Dalvorian29
159724
4803
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FP Edit: well I think I’m on the front page anyways. First time for everything. I guess send whatever you would like. Ill be curious to see what people send. Also it was great reading Everyone’s.......eh most dialogue.
barnabydog
no. this is stupid.
wellthisjustgotinteresting
Important note: education is about the chance, not the result
IveSeenYourButthole
In more obvious news, freedom isnt free.
IUpvoteRussianGTAPosts
Sounds great, I'd like a small loan of 1 million dollars please.
just1inafew1000
DrMcTouchy
True equality, in my eyes, is when nobody cares about a given trait, whether it's sex, race, etc.
Ginkawa
I agree. unfortunately there are some who will call you racist and sexist if you don't care about race/gender. its strange.
lecrinkle
Right, but equal chance means taking into account factors you might not realize or want to acknowledge.
Dalvorian29
Like what?
AManWhoWasntThere
LordoftheDance
Except that people as a whole will have statistically similar results if they have statistically similar opportunities.
o11c
If.
NordicJew
Truth! I wish everyone understood this. Even as a kid, I knew those trophies that I and everyone got was a flawed system.
canbot
Don't say that in college, you will be expelled. Appeasing minorities is their number one priority.
supersomatic
What do you do when all the chances have already been given, and none of them were equal? Now what?
MmmmmmDonuts
Are those nipples?
Kewra
Equity= equal access! Absolutely ! well explained thank you!
NotaCPA
Healthcare, education....etc
Lubanjo
sure I want the same chance as the kid that was given a business by his parents for his 18th birthday
dauberjagermonster
You could always marry into money so you get a business too, even if by proxy.
mintykiwi
yeah me too
1234canIhavealittlemore
Or maybe just a small loan of a million dollars...
StealTow
The parents worked hard to give their kid the business. Work hard and you might be able to give your kid something when they turn 18.
XedtheRed
Thats quitter talk, I started a buisness with no loan and a busted up astro van, going door to door doing oil changes...1/2
XedtheRed
2/2, Still doing oil changes, but the vans are much nicer and i even have a guy to go get me coffee
easysteezyweezy
Hey man good on ya. Progress is progress
SomeSortaPsycho
the quote is actually about the govt letting everyone have an equal chance at success or failure & not lifting ppl up based on birth 1/2
SomeSortaPsycho
status or punishing you bc of your parents actions.... not wether your parent did a shit job raising you or passing you down a multi 2/3
SomeSortaPsycho
million dollar company
TonawandaBlue
Then we shouldn't give the best opportunities to the lucky sperm club. Right?
Steelwind
Don't blink!
jennycone
You know I was thinking the same thing-don't blink
ImSureIHaveAnAccount
Fuck the Statue of Liberty pissed me off so much. It's in the middle of fucking New York for fuck's sake
Steelwind
Yeah that bit totally jumped the shark. Ruined the whole terror aspect of the angels.
RedDwarfIV
its not even made of stone
NastySwampBalls
Well said bro well said
SlamCampbell
Equity. You're thinking equity.
moonkin
the rephrasing of equity in terms of equality is often easier for most people to understand, esp. since it's being pushed as a 'good' thing.
Ginkawa
in current parlance, Equality is equal opportunity, and Equity is equal outcome.
malexmatt
Equity is either ownership; or is the alternative to justice, supplied by the King's prerogative (and, in practice, his chancellor) 1/
malexmatt
rather than the Courts. The former meaning derives from the latter, since much of contract law derives from the King's equity. Those 2/
malexmatt
whose causes could not be satisfied by a Court of Justice, could appeal to the King's Chancellor for treatment under equity. 3/3
malexmatt
So equity isn't an opposite to equality, it's an exception to justice. Lady Justice in this meme has nothing to do with equity.
GilaMonsieur
fairness vs. sameness
Meloncov
Thing is, people with above average outcomes will always ensure that their kids have above-average opportunities.
malbec
It makes for an interesting discussion. If life is conflict and competition, would you give your children every available chance to succeed?
Meloncov
There's nothing wrong with helping your children succeed, but society does have an obligation to ensure a certain baseline for everyone.
malbec
But what happens when you try to give that baseline, and people abuse it or choose not to take advantage of it? *cough* public education
malbec
*cough* choosing to be a victim. You can lead a horse to water etc etc.
KeeleonOhms
From a legal perspective everyone should start on the same playing feild. Of course life isnt fair after that.
Meloncov
If your argument is for equal treatment under the law, that's fine, but it's clearly not the same as equal opportunity.
ArchaicLavender
Essentially equality doesn't equal justice
throughthoughtthough
Thank you
bringbakfirefly
Everyone wants a piece of the pie even when they don't contribute.
Ericsterminator
Why does everyone deserve equality? Some people need a greater advantage over others. That's why humans are successful, we helped the weak.
MadDrDrillBit
1)yes but only if they're trying. im not here to carry some asshat when thay can walk just fine. Also not gonna help if you do stupid things
MadDrDrillBit
2) "like i told you bob, don't play with the drugs!" or "don't drop out of school bob so you don't starve" bob knows YOU , will carry him
ILoveMeAGoodTime
This right here is why capitalism, not socialism, corporatism, or any other system, is the best system
xrosstalk
Capitalism doesn't ensure equal chance. The goal of competition is to become a monopoly. Crush your competition til you are all that's left.
xrosstalk
I'm not advocating for any one system; but to look at capitalism through rose tinted glasses is at best naive, and at worst ignorant.
xrosstalk
I'm not trying to belittle or pick a fight, just asking you to be more aware of how the world around you works in practice.
ILoveMeAGoodTime
I here your point and that’s why I advocate busting up monopolies
xrosstalk
Happened before where the gov't broke up monopolies; I doubt it will happen again. AT&T in the 80's is and Clayton Act of 1914 are examples.
TeDmund
It's fallacy that progressives are aiming for equality of result, we're really just looking for people to stop being jackasses 1/2
TeDmund
And inequality of result is (not always) but often evidence of people being jackasses 2/2
PardusXY
You are using equality of result as your only metric for measuring equality... therefore you want equality of result.
TeDmund
You didn't include the "stop being jackasses" in your logic
PardusXY
How do you measure that? How do you know you have reached your goal? When can we get back to important issues instead of abusing ppl?
Ginkawa
I don't think thats necessarily a reasonable conclusion. there are also huge natural disparities in ability, drive, ambition, ect.
TeDmund
No its not a given but its a good start for consideration
LizardEnterprises
An equal chance, right? So a 100% estate tax, and we outlaw all private education?
glassware
Fuck yeah!
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Private education on average isn't even better than public schools, when you account for the tactics they use to up their scores. Like 1/2
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Kicking out bad students, which is surprising they need to seeing as they make easier classes than public school. 2/2
LizardEnterprises
Bullshit. A degree from Harvard will unlock a lot more doors than a degree from your local community college. It's *unequal*.
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
I'm not talking about college dumbass. I'm talking about k-12 not sure if you're an idiot or intentionally misconstrue what I said.
LizardEnterprises
Good for you. I'm Not. Equality of opportunity includes *ALL* Education.
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Literally nobody has ever claimed public colleges do just as well a job as harvard. Or any other ivy league college.
LizardEnterprises
Including no one in this conversation. That's my point, dumbass.
Antsonyourass
He's talking about scores
LizardEnterprises
Good for him, but that argument is a cop-out. The post is about equality of opportunity, not equality of test scores.
BadJewBigChicago
Don't say that too loud, the Left will accuse you of heresy and frame you for sexual harrassment
SocialMediaMakesUsLessSocial
Go die on your cross already
BadJewBigChicago
Who? Me?
Dalvorian29
Lol say nothing against the left they will downvote you
WalkerCalvert
So you're saying you want to account for the basic inequality of opportunity that confronts women, people of color, etc? Good call! I agree.
BadJewBigChicago
Inequality of opportunity........ when you grow up and go job hunting you will see that this is just political speak and not reality.
WalkerCalvert
Bahahahahahaaaaaa a. Oh goodness.
davidsarif
Lol. Fucking ridiculous bubble you're in.
MadMupp
You say that but I said the exact same thing & I'm apparently a typical white male who cant stand seeing women or black people succeed
thecolonels
I just think youre a whiny pussy
MadMupp
Im a whiny pussy because I said everyone should be given equal opportunities & not just handed shit??? Tell me are you retarded?
Blu8
Ah yes, anecdotal evidence, best type of evidence.
bigdaddyfatpants
KeeleonOhms
No in reality only 1 guy has a box and yhe "1%" are the ones in the stands.
MattDamonCobraCommander
The ultimate goal is to remove the fence.
witchzenka
AND THEN STORM THE FIELD!
nellasgoboom
So my thought is, the guy in blue took time to become tall enough to see over, and like many started as red/purple. 1/2
nellasgoboom
So why should purple start where blue is now with out the time and effort it takes to get there
nellasgoboom
Some start lower than others, some higher than others, but the majority start very similar is my point
ceepurps
If you have a box it's easier to acquire further boxes. People inherit boxes. Boxes harder to get in some areas. We don't "start similar".
malbec
The only way this image is a true representation is if you removed the bottom text, and showed the before panel where they made the boxes.
skorve
.
DoctorBambu
Yellow pants guy in the right-hand frame should be giving the other two a golden shower if theyre gonna label it reality.
ThePerfectGif
InboxMeYourHDGIFs
"Trickle down"
SitDownAndStudy
And red shit in the center should be blaming the guy in the hole for him getting showered on.
Gallus1985
In the USA this picture wouldn't be accurate. The guy with a ton of boxes would have 1000 boxes stacked up.
KeeleonOhms
No, the rich people are inside the stadium.
malbec
Sure, if they spent the time to make that many boxes for themselves.... that’s really what’s happening here.
Gallus1985
Insinuating that the ultra wealthy "make" anything themselves.
Gallus1985
While also insinuating that the society they live in didn't invest in itself to allow for the conditions to make it possible?
malbec
Work smarter, not harder
Gallus1985
Trust fund harder.
IAmThePrincess
Inaccurate picture.
KeeleonOhms
Its a metaphor....
bigdaddyfatpants
Because it's a drawing.
Mendeleyev1
And because it is accurate
secretagentchewbacca
Elaborate?
ThePurplePlatypus2
It’s probably because they’re brown
MickChester
All of them are brown.
ThePurplePlatypus2
Too far?
thelastcoolbrandon
fpierce1997
Never.
bigdaddyfatpants
All the bullshit wouldn't work if people realized many problems are socioeconomic. People are easily controlled being told race is the prob.
DudePlayinADudeDisguisedAsAnotherDude
The “socio” part is where ethnoracial grouping come in. Race and SES are connected.
bigdaddyfatpants
Of course it does. Go to a certain locations and skin color don't matter. You're suck if you are there. Lower income acrossed the board.
DudePlayinADudeDisguisedAsAnotherDude
Nah. In most places skin color does matter. Even among the poor or rich, hierarchies still exist.
Xenadon
People of color make up a disproportionate amount of low SES people so you're right but the two issues go hand in hand.
bigdaddyfatpants
Of course they do, we are speaking of an entire race of people that were harvesting crops as slave labour not to long ago. 1/2
bigdaddyfatpants
The city of Detroit was under martial law because of race riots not 50 years ago. Is it getting better yes. Our leaders need us to hate 2/3
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Generational poverty is a thing. USA is especially prone to it with how schools work. School having trouble? Take away funding. That'll 1/2
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Fix it! - actually how a large amount of funding is decided. We run schools based on laws of economic Darwinism. Which just doesn't work. 2/
thicketcosplay
I showed this to a Trumper once and he went on a rant about how they're all stealing for not buying tickets.
malbec
He’s not wrong
thicketcosplay
Yeah, but completely misses the point the picture is trying to make.... In reality, it's not about who is stealing the best.
thicketcosplay
While I agree that it's technically correct, it's just completely ignoring and distracting from the social commentary the picture is making
malbec
That’s the problem with this type of political imagery... it ignores almost all relevant info to drive home one point that the artist wants
malbec
It’s as bad as the saying “is it ok for a starving man to steal bread to feed his hungry family?” There are so many other variables “but
Pinecube
Equality of opportunity or equality of outcome? One is consistent with a free people and the other requires a police state.
spetcnaz
That's a blanket statement. There are times that equality of outcome has to be enforced. However most of the time what people want is equal
spetcnaz
opportunity for the most. Obviously a Hilton kid will always have more opportunities. But we are talking about the majority.
spetcnaz
That's why I like how gov. employees have pay classifications. So no matter who you are. If you are in that group you get that pay.
ambiencenever
A police state never leads to an equality of outcome. Never understood why people say this.
obarey
Except equality of opportunity doesn't exist anywhere on Earth yet.
Nccoffee
Exactly, unless the playing field is even how are we ever going to find out that strait white men really are the best??
supraman2turbo
history books already confirmed that. Not because they were necessarily better but circumstances led to the advancement of western europe
frogglesmash
Asian-Americans out perform whites in almost every are of western society.
Nccoffee
Aeroengineering
Qouldnt eqaulity of outcome be communism?
WoeToHice
No, it wouldn't. And it's not that hard to open Wikipedia and look it up, either.
Vadered
No. Communism in theory means everyone owns everything. In practice it tends to mean the people making the decisions own everything.
MadDrDrillBit
its not equal though, the top 1% rule and live wonderful lives of luxury, 99% have to kiss ass and tattle on friends to get "extra".
takhat
If the outcome is mass starvation
ForgotMyOtherAcct
Communism.meams the state/people/common man owns the means of production/everything in the country. Equality of outcome is maybe a result
ForgotMyOtherAcct
Of that, in that everyone ends with Jack and shit. It might be better to think of equality of outcomes poster child being a hippie commune.
moonkin
yes, which is why the people calling for it are referred to as cultural marxists.
VigorousButtstuff
Depends on what you mean by that. If two people do the same work with the same skill and quality, then yes, there should be an equal outcome
VigorousButtstuff
That said, no, gender-studies dropouts shouldn't get the same paycheck as the CEO of Amazon.
DrMcTouchy
'Equality of outcome' is supported by people who want freedom from the consequences of their actions.
woobboomooboo
Or the consequences of other people’s actions
QuitLookinAtMineAim
Well no one wants to lose, but not everyone wants to work hard either. I wish there was a simple answer
thegraybush
I'm going to screenshot this and make it my wallpaper on my phone. Truer words I haven't seen in a while.
hifive2wifei
Ironically, so is ‘equality of opportunity’ https://youtu.be/vwx5IvypC5Q
PerhapsAnotherPerspective
How about a likely untenable, and purely theoretical middle ground: equality of outcome conditional on equality of "effort." Not everyone 1/
PerhapsAnotherPerspective
random chance. 3/3
PerhapsAnotherPerspective
can always help in the same way, or to the same extent, but given the level of contribution, outcome shouldn't be purely a product of 2/
PerhapsAnotherPerspective
NOTE: Again, for the record, I realize this is impossible to determine and police, but I do think keeping in mind exactly what the "first>>
PerhapsAnotherPerspective
best" solution would look like makes sure that we develop policies that are compatible with our social preferences. (Hence, as many on here>
PerhapsAnotherPerspective
on all sides of the political spectrum agree, at least some social programs are worth funding.)
FreakedFack
It's not 'freedom from the consequences'; it's negation of consequence, like drunk driving not expecting to cause accidents.
DrMcTouchy
Exactly. I like your wording better.
FreakedFack
I think I have a lot of positive associations with the word 'freedom'. I felt it didn't fit.
fpierce1997
Either way, I agree with you both.
Comet260
https://media1.tenor.com/images/1a1b6a2de5d6a52c08ab020f2ca2769f/tenor.gif?itemid=5521468
hypocritter
Same.
clearlymd
Eh what about dumb people or disabled people. Should they be worse off in life just for that?
dauberjagermonster
Medically dumb? Is that a thing? Cant you just say disabled?
IBringGoodTiddiesAndRear
In a way... yes. I have a nerve condition, my life is not going to be as good as someone who can physically do stuff I can't. It's not 1/?
DrMcTouchy
I'm happy to see my taxes go to help them. That's not exactly what I'm referring to.
Michaeljaxson
Do you realize how bad the government is a spending your money. If you want to help you can. Don't just trust the man with your hard work
Michaeljaxson
People can choose to help. Don't make them, that's theft
IBringGoodTiddiesAndRear
"fair" that I have a nerve condition, but it's also not "fair" to take away from someone who is able bodied just so I'm on the same level. 2
SmolRat
I’d be happy to pay a bit more in taxes if everyone can get free healthcare & what-not. We need a single payer system & to change how 1/2
DaedaIus
I'd rather not force everyone who doesn't want to pay. Don't tax anyone, you can go to charities to donate that money.
SmolRat
hospitals charge for stuff. (Like $27 for one Tylenol pill) I’d be happy knowing everyone could go to the doc w/ out going bankrupt. 2/2
spetcnaz
That's not how society works
nothisisntme
But without some leveling of outcomes, people's opportunities become pretty unequal. See intergenerational poverty, for example.
Molvanian
The equality of opportunity has to actually be equal. Not "It's equal if you all had the same amount of money."
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
The issue with that in America is many of the needed things for that to work would need overhauled. Like having 50 school systems. 1/2
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Quality education is a major factor of success, and with how the USA systen works it just automatically creates inequality. 2/2
Molvanian
Yes, that is a real problem. Problems can be solved.
iPretend
Intergenerational poverty comes from being unable to accumulate wealth. With property and estate taxes severely limit.
nothisisntme
Wat
magicrhombus
lolwut. Inherited wealth is how you get an aristocratic class. People with nothing to pass on don't benefit from it.
MadDrDrillBit
1)it is precisely the leveling of outcomes that produce i.g. pov., exp if you make more than x you get benefits cut off, so no one tries.
TheLazyLibrarian
You're ignoring the problem nothisisntme pointed out. To put it simply, intergenerational poverty is a consequence of inheritances in 1/2
TheLazyLibrarian
first generation causing unequal opportunity amongst the people in the second generation. It got nothing to do with incentives. 2/2
MadDrDrillBit
1)so thay are being tought bad life skills and choices, some to be sure but you need to look at income mobility statistics as well, most
MadDrDrillBit
2)merit based outcome is the only fair way to be free. Otherwise those handing out the goods become inextricably powerful.
ForgotMyOtherAcct
It doesn't seem like your two posts match. Like, the first one seems in favor of handing off wealth to one's kids, the second does not.
WellThatsLikeYourOpinonMan
Ok that’s all well and good but we don’t exactly have a meritocracy in the US soooo
Molvanian
I'm inclined to agree, but I think the real issue is actual equality of opportunities. "Anyone with fifty million dollars..." isn't really C
Molvanian
open to anyone. Your resources should not determine other peoples chances. But take a +1, because you are getting shat on.
Crawmak
Neither of which are represented by America.
moonkin
nothing's perfect anywhere, but we're doing a better job than most in aspiring to it considering that it's an unachievable ideal.
dmoore182
That would be true if we didn't have successful immigrants or minorities.
RealNormMacDonald
There's an exception to every rule
barnsandnobel
True but there is a trend of underfunding of majorly minority schools which i will provide a link to.
moonkin
i got links, too. http://www.heritage.org/education/report/the-myth-racial-disparities-public-school-funding
barnsandnobel
Well we both came up with valid links, im going to say you win cause i don't feel like debating.
barnsandnobel
Unless you want to go and confirm the information with me.
MadDrDrillBit
Who's underfunding? those who you elect. why even give them that power? School choice puts parents in charge not the politicians.
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
That's not how that works. School funding comes from property taxes mostly. Also outside cities with multiple nearby schools you can't switc
barnsandnobel
with the new tax bill, its going to hurt public schools in major cities.
barnsandnobel
https://www.educationdive.com/news/education-law-center-report-examines-inequity-in-school-funding/416090/