It's insane to me people can't admit when they are wrong. At an early age I learned, and assume most learned that people make mistakes. We admit it. We learn, make amends if need be, and move on. How is pride so fragile in these people? It's no wonder why they aren't well educated. (Aside from the degradating system.) The first step to learning is to admit that we don't know. And we are constantly wrong along the way to learning. These people believe they know everything and are never wrong.
Being honest with yourself, about yourself can be brutal, depressing, and make you want to punch your own reflection at times. A very hard thing yo cope and live with at times.
Right wing media adopted the exact same tactics as cults do. It works to make its beliefs a part of someone's core sense of self.
Breaking that is world shattering, and life shattering and would also force them to have to acknowledge and accept they were used and manipulated blindly.
Identity protective cognition isn't limited to magats. People do it over all sorts of things. No one is immune. Nobody wants to question the ideas they hold about who they are. If you think it couldn't possibly be you, it's definitely you
So if Antifa did it, he's Antifa? Or he's not Antifa so he wasn't there but he was so it wasn't Antifa but it was Antifa according to him so he's Antifa but he's not so he wasn't there and... Can someone help an autistic person make sense of this? I'm honestly really struggling to understand this. Are our actions not our own any more?
Antifa lied and made up stories he believed and that's why he did what he did. Not dear leader riled him up, it was imposters. Human brains aren't logical. Whatever thought runs on repeat, best with some emotional load like hatred or fear, becomes "reality". Memories aren't solid and true, they're malleable.
You can't understand illogicality with logic. That way of thinking is not logic. And, what's worse, they're not trying to justify it in any way. So logic has nothing to cling to. Sorry.
Just a little example: I know a man who works for a firm that manages plants all around the world. He travels every month in different countries, european, south african, northern and southern america, asia, he took planes for half the world. And you know what? He's a flat-earther. He has *seen with his eyes* that earth is a globe, he knows all about time zones, and so on. BUT he's a flat earther anyway.
Yep. To accept blame would also be admitting they are wrong. And that wrong goes to their core because they have made their entire personality and belief system Trump and MAGA.
This, honestly, is just being human. Any rational person has a world built in their mind. You can see this backfire effect in an MRI in almost anybody, if you know what they believe, and -present information that contradicts it.
It activates the part of the brain that also responds to physically threatening attacks, as if the facts came at you with a knife. It can be the foundation for mental illness, though, or feed mental illness. But this effect alone is just the brain avoiding trauma.
I'm not saying it makes them good people. I'm just saying they're not bad BECAUSE their brain justifies their worldview. Even if your viewpoint is "orphans should not be abandoned to starve," you will have this same response if someone misused factual data to attack that premise.
"Thank you agent Fox Mulder, now please go back to the X-Files!" No for real, this is scary. Now how on earth do you peacefully convince a right-wing nutter about the actual situation?
If you're that disconnected from reality, you may think you're a freedom fighter fighting the fascists in govt, meanwhile you're really a drunk asshole beating up a 16-year-old in a Denny's parking lot at 1am. This disconnect makes them a danger to others, and they've already shown a propensity for violence. They didn't need pardons, they needed mental help, and if we aren't going to do that, they need a bullet to the brain because they are a danger to themselves and those around them.
The alternative simpler explanation is that he is lying. He knows what he did, he knows it wasn't antifa, his brain hasn't tricked him into believing it was antifa, he's just lying.
Identity protective cognition goes so far that when researchers poll people and then lie to them about the answers they've given – "Why did you choose this answer to that question? That doesn't seem in line with your overall political beliefs" – people start defending an answer they did not give and come up with all sorts of rationalizations. That's what our conscious brains have evolved to do,make up excuses for subconscious fuckups in order to maintain our sense of self + our social reputation
And since a lot of our behavior is controlled by subconscious brain functions, without the higher conscious brain having a veto right in the spur of the moment, we have to do this a LOT. Research suggests that all split-second decisions happen on autopilot.
I don't fucking care about their mental illness anymore. These people need to die. They are killing people and destroying society. All they are, are new Nazis.
Right-wing media mixed with a lack of critical thinking skills, and low self esteem, honesty..
Their media uses the exact same tactics as cults do..
It feeds them a narrative. It tells them they are smart and realize the truth about ___. It calls everything outside its circle of trust "fake news" and liars and then praises them for being smarter, an alpha and not a sheep like "them"..
Right talk Radio has done this for decades. This is the results.
Most likely because MAGA offered him something he felt was important to him, enough so for him to be active and join the community they built. At that point, the support he was getting from the people around him reinforced his idea of how important that thing was and that most good people supported it, because everyone in his peer group supported it. Because it had become so important to him, he started to build his identity around it. This happens all the time both benevolently and maliciously.
I love this. Angry Mayonnaise Noises! 🤣 It is so spot on. I bet if someone told them that trump invented mayo they'd truly believe it. Love Mayo, hate trump.
It’s not an American thing, it’s a cult thing. Looking at how far right wing political power has grown in the UK and elsewhere, I would argue it’s more widespread, but America is just the most acutely afflicted example.
minimum of 80 million. but there is also half of those who didnt vote. so... the majority. Technically, all of those who didn't vote, can be counted in.
The President of Peace renamed the Dept of Defense to the Dept of War. Dumb stuff like this has always been done. But what trump has shown is you can be so blatant and in-your-face about it and nobody will do anything as long as you have the right people protecting you.
"Prejudices are rarely overcome by argument; not being founded in reason they cannot be destroyed by logic" - Tryon Edwards. Seems to apply to almost anything not founded in reason not just prejudices.
You can never "logic" someone out of a position they did not "logic" thrmselves into. It's just that simple. All you can do as an amateur outsider with no cult-deprogramming expertise is distance yoursrlf for your own safety so you won't get any of the shit they fervently believe in on you. These psychological aspects of this cultism are also why mockery is so brutally effective - calling them "weird" removes both agency and legitimacy from their ideology and denies its seriousness.
It's pithy but bullshit. If I carelessly fall into a hole, I can use logic to figure the best way out. If I get into a passion driven argument, I can accept logic to understand that I'm mistaken and apologize. Logic can't get someone out of a position that they don't want it to.
There's people who don't doubt their every belief and neurotically go over every little decision & option & change their mind a few times until they figure things out?
Welcome to the realization that neurotypicals are the inferior ones with brains that can't function properly.
Step 2 is realizing that everything that is actually broken about us is do to the trauma from dealing with them and a society built around accommodating them, while treating us like our needs are our problem that they shouldn't have to hear about or deal with.
Step 3 is noticing the similarities that everyone that has ever advanced society possessed...
We are still a barbaric species, proof? We still start wars instead of resolving issues like adults, we are nothing more than spoiled children at our core, but the good news is that we can change that, it's simply a matter of will...
The only thing standing in our way, is ourselves...
I agree that the convention of fighting/starting wars are done by adults; but don't we teach our children to settle their disagreements with words, rather than fists?(Defence and protection are the sole reasons to ever fight, in my opinion.)
But what I'm addressing is the issue that adults are reverting to childlike behaviour of fighting, when words are far more effective. However, it is not lost on me that there will always be those who love conflict, as that's how they measure themselves. =>
<= Yes, I'm speaking ideologically and philosophising on the idea that humans have the ability to do anything we put our minds to, and this is the result? Endless wars and conflicts, all for the lust over avaricious ambitions, like a child that takes from others without considering the consequences. =>
<= With all the acquired knowledge, and resources to make life much more effortless to live out our days in true prosperity, not of wealth, but personal, and communal fulfilment. We elect our fuckin' leaders to squander it all, (Consistently.) just as a spoiled brat would do. =>
One solution or example, is that the public be allowed to ('Ala town hall) to physically attend the same lawmaking/policy changes and vote alongside our representatives. (Unless it's sensitive operational info) That way, there would definite full stop to any ambitions of grandeur. As no leader, nor politician should have that much power over the fuckin' people! =>
<= And instead of a two party system have our representatives literally *work* for our government as federal employees. As anyone knows, that the workplace is where all political stripes have to work together to get the job done, everyone has their part. Bonus points: No more tax paid salaries for them, they will have to earn it as the rest of us do. =>
<= That means, no ideological considerations in the workplace, just as one would expect; as ideology is a private/family/friends privilege that should not be allowed in the workplace. I am fully aware that this is indeed a pipe-dream, but I'm simply putting my ideas out there. that means I'm putting my ideas up to scrutiny. =>
<= It's far better to have them out there instead of the confines of my apt; much like a personal echo-chamber. I'd love to learn perspectives from actual Imgurian poli-psy majors/experts I suppose that's what I'm hoping for. Having said that, all perspective other than my own are valuable, but to have a working perspective from those living it, would really help my focus on the subject from a working standpoint.
YouRadicalizedMe
.
Svartsinn
I don't think we need to understand trump's insurrectionists anymore than we need to understand serial killers. Both should be in prison.
Recaffeinated
This is what actual Trump Derangement Syndrome is.
michaelfire
Or, just bad people. Dark Triad sociopathy- deceit, no shame or remorse, no conscience, no moral compass, no sense of right or wrong, no empathy- Steven Miller, Trump, Noem, Bannon, Zuckerberg- m/1462622/republicans-have-more-psychopathic-traits-than-democrats-according-to-a-psychologhttps://qz.com/1462622/republicans-have-more-psychopathic-traits-than-democrats-according-to-a-psychology-s">y-survey">https://qz.com/1462622/republicans-have-more-psychopathic-traits-than-democrats-according-to-a-psychology-survey https://www.salon.com/2021/05/18/why-the-republicans-big-lie-works-so-well-a-sociopathic-party-and-a-damaged-country/ racism, militarism, sexism, hate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad 1
bourbonandbaddecisions
It’s a fucking cult.
anarchoFeline
fucking Patrick Star levels of logical reasoning
NightOwlRally
Some of these specimens make Patrick look like goddamn Alan Turing
lildude52ca
weak and brainwashed with a touch of mental disorder.
HotSauceNCereal
It's insane to me people can't admit when they are wrong. At an early age I learned, and assume most learned that people make mistakes. We admit it. We learn, make amends if need be, and move on. How is pride so fragile in these people? It's no wonder why they aren't well educated. (Aside from the degradating system.) The first step to learning is to admit that we don't know. And we are constantly wrong along the way to learning. These people believe they know everything and are never wrong.
Selfinflictedwounds
Being honest with yourself, about yourself can be brutal, depressing, and make you want to punch your own reflection at times. A very hard thing yo cope and live with at times.
Right wing media adopted the exact same tactics as cults do. It works to make its beliefs a part of someone's core sense of self.
Breaking that is world shattering, and life shattering and would also force them to have to acknowledge and accept they were used and manipulated blindly.
dodgese
The worst subtitle format academy award winner
CheeseB0t
Identity protective cognition isn't limited to magats.
People do it over all sorts of things. No one is immune. Nobody wants to question the ideas they hold about who they are. If you think it couldn't possibly be you, it's definitely you
DickMcStiffens
It's not me it's ANTIFA
LordHosk
It happens on this webpage ALL THE TIME.
Canigetbannedagain2
This needs a part 2
UpvoteTotem
Well that's terrifying
... And explains a lot about current polling numbers
AllRepublicansArePedophiles
While I agree with everything he's saying, should clarify it's Jordan Klepper and Klepper is not a journalist he's a Daily Show correspondent.
RawSuger
jordan klepper is not a journalist, otherwise all true
MissMeaniePie
So if Antifa did it, he's Antifa? Or he's not Antifa so he wasn't there but he was so it wasn't Antifa but it was Antifa according to him so he's Antifa but he's not so he wasn't there and... Can someone help an autistic person make sense of this? I'm honestly really struggling to understand this. Are our actions not our own any more?
Selfinflictedwounds
It is a mixture of coping mechanism/ excuse.
The right-wing has truly become a cult. The beliefs have become a defining core of their sense of self..
Rather than face the fact that they are blind followers being used their brain automatically jumps to an excuse to save them from the reality of this.
spinymouse
Antifa lied and made up stories he believed and that's why he did what he did. Not dear leader riled him up, it was imposters. Human brains aren't logical. Whatever thought runs on repeat, best with some emotional load like hatred or fear, becomes "reality". Memories aren't solid and true, they're malleable.
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Double think.
PaperinoVB
You can't understand illogicality with logic. That way of thinking is not logic. And, what's worse, they're not trying to justify it in any way. So logic has nothing to cling to. Sorry.
PaperinoVB
Just a little example: I know a man who works for a firm that manages plants all around the world. He travels every month in different countries, european, south african, northern and southern america, asia, he took planes for half the world. And you know what? He's a flat-earther. He has *seen with his eyes* that earth is a globe, he knows all about time zones, and so on. BUT he's a flat earther anyway.
Bellerophone
Isn't this just good old cognitive dissonance?
KatLuvr54
So it IS mental illness.
YouRadicalizedMe
Correct
xj4low
Yep. To accept blame would also be admitting they are wrong. And that wrong goes to their core because they have made their entire personality and belief system Trump and MAGA.
BishlamekGurpgork
This, honestly, is just being human. Any rational person has a world built in their mind. You can see this backfire effect in an MRI in almost anybody, if you know what they believe, and -present information that contradicts it.
It activates the part of the brain that also responds to physically threatening attacks, as if the facts came at you with a knife. It can be the foundation for mental illness, though, or feed mental illness. But this effect alone is just the brain avoiding trauma.
whyisthisusernamealwaystaken
Those things are not human.
BishlamekGurpgork
I'm not saying it makes them good people. I'm just saying they're not bad BECAUSE their brain justifies their worldview. Even if your viewpoint is "orphans should not be abandoned to starve," you will have this same response if someone misused factual data to attack that premise.
Chilichunks
Jordan KLEPPER. First video I ever saw of his was Good Guy With A Gun and I knew I liked the fellow.
lordsupafly
"Thank you agent Fox Mulder, now please go back to the X-Files!" No for real, this is scary. Now how on earth do you peacefully convince a right-wing nutter about the actual situation?
ThrowAwayAcct0000
If you're that disconnected from reality, you may think you're a freedom fighter fighting the fascists in govt, meanwhile you're really a drunk asshole beating up a 16-year-old in a Denny's parking lot at 1am. This disconnect makes them a danger to others, and they've already shown a propensity for violence. They didn't need pardons, they needed mental help, and if we aren't going to do that, they need a bullet to the brain because they are a danger to themselves and those around them.
DYLANLEE79
The alternative simpler explanation is that he is lying. He knows what he did, he knows it wasn't antifa, his brain hasn't tricked him into believing it was antifa, he's just lying.
Futuron
So MAGA are stupid. We already knew that.
FiftyShadesOfCauliflower
Identity protective cognition goes so far that when researchers poll people and then lie to them about the answers they've given – "Why did you choose this answer to that question? That doesn't seem in line with your overall political beliefs" – people start defending an answer they did not give and come up with all sorts of rationalizations. That's what our conscious brains have evolved to do,make up excuses for subconscious fuckups in order to maintain our sense of self + our social reputation
FiftyShadesOfCauliflower
And since a lot of our behavior is controlled by subconscious brain functions, without the higher conscious brain having a veto right in the spur of the moment, we have to do this a LOT. Research suggests that all split-second decisions happen on autopilot.
notmyrealface
I don't fucking care about their mental illness anymore. These people need to die. They are killing people and destroying society. All they are, are new Nazis.
manystripes
They should continue that line of questioning. "When you participated were you a member of ANTIFA? Were you operating under orders from ANTIFA?"
thornedrose27
Fair enough. But what made this man accept the identity lie, while so many of us understood the lie and didn't identify with it?
turdferguson74
Because those of us that didn't do the horrible thing don't have the weight of doing the horrible thing on our concsience trying to resolve
Selfinflictedwounds
Right-wing media mixed with a lack of critical thinking skills, and low self esteem, honesty..
Their media uses the exact same tactics as cults do..
It feeds them a narrative. It tells them they are smart and realize the truth about ___. It calls everything outside its circle of trust "fake news" and liars and then praises them for being smarter, an alpha and not a sheep like "them"..
Right talk Radio has done this for decades. This is the results.
BoredLyron
Most likely because MAGA offered him something he felt was important to him, enough so for him to be active and join the community they built. At that point, the support he was getting from the people around him reinforced his idea of how important that thing was and that most good people supported it, because everyone in his peer group supported it. Because it had become so important to him, he started to build his identity around it.
This happens all the time both benevolently and maliciously.
SlavaUkrainisaysSteveBuscemi
creegro
HideousChild
Make America Gravy Again
laurapede83
I love this. Angry Mayonnaise Noises! 🤣 It is so spot on. I bet if someone told them that trump invented mayo they'd truly believe it. Love Mayo, hate trump.
IfYouBreathingYouAchieving
The master race
SlavaUkrainisaysSteveBuscemi
My race is mustard. Loud and proud. I love all sauces, but I do fear the aggressive nature of mayo.
rgraz65
Mine is Henry Bain's sauce mixed into marinara, with a fair amount of Piri Piri to really kick things off.
PerthAussieMike
And how many millions of voting Americans are like this?
Bobbutnotthatbob
It’s not an American thing, it’s a cult thing. Looking at how far right wing political power has grown in the UK and elsewhere, I would argue it’s more widespread, but America is just the most acutely afflicted example.
PaperinoVB
Many, too many. [BTW, I love the song: https://youtu.be/NWJnTFdzcpY ]
SergeyPrkl
minimum of 80 million. but there is also half of those who didnt vote. so... the majority. Technically, all of those who didn't vote, can be counted in.
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
He got 77 mil votes. The non-voters alone are around 80 mil. The two together are closer to 160 million.
ricpaul
Then you are close to 180 million... https://imgur.com/zlXomYo
SergeyPrkl
Wich is majority of the people. Majority of people are okay with this. This is why we can't see people doing anything meaningful against it.
bad1080
War Is Peace.
Freedom Is Slavery.
Ignorance Is Strength.
tinyfootprints
And Arbeit Macht Frei. Right. /s
sadurdaynight
The President of Peace renamed the Dept of Defense to the Dept of War. Dumb stuff like this has always been done. But what trump has shown is you can be so blatant and in-your-face about it and nobody will do anything as long as you have the right people protecting you.
iChase79
But what is water?
RyanSilver612
Water is wet
iChase79
From the stand point of water.
DarthWaiterSE
Water Is Ligma./s
ATastyCorpsesicle
Bout tree fiddy
circlebreaker
GOD DAMN LOCH NESS MONSTER
TheBunnyPants
It was then I realized that this ingsoc officer was 3 stories tall and from the Mesozoic era!
HeresYourSauce
Humans are not logical creatures.
I wish we were, but we're not. Be careful trying to convince people with logic, who didn't make up their mind because of the logic.
whyisthisusernamealwaystaken
Except fascists aren't people. The moment you drop empathy, you stop being a human being.
Sinus23
"Prejudices are rarely overcome by argument; not being founded in reason they cannot be destroyed by logic" - Tryon Edwards. Seems to apply to almost anything not founded in reason not just prejudices.
bad1080
humans: better at rationalizing a decision than making rational decisions
Rayfire3535
Hence why perfectly logical Vulcan character Spock was a foil to his human colleagues.
WebMaka
You can never "logic" someone out of a position they did not "logic" thrmselves into. It's just that simple. All you can do as an amateur outsider with no cult-deprogramming expertise is distance yoursrlf for your own safety so you won't get any of the shit they fervently believe in on you. These psychological aspects of this cultism are also why mockery is so brutally effective - calling them "weird" removes both agency and legitimacy from their ideology and denies its seriousness.
user06823947509
This.
Shaodyn
Logic can't get someone out of a position it didn't get them into.
fubizdaddie
It's pithy but bullshit. If I carelessly fall into a hole, I can use logic to figure the best way out. If I get into a passion driven argument, I can accept logic to understand that I'm mistaken and apologize. Logic can't get someone out of a position that they don't want it to.
Shaodyn
Let me rephrase that. Logic can't get someone out of a position that denial of logic got them into.
pandemicmodedad
As a human who only does logical things, I can't understand why people dont use logic and let their emotions take the wheel.
MADchemEE
There's people who don't doubt their every belief and neurotically go over every little decision & option & change their mind a few times until they figure things out?
Ooh, that would save me SOOO much stress.....
jasondeslin
Greetings fellow autistic.
Welcome to the realization that neurotypicals are the inferior ones with brains that can't function properly.
Step 2 is realizing that everything that is actually broken about us is do to the trauma from dealing with them and a society built around accommodating them, while treating us like our needs are our problem that they shouldn't have to hear about or deal with.
Step 3 is noticing the similarities that everyone that has ever advanced society possessed...
TZO2k15
We are still a barbaric species, proof? We still start wars instead of resolving issues like adults, we are nothing more than spoiled children at our core, but the good news is that we can change that, it's simply a matter of will...
The only thing standing in our way, is ourselves...
astrangehop
War throwing young people's lives at an issue to resolve problems, it's definitely something adults do.
TZO2k15
I agree that the convention of fighting/starting wars are done by adults; but don't we teach our children to settle their disagreements with words, rather than fists?(Defence and protection are the sole reasons to ever fight, in my opinion.)
But what I'm addressing is the issue that adults are reverting to childlike behaviour of fighting, when words are far more effective. However, it is not lost on me that there will always be those who love conflict, as that's how they measure themselves. =>
TZO2k15
<= Yes, I'm speaking ideologically and philosophising on the idea that humans have the ability to do anything we put our minds to, and this is the result? Endless wars and conflicts, all for the lust over avaricious ambitions, like a child that takes from others without considering the consequences. =>
TZO2k15
<= With all the acquired knowledge, and resources to make life much more effortless to live out our days in true prosperity, not of wealth, but personal, and communal fulfilment. We elect our fuckin' leaders to squander it all, (Consistently.) just as a spoiled brat would do. =>
TZO2k15
One solution or example, is that the public be allowed to ('Ala town hall) to physically attend the same lawmaking/policy changes and vote alongside our representatives. (Unless it's sensitive operational info) That way, there would definite full stop to any ambitions of grandeur. As no leader, nor politician should have that much power over the fuckin' people! =>
TZO2k15
<= And instead of a two party system have our representatives literally *work* for our government as federal employees. As anyone knows, that the workplace is where all political stripes have to work together to get the job done, everyone has their part. Bonus points: No more tax paid salaries for them, they will have to earn it as the rest of us do. =>
TZO2k15
<= That means, no ideological considerations in the workplace, just as one would expect; as ideology is a private/family/friends privilege that should not be allowed in the workplace. I am fully aware that this is indeed a pipe-dream, but I'm simply putting my ideas out there. that means I'm putting my ideas up to scrutiny. =>
TZO2k15
<= It's far better to have them out there instead of the confines of my apt; much like a personal echo-chamber. I'd love to learn perspectives from actual Imgurian poli-psy majors/experts I suppose that's what I'm hoping for. Having said that, all perspective other than my own are valuable, but to have a working perspective from those living it, would really help my focus on the subject from a working standpoint.