Odoyyoxigoyxc
58385
1584
43
https://youtube.com/shorts/IJVnnelG6m4?si=QywCSQFc-eBV0Umo
https://youtube.com/shorts/I_ZehLWyYM4?si=Kfl1HsFSke8mogne
Jun 18, 2024 10:10 AM
Odoyyoxigoyxc
58385
1584
43
https://youtube.com/shorts/IJVnnelG6m4?si=QywCSQFc-eBV0Umo
https://youtube.com/shorts/I_ZehLWyYM4?si=Kfl1HsFSke8mogne
BoobJiggle
I got into an argument on here several months back, I had stated that we owed the Arabs a lot for preserving history, science, and mathematics after the Temple of Alexandria, and other losses throughout history, sure could have used this back then lol
mybigdorkenergy
I looked him up, and I am questioning his credibility. There’s a whole subreddit on the topic; just know before you post :)
astronomypictures
Once you see this guy talking about recent-ish history of your own country, you realise he adds a LOT of shit as if its a certainty. gelman amnesia
rigello
Second part is mostly BS. Upon closer inspection you'll see that 'Arabs' like al-Khwarizmi or Ibn Sina (and many others) were actually Persian. Add to that converted (often forcibly) peoples of Levant, Jews, Syrians, Egyptians etc. Call it Islamic Golden age, praise it, but do not twist the truth.
SushiJaguar
Baghdad House of Wisdom, right?
AgnostosQue
I would like to see sources before believing Arabs had discovered Kepler's first law.
Pally01
Now lets see how the arabs are doing in the 21st Century!
tombeithemist
Or, in a hundred years, how say Floridians have fared, given certain books are banned, certain histories glossed over or untaught..
NeutralSmith
They were smart, but then religion came, and all development stopped.
crabePeople
This happened after Islam came
makesense
Look, it is definitely true that a ton of knowledge was discovered during the Muslim Golden Age. But it is also true that, just like most places, centuries of war caused some of that to be lost not to mention the new rulers weren't keen on sharing knowledge that could be used to supplant them. It's no different than the Library of Alexandria. Tons of knowledge lost that took centuries before others rediscovered it and wrote it down again.
makesense
We should give credit to the knowledge that has been opened up to us in modern times to those who wrote it. Both those who did so originally and to those who did so again not knowing it had already been done before.
Cartoones
Who did it then? Who wanted to write out these achievements?
TheJuiceLoosener
I take issue w crediting Cyrus with the "first" Bill of Rights. Hammurabi's Code is from the 18th century BC, and while it may be implicit, it's very implicitly a Bill of Rights. The purpose of the code of laws was not to bind the people, but to bind the ruler. It lays out the things you can be prosecuted for, the idea being that if it isn't on the list, you can't be prosecuted for that. This is a BIG advance in legal theory. Til then, it was beware of ruler. Hammurabi's code ended that.
vuvuzevka
Well considering "beware of ruler(s)" it still kinda a thing every fucking where, I wouldn't say "ended" as much "suggested it might not be that great a thing"
Zyxs975
I remember reading that during the Islamic golden age preserving and pursuing science was seen as a study of god itself, to the point where they reached a conundrum, where they debated if the world is in fact non-deterministic, and therefore an all powerful god couldn't even be feasible.
Ultimately their political system was still feudalistic and with tensions arising between the ruling classes and outside pressure (Mongols) they steered away from science gradually into a decline.
electricwizard
Exactly, politics is the culprit for the decline, not religion. The religion asks you to contemplate the universe, therefore caliphs poured money into sciences. Later on, rulers had more pressing matters to finance, especially wars from the outside and also the inside.
Ryebread91
#2 was that knowledge known to newton and bacon and their contemporaries or was it rediscovered later on after they had made them?
AgnostosQue
Don't believe anything you hear. I haven't read anywhere that Kepler's first law was discovered by Arabs, and I believe I would have known. Searching online didn't yield any results either
DJOldguy
Yes, this is all true, but that didn't fit with Christian dogmatic racial supremacy so we rewrote it to suit ourselves. But we gotta change the history books at elementary schools to get past that cultural prejudice, and you think Trumplicunts gonna allow that to happen?
TheCroaker
I mean, its not just arabs, greeks, and many other civilizations either had their knowledge lost to time, or a religion, usually christian but not only them, came in and burned it away
massholesome
Gee I wonder what those in the Americas would say about this? Oh wait...
PassionAggressive
Deleted my last comment as it seems I was woefully misinformed. After being challenged on the views I expressed, I went to research what I said I couldn’t find anything to support it. I don’t remember where I came across the information but it wasn’t too long ago, 2 years at most. It’s seems I was duped by some prick who started with truth and went off the rails soon after. If you read my misinformation, I apologize.
PassionAggressive
I found some talks by NDT that were sort of on the same topic but he seems to have mistaken in a few things he claimed, however he did not go as deep down the bullshit hole as I did.
OngoGoblogianTheArtCollector
This guy loves just making things up, listen to him with extreme caution, I've heard him say many things that are just straight up false
friendsofsandwiches
This and the teachers I got in highschool are why I will always respect and LISTEN to history teachers. At least as far as I remembered, they told us the straight shit about history.
MrPappagiorgioFromYuma
ATacoWalksIntoABar
Arabs also invented 0-9 numbering system … but I’m not sure who is unaware of Arabic contributions to human culture? Is it the same ppl who think the world was created 5000 years ago?
androgenoide
Might be better to say that Arabs brought the Indian system to Europe.
crateo
Who got it from the Chinese.
androgenoide
The written form of the Arabic numbers is visibly similar to the Indian form and the European form is clearly related to the Arabic form. Chinese written forms look pretty different unless you know of some older form that more clearly resembles the Indian...
crateo
Well, they are separated by 1000 years, but they are decimal base positional notation and similar to certain extent. Keep in mind this is only one of the Chinese numeral systems.
yowalkonthefaceofshreck
All the things in the second clip also come from the various Iranian ethnicities (not arabs) in the midst of attempted genocide following the islamic conquests.
piephiq
What are the citations on these Astronomy claims (keplers laws)? Genuinely interested in reading I to this. Citations to revelation don’t count .
electricwizard
Google Ibn al-Shatir
SalmySwims
Not sure about Kepler's Law, but indeed, many of the names of the stars that we use in English are Arabic or derived from it. Alkaid, Fomalhaut, Alnair, Acamar, Mintaka, Altair, Adhara, Baten Kaitos, Rigel, Rukbat, Arrakis (yes), Spica....
piephiq
Naming of stars isn’t astrophysics. I’m interested in the literature on what was claimed here — that keplers laws were first derived earlier in history; That objects traveled on conic sections about the sun based on observations, or p^2 is proportional to r^3.
Leithoa
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world
JanusLeeJones
Kerpler's laws aren't mentioned in that link.
androgenoide
And that's how Cyrus became a messiah.
AgnostosQue
Indeed. It's not widely known, at least I didn't know it until I decided to read the entire thing, that there were actually several messiahs and one of them was Cyrus
androgenoide
European kings were invested by putting a crown on their heads. Hebrew kings were invested by pouring oil on their heads. A messiah is one who had had the oil treatment, i.e. a legit king.
androgenoide
So Cyrus was only an "honorary" messiah and Jesus (technically) wasn't one at all.
MioTaalas
Then became a guy who preached that mathematics is from the devil and the fall of Arabic culture in the cusps of Islam began. It hasn't recovered since....
Never omit that when talking about the golden age of Arabic culture.
Slayage
This is such a stupid take on al ghazali and Islamic history in general, that's for some reason mainstream so called knowledge in the west. This is a great video on the subject. https://youtu.be/ZL-ZxXQ6HCU?si=zHazebKZWly0vB21
SufiJiuJitsu
This has been spread repeatedly by Neil Degrasse Tyson despite being debunked repeatedly and it's getting embarrassing. Never take Islamic intellectual history from him. One example: https://youtu.be/1qLSzhuTCXc?si=FAnHgFDqvPXTRkV1
TheJuiceLoosener
I think it's ok to omit that sometimes. We can discuss the achievements of the Romans without always mentioning their war crimes or the demise of their empire. Ditto for many, many, many other cultures, peoples, periods, civilizations, and achievements.
JabesMcJabesface
If you talk about the demise of the empire, it is worth mentioning that the Republic was extremely successful, a lot of their degradation and fall was as an empire.
FurtiveGlancer
I would add a footnote nevertheless - in case we thought all the victors were winners and all around good people
ArchDukeArchibald
Al Ghazali never said math is evil despite what you learned from Neil Degrasse Tyson. The closest he said to anything like that is that 'going into excess of anything is destructive'. In fact in the same book he says that 'it's a communal obligation for people to learn the praised sciences of medicine and mathematics'. Tyson doesn't know what he's talking about, it's not his field.
gypsyspot
Tyson has a blind spot for things not directly in his field. Medicine for example.
Slayage
It's not just Tyson that gets ghazali wrongm even this talk about a golden age that was ended by him personally and after that it went downhill is so silly and a very orientalist take. This guy has a good video on the subject https://youtu.be/ZL-ZxXQ6HCU?si=zHazebKZWly0vB21
EchoDelta141
Look what religion has done to an intelligent, modern, evolving society. Its control of the populous, its cult mentality. We are so far behind in terms of peace and elevating the state of humanity all because of fucking religion.
crabePeople
Most of this happened during the Islamic golden age
IOftenDeleteCommentsCauseISuckAtTyping
That's what makes me laugh about the timeline of white people. There are literal millenia of non-white cultures growing, learning, and otherwise figuring out really cool shit, and white have the audacity to spread across the globe murdering and stealing knowledge only to come home and say "well, boys, that it. We know everything."
IOftenDeleteCommentsCauseISuckAtTyping
Yes, I'm being a little reductive for the sake of a joke. Yes, I know that warring and pillaging has been taking place everywhere by everyone for pretty much ever.
SushiJaguar
Shame it didn't teach you by example not be racist, eh?
iggylights
I love this guy. Just discovered his channel on Instagram and look forward to his posts every day.
bacter
his series on the aztecs (on YT) was a blast to listen to
OngoGoblogianTheArtCollector
He is extremely liberal with what you might call "facts" He will often just make up things that sound good, but for which there is no basis. There are alot of great history content out there, this guy is not one if them
IDriveAMinivan
Our kids went to the same school till the pandemic. He’s a nice guy.
cazzegiare
Just have to be careful – he's very relaxed with what is right and goes for the most wonderful sounding angle. I don't think some of his points would pass muster among historians.
coffeegut
i basically cracked open the comments to ask about this, because i like his general demeanor but I've heard him say a few things that are disputed with absolute confidence and never mention that they are the subject of ongoing research and debate...was wondering if anybody else got the impression that he wasn't 100% on the level
OngoGoblogianTheArtCollector
relaxed is a nice way to say it, much of what he says are lust lies
Kiiiiiittttyyyyyyyy
I just looked up a video of a talk he gave on a subject I know and there's an immediate factual error.
Hured
What’s his name?
CrispyNougat
Albert Einstein
Goldensands
Dr. Roy Casagranda. Collective history on YouTube. Consider also Dr. Michael Sugrue by the same name on YouTube, best lectures on philosophy. Crash course by the Green brothers will always have something good on a subject as well.
Twinklepot
Goldensands
My pleasure. I love sharing great educational material. Feel free to poke if you want to discuss any of its subjects.
iamthemanwithnoname
I think we need to stop saying 'Written out of history' and say 'Written out of high school history class'. I studied history at university and this is well know and academically agreed stuff.
Superstzday
i think the problem is that it is written out of culture. a lot of people don't go to college, and many who do never learn this history.
Churchofthesubgenius
This is how we end up with western chauvanism
heyletsbefriends
university level history and academia are being written out of history!
BishlamekGurpgork
I mean, if you write it out of high school history, that IS writing it out of a cultural baseline of knowledge, by and large. Most people who go to college don't go to it for a field that requires history classes.
I don't think anybody's arguing that this is lost and secret knowledge that this one man somehow found on a scroll that he dug out of an ancient tomb.
lemmerustlethosejimmies
I'm also going to say that everyone keeps saying wow we should be teaching this stuff in high school and it's like yes but history is staggeringly large. For all regions and cultures. I just don't find it feasible. The Italian Wars. ALL of African history. The multi-millenia complex history of the Chinese Empires. South America and its numerous cultures. Anglo-Saxon history. The Nordic nations. Let's not forget Eastern Europe. Ah yes and central Eurasia. it's all just... a little too large.
EdmundandHarald365
More accurately we should say 'written out of history by despotic theocratic regimes'. Some of these discoveries were 'written' out of history by Arab leaders. Some discoveries were rediscoveries from the ancient greeks. It's never as simple as the people with an agenda want you to believe.
PiercedViking
So you're saying that this information is just locked behind a paywall.
iamthemanwithnoname
Sort of, yeah. The privatisation of education is a threat at all academic levels.
tankmayvin
It's also a gross oversell (or a reductionist presentation) of the physics/science history to state that, for instance, Al-Baghdad postulated F=ma, before Newton but wasn't given credit for the discovery.
gesel
I learned a lot of this in high school but aside from the angry anti-western rant flavor, it is interesting history and should serve to remind people of what can be destroyed by religious extremism. Look upon these great works and weep...
GreenMnM
The first comment I made to my history professor was that I loved history because history does not change. To which she replied that history changes all the time and things are always being disputed and rewritten and Yada Yada. And I said simply that the facts do not change. History does not change. OUR interpretation of it, as well as our rewriting of it, changes. It's all about perspective and access to information. If you have enough info, you may be able to figure out the truth yourself
Tarmaccian
More importantly, if one teaches history as just “so-and-so did this thing first”, they’re a bad teacher. #1 does it better: “after X happened, it led to Y”.
The most important part of any history study is to understand the causes of major events. Knowing that some dude wrote some idea in some book on some date is ultimately just trivia.
The West kept a lot of that real history recorded and available. Other cultures, less so, but we’re slowly finding more.
DuckPlanetKing
No he is right. History is white washed. Even Jesus is white now lol.
jasondeslin
Higher education is expensive, and conservatives hate education in general.
It's not even that it's not mentioned earlier.
The worst part is that lies are still told in grade school. And conservatives hate admitting when they are wrong, so what they learned first is absolute truth, and everything else is liberal lies.
Free speech must have limits. No one should be allowed to claim something is history, or news, if it is a lie.
They want to spread lies, they can call it religion.
GreatOdinsTaint
Yeah college level history was a big shocker for me and many of my peers at the time. And it's why Republicans uniformly want to keep their kids in private schools even through college - to maintain the historical narrative of white supremacy
Ultratoxic
Well, with higher education costs skyrocketing, the number of people going to a 4 year university where they might hear this in a class unrelated to their major is getting smaller and smaller. In America anyways.
Abacadaba
Time is a zero sum game. To teach one thing in HS history class means neglecting a plethora of other things. If schools just kept adding "well that history should be taught in High School" then High School would become one long history class. US students are already way above the OECD average for time spent attending class.
Freemage69
Sure, but if you take scince in hs, you'll get taught about Bacon, Kepler, etc. The fact that these men were functionally reinventing the wheel from Arab discoveries could be included. It would also emphasize that scientific methods will ultimately produce the same results when applied properly.
joshuasplinth
I agree, but I feel like academia isn’t the point. The discussion is about being good curators of history, and understanding that not all young learners will go to college. What they see and hear in the short time we have them needs to be concise and relatable. I’m in Tally; world history is 6th (taught 15 yrs), they then have 2nd 1/2 world history in 10th. That’s it.
joshuasplinth
The shortness we have to teach them the origins of these truly complex topics, and the general veneer of Trumpy anti-intellectualism that exists, allows for these 100% true and awesome and relevant things to be lost in the “Murica #1” shuffle. Also, the kids are CRAZY apathetic, typically to this stuff. It seemed it would take an act of God to get them to remember that world history is “Social Studies” in their planners.
thisistheusernamethatneverendss
Lots of things were discovered independently by peoples around the world. Before modern publishing and copying, lots of discoveries went unnoticed for hundreds of years before gaining recognition
triggrhaapi
Correct.
ArdentNature
Yeah, more like "written out of Christian history".
JesaraB
Yeah lots of what is being discussed Here was written out of history because it undermined the position of the church, and that wasn't allowed, so it only slowly filtered back in when it was old enough to no longer be seen as a danger to the establishment.
KillingTlme
Nope, it was all discovered by white people. If it wasn't done by white people, then it was probably Aliens.
KillingTlme
/s
IAmTheMandalore
Hey, are you a screenwriter for the History Channel by any chance?
Dobbies
As Catholicism held back science in Europe, did Islam act as a break on science in the Arab world? When God has all the answers, there's no need to ask questions.
crateo
Catholicism did what? They were the only ones sponsoring science in the middle ages at the scholastic universities. Same as Madrasas in the Islamic world.
VictusVonGuyver
The Arab world actually rescued a ton of knowledge from the Christian world. While Christian movement and wars were destroying books and libraries, the wealthier Arab dynasties were discovering these existing hubs of knowledge and wanted it translated.
So a lot of powerful leaders actually hired scholars and priests and/or monks to translate and preserve those works.
So countless books from Europe were salvaged, bought, transported, and translated that would otherwise have been lost to time.
donorkort
The Islamic Golden Age of the ~8th century is well-documented as a time of prosperity, both scientifically and economically, but as with all religious things, it depended strongly on the people with the power. They were more advanced up than Europeans until the beginning of the Middle ages, where they were then roughly on par throughout, until the great boom leading up to the European industrialization set them behind.
RTK4740
That last sentence about God and answers feels like an empty platitude.
astronomypictures
The monasteries in Ireland were famous for keeping knowledge alive and written and passed down for centuries during the so called dark ages in Europe, stop with the simplistic take-down nonsense, times change and history is complex.
electricwizard
Islam asks you to contemplate the universe. It never stops you from asking questions. A prime example is Abraham's story in the Quran where he experimented with worshipping the moon and sun, but then came to the conclusion that it's not the right way. A lot of people equate all religions to what the corrupt clergy did in the middle ages for money and power, and it's not true.
HereticsAllOfYou
Neither Catholicism nor Islam held back science. That's not how scientific progress works.
patnine
?
pleaseconsiderthatImightbejoking
This isn't true. The Catholic church was the patron of science right trough the medieval era and into the 17th century. It's only recently that governments and corporations have taken that mantel. Scholasticism, the forerunner to science, developed in Christian monasteries, were you still had people with the knowledge of ancient Greek and Latin to read the worked of antiquity, and it was this institution that developed into the first universities. Even today most of the most active 1/2
pleaseconsiderthatImightbejoking
universities in scientific research can trace their origins to either to these universities Catholic church, or to later protestant institutions based on them. 2/2
undeadtedmosby
Was it specifically Catholicism (Rome & Papacy) or Christianity in general?
patnine
"A German monk, Luther began the Protestant movement in 1517 by rebelling against the authority of the Catholic Church." I hope this helps you look at the past.
In the Present, it's Not-All-Protestants ... it's the Special ones we call "Bible Thumpers" that want everyone to take the Bible literally. Some of my best friends are protestants and catholics, heh. ;-)
MarioBoon
Islamic scholars saved the knowledge from the the ancient greeks and expanded on those. Catholic scholars were forbidden.
crateo
Forbidden where? They were more than welcome to translate Latin texts.
MarioBoon
Not Greek texts, which is what I'm referring to. Many Greek texts never were translated and scientists studied from the greek.
crateo
Hmmm, Greek texts were less common but still distributed. After all, Aristotle was the reference for the Roman catholic church for centuries.
MarioBoon
Perhaps, but lots of scientific texts were lost of deeply buried in monastic libraries (the name of the Rose is not purely fiction) due to religious dogma. Islamic scholars were encouraged to expand on those ideas.