Raptorsaurus83
Even reusable options such as menstrual cups are taxed. It's not an issue of environmental concern.
previoustopcomment
I didn't say it was, what do you think women did before the invention of disposable pad/tampons? They switched because of convenience.
useless3y3s
When first introduced they were to plug bullet holes, and then repurposed when found they could be used by females.
BreadyStinellis
Can i have a bucket full of bloody rags next to my desk at work? That's the alternative you're talking about.
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BreadyStinellis
1. Those are far newer than tampons, 2. Still taxed, 3. Not realistic for everyone, especially if in a stalled bathroom.
goldfishlaser
Invented in the 30s, can be used in stalls by most able bodied women. it does look like they're taxed. I was responding to "nondisposble".
previoustopcomment
Yes, that's exactly what you would do, its the same reason disposable diaper are still taxed; their convenience is a luxury.
BreadyStinellis
Right, but what work place would allow that? My guess is that's against OSHA. HIV and all that.
previoustopcomment
how on earth is it any more hazardous than the tampons/pads already present in the garbage cans in those workplaces anyway?
useless3y3s
What are these ways of dealing with menstrual bleeding you mention?
previoustopcomment
You use reusable cloth, its the same reason disposable diaper are still taxed, their convince is a luxury.
previoustopcomment
what do you think women did before the invention of disposable pads/tampons?
cyno01
Nothing to do with the discussion at hand, but its not a luxury tax, its just normal sales tax. But i agree that they shouldnt be taxed.
useless3y3s
Granted, but it's a valid point. Sales tax covers things that are not considered necessities, it's necessary for women to not bleed on stuff
cyno01
Was gonna say some feminists dont consider it a necessity, but i looked it up, guess the whole free bleeding movement was a 4chan hoax...
useless3y3s
No, it doesn't have anything to do with the pay scale, but why does it seem like everything is more expensive for women? Why do they pay 1/2
useless3y3s
2/2 a tax on something that keeps them from bleeding on everything once a month? How is it an optional item?
Remne
And why, in general, 'female products' (e.g. women's razors) cost more.
OperatorError
The moisturizers used and the quantity may also play a role. Ever seen a man's razor with aloe vera?
OmniscientZiltoid
Women's razors cost more because they can. There's nothing stopping women from buying men's razors. Some just prefer the purple ones.
TheImperiumOfMan02
Because they can sell them for that much.
billthecrusher
Explain why men pay more for car insurance for being worse drivers, however, women use medical insurance WAY more and do not pay more
imbatman58
That's totally untrue. Women do pay more for medical insurance as do their employers.
kojenk
because those are two separate systems and categories and are under different rules and belong to entirely separate industries?
useless3y3s
You explained the worse drivers thing, that is why you pay more for that. Health insurance pricing does not increase with use.
OperatorError
Except data shows that show that age, not gender, explains poor driving habits far better. Young people drive like shite.
OperatorError
Insurance is a bet that you will need the system - women use more medical insurance, and don't pay more.
BreadyStinellis
We do pay more in Co pays, lab fees, and all the stuff our insurance doesn't cover. Ask someone how much it cost to birth a child.
crushingbore
Young men drive even more like shit than young women.
OperatorError
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commuting/men-vs-women-who-are-better-drivers/article1389780/