ZombieBorscht
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A medieval surgeon repaired this broken bone with riveted copper plate
An unknown man got his axe arm badly injured in a battle. His humerus was found at excavations of Varnhem monastery in 1928, and is the only one of its kind in Sweden.
Interventions in the upper arm are difficult to do even for today's experts. It's easy for nerves and blood vessels to be damaged. Yet a medieval "surgeon" has managed to cover the injury to the man's arm bone, and also pin it with rivets; you can see three of them in the plate. We can also see that the man survived: new bone has been formed after the procedure.
PlatonicOrgy
corbynDallas
Wolverine prototype
magila
The most impressive thing is this was done while the patient was awake.
batmanmf
That was one hard motherfucker.
rdh57451
First thing that popped into my head was max surgeon skill in Mount and Blade.
dontsayretarded0itsgay
Well never know if he paralysed the patient's arm
NineColonels100
I think copper is antiseptic also.
MrNightfish
"We have the technology, we can rebuild him!" "Do you want to get burned at the stake, Brother Ignacio? Because that's how you get burned.."
Dolenmorgul
wouldn't the copper poison the patient?
BigBeeOhBee
The doctor put it in the wrong place. You can clearly see that the bone is broke at the top.
cswancmu
Source http://historiska.se/kalendarium/2018/01/24/historiska-hojdare-24-31-07/, a seminar on Viking surgery, among other things
Roguepixel
Most metal thing I've seen today.
MerToo
most underrated comment I've seen all day
MementoNostri
1/2 I think if you cut someone open, do what you went in there to do, and they live to tell the tale
MementoNostri
2/2 we can drop the passive aggressive quotes around surgeon.
meshaal
I thought it was a horse dildo. :/
gendeates
gendeates
Looks painful.
HypocriticalBastard
I would love to see an article about this
stiltss
in the discussion section http://www.archeologiehuiszuidholland.nl/images/Intranet/Middeleeuwen/Kn%C3%BCsel_et_al._1995_knee_injurie.pdf
HypocriticalBastard
Thanks!
mariapia0815
Proof of time travel! B)
strangledbyaturtleneck
Sauce???
stiltss
towards the end of this http://www.archeologiehuiszuidholland.nl/images/Intranet/Middeleeuwen/Kn%C3%BCsel_et_al._1995_knee_injurie.pdf
strangledbyaturtleneck
Thanks!
FiftyShadesOfCauliflower
"I find this humerus." – Swedish archaeologist, probably
2BitRoach
I find that riveting
Jacob12jr
How do you wrap a piece of metal around a bone that’s still inside someone. Was it dug into the flesh behind the bone?
2444666668888888101010101010101010
Metal AF
wittie888
This post is just proof that even after you die people will still talk about you.
RiddlingVenus0
So is every history class in existence...
SourmanTheWise
No shit??????
enderite
I bet he didn’t find it very humerus.
piqablu
twofishtails
Well, ulna he would know, tibia honest with you.
PermenantlyBannedClubMember
That's copper, Jerry, copper!
That1OffendsMe2
good one
primarian
stiltss
From the Journal of Archaeological Science (1995) article by Knusel et al: "The most unusual of these comes from the Cistercian Abbey
stiltss
of Varnhem, Västergötland, Sweden, and was found about 1928 (Hallbäck, 1976–7). These twin copper-alloy plates were *internally* fixed
stiltss
through holes around a now disassociated left humerus that had been fractured through the deltoid tuberosity (a blade injury?)
stiltss
sometime during the period 1150 to 1527. The patient thus treated appears to have survived the surgery and the treatment for
stiltss
some time afterwards based upon the presence of remodelled bone around the plate"
caain
I had the modern surgical repair for this in 2016. Steel plate and 13 screws. Can't imagine it without anesthesia. Recovery was bad enough.
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caain
It wasn't cheap! Had to avoid booze for months. That sucked too.
basicwhitelich
Dude's immune system must have been scary as fuck to survive that surgery.
DarkAngelWarlord
the guy is a viking they practically look forward to death
DarkUranium
That's human immune system in general. It's supercharged, compared to most animals; it's a big part of why we live for so long and (1/?)
DarkUranium
... though I don't know that for a fact, I'd suspect it's also a big part of why we are so susceptible to autoimmune diseases. (2/2)
Owlberightback
It only has stop and full throttle. Which is also the reason people die from the flu.
Magpiebones
Isn't human immune system pretty average? Especially when we count out the effects of vaccines.
DarkUranium
Consider what happens when we get a cut or such. For an animal, it's deadly far more often than for us, even without medicine.
Magpiebones
Not to my experience.
ThePunishersVengefulBrother
No anesthesia. Keep that in mind.
judocop
#humanityfuckyeah
rainbowgravy
No antiseptics is what’s truly scary.
Kvothefefe
First thing I thought of. Fucking hell...
Urgalicity
Night shade is common in that part of the world, and we make atrophine from it.
MerToo
pretty sure atropine has no anaesthetic properties.
SwedishGuyYesIDoHaveLongBlondHairWhy
People in Sweden famously got high on amantias, so I think he was fine
Magpiebones
I don't think it numbed you at all? It was used for it's hallucinogenic properties. It also made you vomit like a geyser.
TrueDankMemeLord
The little Mario shrooms?
ImpizzahutwelcometoEvan
Reindeer piss
TrueDankMemeLord
Well I'll skip that step
Cutthroatlemur
Pretty sure they had alcohol, possibly opium as well. Still painful as hell tho.
IllegalBiceps
a hard punch in the face?
scnottaken
Ether? Not old enough?
Ginocide
Alcohol would make survival less likely, it's a vasodilator.
Magpiebones
Like they knew/cared back then. Washing hands before surgery was an outlandish idea, remember.
ensensu
Cocaine is a vasoconstrictor, but they didn't have that did they?
fathersisterberzerker
Is that what smart people say instead of "blood thinner"?
ThePunishersVengefulBrother
I believe it makes your blood vessels larger, as opposed to making your blood less clotty. IDK though.
Ginocide
Correct.
magicrhombus
Opium seems unlikely in Sweden. Probably just drunk as hell.
minipancho94
eh booze thins the blood, would make the operation harder as well as make it easier to bleed out. booze after the op for sure though.
clawthewolf
Well, trade was a thing. England bought rice from Spain that had been imported from the Middle East who got it from China
magicrhombus
"Medieval" is a bit early for the opium trade. Not saying it is impossible, but it wasn't happening in quantity.
clawthewolf
Mmh, considering Rome had plenty of Opium, but I dunno exactly where it came from, so it could be that those supplies dried out when R fell
ThePunishersVengefulBrother
Imagine the aching two days later. You would definitely need *something*
peanutsaredelicious
I think people were tougher back then.
BlunderbussVigilante
People were just people back then.
FettuccineAlfred
I mean you do what you have to do. If we had to suffer through that to live or to keep a limb, we would now too.
ThePunishersVengefulBrother
I think you had to be.
KoalaUprising
Comfort breeds weakness! This quote now makes perfect sense!
TheBlackVan
Bite stick
PmMeYourFavDinosaur
How do bite sticks work. Wouldn't that just break your teeth?
kuschelnom
No: wood is not as hard as bones. Leather would probably be better though.
TheBlackVan
netflixpilot
That's amazing but wouldn't the constant exposure to copper have killed him?
MechanusIncarnate
Heavy metal poisoning will take much longer to kill a man than Getting your arm chopped up in battle.
Barkinsons
It depends, copper usually oxidizes and leaves a protective layer, or it's not enough for acute poisoning
yankees27
Take that Brett Favre!
ZOMGNO
Copper poisoning is very slow, but could possibly have caused mild problems for him. Better than having major issues!
Cheomesh
Might not have. Even if it did, may not be intel they had at the time.
yaddiex3
Maybe it was a clinical trial
SanSamis
No, he became Copper-Fit®
KaJuN
You'll never catch me alive, copper!
quelin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity yes, it would have killed him, eventually.
eggmuffin
Only if it got into his blood.
Goglinko
a high school buddy of mine had a copper rod put i his back to correct for severe scoliosis. He now has great posture but cannot do sit-ups.
SputterSpark
Copper is not particularly toxic provided you don't get very large doses all at once, and I don't that plate would dissolve quickly enough
quelin
Copper does not easily leave the body. He probably got neat looking eyes, and then died. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity
Barkinsons
There are a lot of poisoning cases in sheep, but they get a copper salt, not elementary copper
[deleted]
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Barkinsons
I stand corrected
MerToo
Yeah it might form an oxidised layer that prevents further corrosion, like how aluminium does. Maybe. Hope so for that guy.
xizar
Hate to break it to you, but he died.
MerToo
most people do. Hate to break it to you, but he lived long enough for the bone to do healing, so clearly he made it out of the surgeon's hut
xizar
Right, but he's dead now. Where are you medical miracles now?
5P4C3M4N
Copper is anti bacterial
articsunrise
When exposed to sunlight
Caniac
Bleach cures Autism! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4767618/Mother-investigated-using-bleach-cure-son-s-autism.html
tinybartender
*anti-microbial
BananaBro
be that as it may I'm not sure a plate of slowly oxidizing metal inside of your flesh is healthy
dontsayretarded0itsgay
You choose amputation?
BananaBro
If it keeps me from getting gangrene and dying yes
TheVirusKnownAsVirus
This, my dad did a study at his hospital where they replaced all the touch surfaces with copper plating. The results are truly unbelievable!
wollawollawolla
Don't we have loads of kinda important bacteria in the body?
edalton454
Not in the blood/muscle, etc. Only the gut.
wollawollawolla
The gut requires a lot of blood though, surely the copper can cross over?
edalton454
Getting out of my depth here but the guy did live on.
getmo
Copper too? I thought it was silver that was anti bacterial
scnottaken
Oligodynamic effect
getmo
Bingo! TIL. Thank you sir. Now I know why it's called "silverware" and why doorknobs are brass. Here's to feeling like an idiot again!
Chaple
It's why it's used for plumbing.
ShockingPotato
Brass*
Contundo
Copper and bronze and brass alloy surfaces have 90-100% less bacteria than stainless, after only a few hours. Only stainless had MERSA.
ThatsMySecretCapImAlwaysHorny
Yet for some reason they put stainless steel door handles in hospitals and put the blame on visitors and make them use alcohol handwash
dreikommavierzehn
lots of reasons ... longevity and durability of the material, no allergic reactions, inert against almost all it comes into contact with >
Shohanna
I would have to carry gloves.. I am allergic to copper! lol
Contundo
That sucks, but it's sorta interesting to. It is bad? Do it hinder your everyday life?
lindsaver
MRSA*
theoldesttrickinthebook32
Yup, silver and copper are both anti bacterial.
ZombieBorscht
Not necessarily - bone growth indicates he survived the surgery for at least a couple months. Plus people get copper IUDs without trouble.
ZOMGNO
Copper IUDs use a couple of grams' worth of copper. I know, I have one in me, and one they took out and then gave me. Its a tiny coil. TINY
Spartan79
"at least a couple months"
Vexedi
The ripe old age of couple of months
CrystalCry
The ripe old age of 0.25 years
CrystalCry
What did you say? Copper IED?
DarkwingDuc
I know you’re joking, but copper EFP IEDs were armor-penetrating killers. Source: Army Engineer who did route clearance in Iraq.
CrystalCry
Also: fuck route clearing. Shit'll fuck you up in the head
CrystalCry
Yep, it's just a joke about how close IED is
Imsickagain
IUDs are not "without trouble" that shit is on par with whatever arm surgery this guy got.
whoopsywoo
It won't kill you but it will give you contractions similar to giving birth
ZOMGNO
No.... no thats not true. Source: I'm on my second and talk to plenty of woman about theirs. I had a baby. Copper IUDs are not comparable.
whoopsywoo
The same muscle contractions and source of pain. But on a whole different level.
Britzc96
Only for a certain amount of time and then your body stops fighting it (for most women)
mediumsizedtittycommittee
I don't think my body got that memo
AKittenPrincess
When I have to take a poop I get radiating pain that goes toward my Right lower quadrant of my abdomen . Feels like ovarian cyst pain.
highpieinthesky
Didn’t want the coil now I’m definitely not getting it hahaha that sounds actually horrendous
TheotherAgentJohnson
I think I would have preferred death over whatever that procedure must have felt like.
AJ2071
wooden mallet to the head would probably provide some short term pain relief....
IamaFuckingCoward
get to be destructive as fuck all my life, get fucked up. do painful thing or live boring peasant life... i
IamaFuckingCoward
will do the painful thing even it means i might die
rbudrick
Possibly already in a coma? Maybe tourniqueted to deaden all feeling?
Kalthramis
Could have given him a shitload of alcohol until he was unconcious, or close enough.
rossdaboss63
They probably suffocated him before.
andrefezzik
It felt funny.
UltraBooster
Probably feels like having your skin and tissue pulled off, followed by metal rivets pierced into your bone. Probably not very comfortable
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literallyacunninglinguist
Bait
Loominati
I honestly can't tell if this is a troll or not
NRGxRUSH
This was found 90 years ago, so that means this procedure most likely occurred long before that. Making it even more impressive.
Bobsnotmyaunty
Found 90 years ago, the operation was hundreds of years ago
NamesFor
Um, the bone was found 90 years ago
msmarymac
Pretty sure they found it in 1928 after excavating the site this guy was buried. Don’t think they did this procedure in 1928
PolarHailStorm
Ah yeah, skim-read it because I'm here for the pictures, yo! The images yesterday about "being wrong to get the right answer" on point tho!
EvilEmu
I remember that from yesterday. I’m on this site too often...
CrystalCry
Sex robots.
bigbosstussball
What abour 1928 says medieval to you?
notacobra
Ah yes, the good old 1920s, where knights rode on horseback and died of black death on their way back from WWI. Found 1928, but much older.
McNarth
mah dude. it was discovered 90 years ago. the procedure happened way before that
CreateYourOwnNormality
It wasn't too bad, he was a second in command of an army, working under General Anaesthesia...
40yoLesbian
i hate you
gilandune
Have an upvote and get out!
SpreadEagleSmeagol
AJ2071
I have your coat here..
HolyNightmare
Alcohol is the preferred method of anesthesia in ancient times...
Allhailmidgetgoat
Wouldn’t that cause one to bleed out?
HolyNightmare
That’s what cauterizing was for
Sayagain
How do you cauterize alcohol?
theoriginaljfizz
No. Shit.
MADFOX
Yes. Pee.
WeKillTheLaderlappen
Maybe. Bile?
septillion
Always. Blood.
IDontWatchDoctorWho
definitely. eye drops.
wittie888
He was probably really fucked up on something.
sexyGandalf12
Probably knocked out
Logan9Fingers
Swedish fishes :D !
ShouldersDeepInAHorse
Poppys and poisonous mushrooms.
Radix865
MUSHROOM MUSHROOM
yesyoucancancan
I hope so.
Flyith2
"he's probably gonna die anyway and I do have some spare copper sitting around that I've always wanted to do something with"
TheJDizzle
Hold my mead. Watch this.
mandadadada
Expert here :Pain tolerance goes up when you fight and sport. People we t thru flus and other painful illnesses w/o more than herbs (1/?)
Shohanna
Wonder if that explains my extreme pain tolerance. Long story but most doctor's don't believe me. /nod
mandadadada
I have the same problem because I have had dengue so many fucking times and they don't take me seriously when I say I'm hurting
Shohanna
Blot clot in kidney artery for 4 yrs. No one believed me until I was nearly dying from pancreatitis, they found it in one of the 6 CT scans.
mandadadada
I have practiced martial arts for a good part of my life and have been really Ill often also. It defo explain my tolerance. We r the same
mandadadada
To stay in battle you need a high pain tolerance, Western& norther swords were heavy, adrenaline numbs pain. Also amanitas muscaria blocks>>
mandadadada
Pain almost completely, and knocks you out, Northerners were known to consume mushrooms which can be sedating, then there's alcohol too. >
mandadadada
During those times they had to be creative. Knocking people out with alcohol, plants, mushrooms or a blow to the head in desperate times>>
Peachos
They had what was effectively crude heroin for thousands of years, ppl have always used poppy
Magpiebones
Depends how expensive it was and where you lived/did you need to trade it, did it exist in the area etc.
Peachos
The flower literally grows on 6/7 continents
Magpiebones
These days, but where was it endemic and when it spread? I don't know.
GeoTeacher
No, they haven't. You should read what it was like to go through breast cancer surgery in the Victorian era.
Peachos
I bet it sucked but morphine and opium were already around which is my entire point...
GeoTeacher
Pain medications and anesthetics are completely different things
JHord1985
Opium has been used medicinally since at least 3500 B.C., and Opium was regularly prescribed for Victorian era breast and cervical cancers.
GeoTeacher
That was applied post-surgery, not during surgery
GeoTeacher
http://www.drlindseyfitzharris.com/2014/07/16/the-horrors-of-pre-anaesthetic-surgery/
TheotherAgentJohnson
Well that’s something I can tell I don’t want to read.
Hutchy01
He was a viking, probably pissed on mead while "Doctor" Sven started hacking.
HadMeSomeChickens
Sven is a bard, not a doctor.
Hutchy01
He's a prick with a lute but somehow still less irritating than Faendal.
TrueDankMemeLord
Fun fact: Sven is one of the absolute worst, if not the worst, followers in the whole game.
HadMeSomeChickens
"Somehow". He's not a fucking bosmer
RadioTOKYO
Milk of the poppy. Saw it on a documentary with dragons and incest.
Kvothefefe
"with dragons and incest." +1 for your summary
YesThisIsPhteven
I saw that same documentary. I liked it
UddersofJustice
I thought it was called Milk of the Puppy. Now that you mention it, poppy sounds more reasonable
diddleysquin
You know thats just opium right?
wittie888
They had some great titties back then even though they were dirty AF. I wish I could get titties today :/ I should stop showering.
TheDeanofLean
anarkhiya
You can touch mine, they're only about Bs. And also male.
Kvothefefe
wittie888
Close enough.