throwawayscientist
65807
2052
72
I'm a pre-clinical medical researcher
I know imgur loves work stories, but I'm not sure how people will respond to this. Animal research is something that people are at best, uncomfortable with (for understandable reasons) and at worst, violently offended by. This post is almost more about the lives of the animals than it is about my experiences as a researcher, maybe someone will find it interesting. However, I know that many people look down on this type of thing. I am prepared for everything from downvotes to death threats.
because of my work contract, the details in this post will be vague.
Most people on imgur seem to be pretty against the anti-vaccine 'movement' (thankfully), but one of the unfortunate realities of vaccine development is that they absolutely require the use of animals in testing. Though there are methods under production of testing vaccines and medicines without using any animals, it's going to be a long time before any of that is really workable (ironically, those techniques will have to be vetted against countless studies that do use animals to see if it really works). As of now, you can be sure that the reason that your children are able to be successfully immunized against disease is thanks to the sacrifice of thousands of animals, mostly mice. We owe our relatively disease-free lifestyles to the little guys. It really puts things in perspective to think how our society is built on the backs of these creatures who occasionally eat each others' faces over minuscule territory disputes.
The facility I work in does everything from developing vaccines, to testing the effects of drugs.
This is a bit of an exaggeration. My facility uses both rabbits and mice, but for different purposes. Both animals are given spacious cages, food, water, toys, etc. They have all the amenities of a cared for pet. The difference is that rabbits get used for antibody experiments, and mice get used for drug and vaccine testing. this means that rabbits go about their lives pretty comfortably, getting a needle stuck in them about once a week, whether it be to draw blood or inject them with something (depending on what the experiment is). Of course rabbits dont like needles, but they typically get used to it. I have never seen a rabbit killed in our lab for any reason, and when we're done with whatever experiment they're part of, we give them away. Usually an intern or friend of an employee adopts them. It's much cheaper for us to adopt them out-- and then later buy new rabbits-- then it would be to keep housing and feeding the same ones forever when they're not being used. Also their cages are pretty huge. I actually feel bad for most pet rabbits, as the cages their owners usually give them are tiny and cramped. Rabbits like space, and ours are comparatively spoiled.
Mice however are not quite as lucky. No mouse that enters our facility ever exits alive. the experiments we use them for are usually in research of life threatening diseases, vaccines, or medications that can help against a disease after it's contracted. Even if the experimental treatment works, and a mouse survives the disease we've infected it with, we still euthanize the mouse so that we can examine it's internal organs for traces of the disease, damage caused by the drug, etc. this is something a lot of people can't quite wrap their mind around-- people would like to hear that we just let them go after we've cured the illness, but no dice. It's important to look for toxic effects of the drug, and the best way to do that is by taking out the organs. It's only polite to do that after the mouse is deceased. We do euthanize them as humanely as possible, typically by CO2 asphyxiation.
The experiments we perform do typically decrease the quality of life for the animals. Big surprise-- no one likes being infected with a disease, and mice are no exception. That said, we do spend hours every day monitoring the health of each animal, and if they are in to bad of shape, we euthanize them. We're not torturers.
On the other hand, they don't hate everything we do to them. Some procedures involve giving the mice a sugary medication. They fuckin love that shit. And I've never seen a more compliant mouse than the ones in the THC testing program.
I think a lot of people imagine animal research scientists as being emotionless automatons with no sympathy for the animals we use. It's true that some of the more grizzled veterans of the pre-clinical research industry can get pretty desensitized, but none of us are without care for the animals. Personally, I think of them sort of like pikmin (if you havent played the gamecube game, you wont get the reference). I feel bad for them when they die, but ultimately we need to make the sacrifice for the greater good. A lot of us use dark humor to mask the discomfort of inflicting pain on other living creatures, but we all understand that it's going towards a good cause. Even so, a lot of potential employees/interns leave quickly because they can't stand the nature of the work.
we put a lot of work into being as precise and efficient as we can at every procedure we do. More precision = fewer accidents = less unnecessary suffering for the mice. we also design experiments to use as few mice as possible while still yielding sufficient data.
I belong to a family of animal lovers, some of whom would probably freak out if they knew that some days I'll spend an entire shift dissecting dead mice. I consider myself an animal lover too, I have two dogs and a cat who i love very much, and it took a while for me to adapt to the job, even though I have a love for science. I prefer the parts of the job that dont involve working with animals, but you do what you've got to. Working with mice means putting up an emotional and social barrier. It means a lot of lying through my teeth to friends and family about the nature of my work. The only people who know the specifics are my girlfriend and my parents. Fortunately though, most people wont know what I'm talking about when I say I'm a pre-clinical medical researcher.
If anyone is interested, maybe I'll post more?
secretlibby
I worked in phase iii trials (humans, yo) with a coworker who left animal testing. She burst into tears when asked about her previous job.
Morigel
I worked on a rodent malaria model for my PhD. The day one made a little cry, stretched out, and died as I took a blood sample, I was done.
ExplosionSauce
Fellow preclinical researcher here. Preach.
eromitlab
PETA only gets pissed about animal testing because that means they don't get to kill them themselves. Keep up the good work!
momoneymopain
I highly enjoyed this post.
kittiesatthedisco
I use as many cruelty free products as I can. I understand (though do not like) the current necessity for medical animal testing though.
itsakidsbooksantiago
AccountCreatedToUpdogVotes
I wholeheartedly understand and agree with the need for animals for Medical testing. It's the cosmetic shit that pisses me off a bit.
Greenshep
I like the way you explain it.
IAmLrrrRulerOfThePlanetOmicronPerseiEight
Op has the best words
mydaddywasarattlesnake
I sympathize so much. I work at a vet clinic which to most people means I cuddle puppies all day instead of the reality that is euthanasia.
AliElkie
Did my work experience at at vets when I was 14. I think I cried almost every day. Changed my mind about becoming a vet
Haydanas
I thank you for having the nerve to do a difficult yet necessary job.
phigu
A few years ago, I learned the hard way that CO2 doesn't kill newborn pups... I still have nightmares of headless baby mice chasing after me
YodaPasties
I relate- just had to sacrifice 6 more mice today using LARC protocols- CO then breaking cervical spine- it's SO sad and I HATE doing it :/
Mynamewasstolen
More please, this is quite interesting in my opinion.
saucefordipping29
So how does a human become part of the thc studies
AccountCreatedToUpdogVotes
You can do at home self clinical trials in Colorado. The record keeping is pretty poor though.
dmoneyreno
Neat
The3DPrintingPolak
ALGERNON!
joecool12345
Thanks for doing the tough stuff so we can have better lives. And thanks for not being a heartless jerk.
itsybitsyspider
And so our animals can have better lives too! I'm sure some are for medical advancements for animals.
MedicMoth
I'd gladly kill a thousand more mice if it meant saving children from horrible, crippling diseases. Don't be ashamed of your line of work.
CilantroGirl
Please post more now OP. DO IT.
Zootsoot
Worked in research grants. The amount of safety and regulations for all animals above single cell for Universities, are mind boggling.
SnarkyScience
We go through rigorous ethical screening for all our studies, and the worst we do is give people surveys.
AliElkie
Had a talk from someone who worked in animal testing in college, he was pretty certain his mice were better cared for than most pet mice
saturos01
Right there with you, currently in grad school for biomedical research and our animals receive better healthcare than the grad students.
Patilistan
Its not healthcare, its not like the mice get taken to vets and medicated, bandaged then get sent back with a kiss on the forehead.
saturos01
We have vets on staff which check on animal welfare and treat them when appropriate. So in your condescension you were actually correct.
Patilistan
And how often does this happen? If it IS often, something's not quite right with the animal facility or the strain of mice.
swefur
Question about co2 euthanisation. Wouldn't an inert gas be better, as mammals react to high co2 concentrations? Or is that just humans?
IseeDeadOnions
This is actually a hot topic right now. CO2 is a relatively good compromise between pain and stress inflicted versus cost and user safety
TheAdventuresofStealy
I was wondering the same thing. CO2 is what causes the sensation of suffocation, not a lack of oxygen.
nenotlep
I was thinking the same thing. Mainly, I would prefer to be killed by nitrogen asphyx. Is it a cost effectiveness thing?
sylvethistle
I worked in an drug testing lab in the UK, we anaesthetised the mice then broke their necks when they were unconscious. We didn't use CO2!
ronin120
"The greater good…"
TheMeats
The greater good...
AccountCreatedToUpdogVotes
Fascist!
secretlibby
ArrogantFringe
What kind of studies do you do where the rabbit gets to go off site when it's done? Seems like bad bio containment to me. Great post +1
rg16
The OP said rabbits aren't used in disease/drug testing; letting them go isn't a problem because they haven't been exposed to anything.
abstractica
I wondered that too.
Jezebella
It's a necessary evil. Odds are if not for this a lot of those mice would have been fed to pet snakes anyway.
Patilistan
"evil". We eat chicken, pigs and cows by the thousands of kilos. Isn't slaughtering them 'evil'?
PaintedSlate
It's a beneficial evil, yeah, though the mice are specifically bred for this role.
Panzer89
Fed to snakes? Try, wouldn't exist period.
NerdN1
Well, other mice. I'm 90% sure they use different varieties of mice for snake food and science.
ITalkAboutGoats
eh, it's the same strands.
ITalkAboutGoats
I like to think of it as paying back for the millions of lives taken during the black plague...
Jezebella
This comment made me
Jezebella
snort
BrewBQ
Admit it, you work at NIHM.
saturos01
Or just about any drug company. I used to work for one and we had a huge biodome which was a sterile facility for our animals.
secretlibby
*NIMH
BrewBQ
Yep, you're correct. My bad.
Nick11235
YES I AM INTERESTED, +1 for sharing stories and not outright point whoring.
Porecomesis
Everybody who posts to this site point whores. Some are better at it than others.
Nick11235
Judging from my comment, I'd hazard that I'm not that bad at it
Porecomesis
I'm inclined to agree.
Nick11235
Also @OP "and if they are in to bad of shape, we euthanize them" Should be too.
throwawayscientist
damn it
otebear
Don't worry, you can edit the post! It'll be like the error never happened.
LilPuddinTator
*Damn it.
throwawayscientist
Balls.
LilPuddinTator
Deep?
MyNameIsJesusAndIStealHubcapsFromCars
Now. You're. Getting. It.
sunmartian
Animal testing for medical advancements I am for. Animal testing for cosmetics, hand soaps, shampoos, etc. is stupid and harmful.
totallyRebb
True. No creature should have to suffer and die for vanity and profit. But it happens. We still have a lot of growing up to do as a species.
AccountCreatedToUpdogVotes
Yes. This is what a job and signed consent is for.
TheAnswerWasAlwaysMoreLube
Adverse Health effects from cosmetics is real though.
abstractica
That's medical too though in a sense as some cosmetics and such can cause reaction/injury, which is why they test. I don't support it tho
sunmartian
Cosmetic companies shouldn't even be using harsh chemicals. Next time you're at a store look at the difference of ingredients in makeup 1
sunmartian
Between makeup products that test on animals and products with the bunny logo signifying they're cruelty free. 2
emuthegreen
Medical cosmetics maybe. Tar based shampoo, acetecylic acid face wash. Lucky number 5 rouge by I look like a who're Inc? No
10000Bees
Man, if wearing red lipstick was all it took to be a who're I would be rich by now.
emuthegreen
i didnt say you were a whore, i said it makes you LOOK like one.
10000Bees
Hey man, if I could have looked the part i woulda done it. Too ugly for that without the lipstick, though :(
secretlibby
There's no need to test pigment and talc as their properties are known. Anything with "active ingredients" still has to go through the FDA.
abstractica
Yeah those are good points. But, corporations and all. I agree they shouldn't be using harsh chems.
Havoc1151
I've finished a bachelor's of science and majored in neuroscience. I'm trying to find research work, any tips?
secretlibby
You could look for a corporate CRO (clinical research organization). Big Pharma is still chugging.
throwawayscientist
I actually started before graduation by befriending a professor, so I had it easy. Networking is important, look for professors you took
throwawayscientist
classes with and see if they're looking for help. when I did this I was financially stable enough to be able to volunteer for a while
throwawayscientist
That's how I did it at least. Best of luck to you, don't give up.
Havoc1151
Thanks!
grumpygir
What other animals, If any are used? Are bugs used?
telluricwaves
Actually, bugs (mainly Drosophila melanogaster) can be used in very specific experiment like in genetics. Fishzq or squidq can be used to.
telluricwaves
sorry for spelling dump :)
Mandaglorian
I worked in a facility with mice, rats, rabbits, sea urchins, pigs, and dogs (all from shelters). I lasted 3 months. It was heartbreaking.
ITalkAboutGoats
from shelters or dog compilers?
tentaclefriendly
yes, but it's like the windows/unix marketshare pie chart. Insects (whole or tissue culture) can be useful for research. eg: insecticides
saturos01
Bugs aren't too common because most of the biomedical research is focused on human health so we stick to mammals generally.
tentaclefriendly
To get into human trials, Need to show safety and efficacy in rodent and non-rodent species. Beagles and Mini-Pigs are two common ones used.
tentaclefriendly
I did pilot study work on mice and rats, helped co-workers do work with golden syrian hamsters (EVIL LITTLE FUCKS THEY ARE).
tentaclefriendly
we used rabbits for biodistribution (where the test stuff ended up in the body) too.
saturos01
From common to less common (roughly depending on field): mice, rats, rabbits, goats, ferrets, dwarf pigs, primates.
saturos01
Oh! I forgot the basic research animals like fruit flies, zebrafish, c. elegans, and some others, but those are uncommon in drug testing.
ITalkAboutGoats
I had no idea they used goats. What kind, boer?
AccountCreatedToUpdogVotes
Is goat use do to the similarities in vascular systems?
saturos01
The most common place I've seen them used is to produce antibodies since they are bigger than rabbits.
saturos01
Not sure what kind, I but they use goats for antibodies because they can get a lot more without drawing much blood compared to a rabbit.
ITalkAboutGoats
Probably not pygmy, then. They're barely bigger than rabbits.