moonpiehigh
143324
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https://ktar.com/story/5487088/arizona-revokes-water-permits-for-saudi-arabia-owned-alfalfa-farm/amp/
Apr 24, 2023 1:47 AM
moonpiehigh
143324
2425
25
https://ktar.com/story/5487088/arizona-revokes-water-permits-for-saudi-arabia-owned-alfalfa-farm/amp/
Kalmbach
People should read further into this. It's enjoyable to see conservatives finding out the hard way that lack of government regulation can actually be a bad thing.
GeofrontTmP
Major major major major
iJudgePeopleForALiving
Hehe written by Alex Weiner
Ploty
Leaders have ben asleep is a blatant lie. Leaders have been payef off to sell communiteit water
SankariSuomi
There is so much wrong with this scenario.
Macsmyboy
Australia and the cotton farms, pay attention to this, you should be next!
lioneye2400
Yes! YES YES YES!!!! Really. Study this. Using local water to grow feed for their cattle. Employ a couple hundred they would be employed by the same farm if they produce was local. This is OUR water. I know what that sounds like, but the next war/ world crisis will be about water, not fuel. We need to take a position now. I don’t feel like I’m a nationalist ( which this sounds like) but AZ ( and other states) are IN crisis right now!! Here we go!
zoeytg
Its just sad that it takes a crises like water supply shotagrs to end wealthy control of government.
HeHeHebieJeebies
Knock knock Nestle - you bitch.
ShhhBeQuite
TSMC needs water as well. They can recycle most water (nearly 90% IIRC) used to make chips, but they still need water. Don't know how the volume compared to the alfalfa farm though.
Bystandr
Better review that contract for any penalties for cancellation
HeywouldJablowme
I have a sneaking suspicion that this wasn't done for the right reasons, but rather for anti Muslim racism. It's Arizona, so just an educated guess. I hope I'm wrong
NVGoddesscottage
Smart move
ivymantled69
AUSTRALIA is one of the driest continents but we still grow water-sucking crops like cotton and rice. Back in 2005, rice was calculated to use 21,000 liters of water to produce 1kg of rice. In the same year, Coca-Cola was buying water at $2.40 per million liters, while citizens paid $960 per million liters.
LarryChupacabra
We grow a lot of water heavy crops in areas that lack water. We're kinda dumb as a species.
NoQuestionMarksInDeclarativeSentences
FUCK. YES. Now do Néstle
KevininPHX
Kris Mayes won her seat by 280 votes. I'm happy to say, mine was one of them. Voting matters.
KamikazeGerbil101
MadCat221
Huh. I just found out about this bullshittery today and it's undone today.
SilverNicktail
Weird how that happens when they stop electing Republicans.
sourpants17
AZ here, we've been calling this out for years. But because of the old administration nothing would ever be done. Hobbs is still green but at least we're moving in a better direction.
mithiwithi
A good start, but only a start. There's a lot of wasteful water use in Arizona yet to go, and I worry that this only got tackled because of the foreigner angle.
tmtowtdi
They're revoking the water permits?!?
llamasaylol
Damn, that was actually a very quick turn around (in the scheme of things). Well done Arizona, you have to give credit when people do things well. (Even if it was most likely just political)
peacefulwarlord
Now do nestle
raindownstarrynight
This is good news, but now prepare for the headlines of the people who made this decision suddenly dying in their sleep.
NoQuestionMarksInDeclarativeSentences
Dunno what moron downvoted you. Maybe cuz they killed Jamal Koshoggi (sp?) in broad daylight
raindownstarrynight
Unsure, I wasn’t trying to downplay the good news, it’s about time people in power did the right thing. But when wallets gets lighter, others will lash out.
ilikehornets
So the local government can arbitrarily screw over someone's farm by removing their water rights?
danimals847
Is that really your takeaway? "Won't somebody think of the poor farmers growing a water-intensive crop in a desert for a hostile foreign entity"
coyotedave74
A valid point, and this is why I think the owner of the water right can successfully appeal this decision. As unwise as it is to use scarce water to grow alfalfa in a desert for export, the water right was probably granted under state law for what the law considers a beneficial use - agriculture. So the AG probably scored political points but the courts will reverse it, IMHO. Unfortunate - as a nation, we need to rethink how we use and allocate water, esp. in the West.
SmokyDoggg
We’re gonna start seeing this more and more. We’ve allowed Saudi Arabia to get too big, they basically have infinity money, they’re getting their greedy claws on everything from WWE Wrestling to legendary gaming company SNK.
algoritham
Man, I remember this game. What was it called?
SmokyDoggg
Metal Slug by SNK, a company now owned by the Saudi Crown
NoQuestionMarksInDeclarativeSentences
WWE always sucked. Now, it will likely have fewer Hacksaw Jim Duggans & Stone Cold Steve Austins. Didn't know about SNK.
Akaszkronos
Only two new wells are not allowed, they still use the ones they already had access to.
Hal1918
Let them eat cactus instead?
We11thatwasC00L
Gotta start somewhere
Dooovde
Still, it's using HUGE amounts of water. Neighboring farmers' wells are bone dry! Why let a crop that's going over to Saudi to feed their cattle, crow such a resource hungry crop when your own farms are struggling?!
supervillainsevilmoustache
The farmers that have ready been pumping from that aquifer can still sell their alfalfa to anyone overseas they like. This doesn’t solve the problem.
littlecoatfatguy
STOP GROWING FLOOD CROPS IN THE FUCKING DESERT
MajorPoopyPants
why aren't they doing hydroponic ffs
koyote84
+ GOLF COURSES
YangKoete
Fuck golf courses in general! They go unused by most of the populace! Turn them into parks, housing or even reserves!
kaarbaakimgr
Boohoo—-there’s something I don’t like in the world…let’s get rid of it!
CuddleMonsterWithKnives
Won't someone please think of the rich people that need those acres of short grass and concrete?! They NEED to do a big putput :'(
CuddleMonsterWithKnives
..... /s
TheWarHymn
Alfalfa is a legume crop that originated from relatively arid area of South Asia (Iran - Turkey). It's definitely not a flood crop. These claims of it being a water intensive crop are misguided because they're only looking at TOTAL water consumption. But alfalfa is fast growing and is often harvested 4-6 times in a year. One acre of alfalfa can yield 4-10 tons of hay in a season. For a given amount of water consumed vs. nutrition yielded as feed - it's not much worst than wheat.
TheWarHymn
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=17721
NoQuestionMarksInDeclarativeSentences
Total water consumption is the problem. Thanks for nothing.
littlecoatfatguy
Total water consumption is literally the entire problem here.
Voodoohawk
How about the fact its all shipped to the Middle East, because they are banned from growing it there due to the water consumption
TheWarHymn
Yeah, that's a little ridiculous.
coyotedave74
True from an agronomic standpoint. But from an economic standpoint, most farmers will need 3 or more cuttings per year (where I live, semi-arid High Plains) to make a return on alfalfa. That can take 20 - 30 inches of water. By contrast, most wheat producers raise their crop without irrigation. From a hydrologic standpoint, total water consumption is what's drying up the Colorado River, and and the Ogallala Aquifer as well. It's exceeding the available supply and unsustainable.
YouWonTheGam3
I gib u a lil kiss
TheWarHymn
I agree it's unsustainable, but pretty much anything else grown would be too at this point. Blame the farmer, not the crop.
coyotedave74
Agreed. And the legal and economic framework that allows large-scale agriculture (that mines water) in a desert.
YouWonTheGam3
I gib u a lil kiss too
TheWarHymn
Thx.
ElbowDeepnInAElasmotherium
Can I get a kiss 2?
PhloydPhan
Why is anyone growing alfalfa in Arizona at all?
eggmuffin
To use up their water allocation. Seriously, that's the reason. They have to use all their allocated water, or they get less, so they plant the most water-intensive crop they have, simply to drain water.
Opining
Greed.
urboyevan2
Saudis bought land here to suck up our freedom water to send there expensive plants back to Saudi arabia
walnutbreath
Wait until you hear about how much cotton we grow in dry ass West Texas. We've created some really perverse incentives to overuse water and then leave them in place despite them being abused.
wagsd67512
It never runs out it falls from the sky after all, and a very large group of the population believes this.
GRZMNKY
14113
Cause alfalfa grows best in dry heat.
AsAHistorian
Why is anyone LIVING in Arizona??
somnif
I mean, folks have been living here for thousands of years, there's great land near the waterways. We've just... overwhelmed it a wee bit.
putcleverusernamehere
Cause with enough water hay grows fast. They were then shipping the alfalfa back to Saudi Arabia. Effectively we were exporting water. Sounds like these were new wells, so wonder how this affects current operations which have been going on for years
Ikwilstroopwaffels
Because, and this is important, the rich care only about this quarter's earnings. They do not care about ANYTHING else. The billionaire class would hunt us for sport if they could.
Degbis
I don't think they're openly malicious. Were just more on the order of bugs or rodents to them.. a few million dying in the name of some kind of advancement is acceptable.
N0tDave
Short version? It’s considered wasteful of water where they’re from, so the solution is to waste our resources on it instead.
geotard
Remember thought that Saudis will shred a journalist for the right reasons. GoP still has that hurdle to cover. Or is a badge/achievement?
TheJuiceLoosener
Because water rights are FUCKED. Take away ag and there's no more water supply issues for 100+ years. Your water bill is subsidizing billionaires.
NoQuestionMarksInDeclarativeSentences
Take away attorney general? Silver? What is "ag"?
TheJuiceLoosener
Agriculture. That's what uses water. In CA, ag uses 80% of the state's water and, lumped together with mining, generates <2% of the state's GDP. It's an absolutely atrocious ROI from a water perspective, it's basically fleecing the residents, and amazingly, people still talk of drought and blame other people (NorCal v LA) when it's not that at all. CA's 40M residents use 10% of the water, industrial/commercial is another 10%. Everything else is ag.
sadurdaynight
cheap land. can tap an aquifer, and get a special deal from money-grubbing politicians. growing alfalfa for booming beef market in saudi arabia. meanwhile, price of beef is sky-rocketing here in the states. b/c our politicians these days don't give a shit about us, only what they can make be letting other countries use our land. (EG: some toll roads are owned by foreign investors).
TheSlurmFactory
Basically to maintain their water rights. It's use it or lose system, which sounds like it should be good, but also greatly backfird because it encourages heavy water use
TheSlurmFactory
John Oliver did a good segment on it in LastWeekTonight https://youtu.be/jtxew5XUVbQ
fortheloveofgodacceptsomething
This was my question guy did research on ideal places to grow alfa alfa to export it back to Saudi Arabia, how did a state with am ongoing water crises win first choice award?
TrilithonStone
But why does Saudi Arabia need alfalfa?
NoQuestionMarksInDeclarativeSentences
It does the most local damage.
fortheloveofgodacceptsomething
But if the point is to export this product and not eco terrorism that would eventually be shut down, why here?! Makes no sense.
eggmuffin
Because export is *not* the goal. The Late show did a piece on Colorado river water rights, worth a watch.
alotofpot
Because rich people want to ride their horses around.
Idiopathic
meanwhile there is not one good reason to still be riding horses in well developed countries
NoQuestionMarksInDeclarativeSentences
Fun is a good reason. It doesn't apply here, but it exists.
Idiopathic
Fun > casual animal abuse?
doctorbocker
Oh, I saw this one before! Right before the The Irish Potato...something...
taurondir
"Fuck you its my water now LOL" seems the reason
taurondir
I think a lot of Crypto farms also tried to go where the electricity costs were cheap to set up massive warehouses of video cards, then the goverment caught on and put up the electricity prices up so it became un-profitable for the miners. Similar ideas.
300Hectares1TankofKerosene
They’re growing it to feed their goddamn race horses. Also, just a wild fucking guess, but the Republicans running that state have probably known and benefited from it.
HypersonicHero
Because if you don't use your water rights you lose them, permanently. So people are incentivized to use the MAXIMUM FUCKING AMOUNT OF WATER they can.
ertya17
So alfalfa grows until it blooms. It blooms only after the first freeze of the season. The first freeze in az is usually in December maybe in January. So alfalfa crops have a very high yield in Arizona.
alotofpot
Everyone loves that fifth cutting hay
tronicles
Exactly. It's a cover crop and a nitrogen fixer I believe. Grown everywhere in NV also. Even if it's used for horse or livestock feed it's not a bad thing
spiceass9000
A lot of farm food is grown there. No idea why
PerpetuityPhoto
Because the Saudi royal family wants as many Americans dead as possible.
WhythehelldidImakethisaccount
Not just the Saudis either.
PerpetuityPhoto
(Seriously, if it were just a question of water, the Saudis have MORE than enough money to build a ridiculous glut of desalinization plants. They could fill out their water needs easily. They Choose to harm others instead.
Sprezzaturca
Hay and forage farming. With irrigation, fertilizers and pesticides at our disposal, sunlight is the only uncontrollable factor in today's agriculture. And I understand Arizona has a lot of sun. That's until the water and petroleum runs out and/or pests evolve resistance, of course.
jesuswhyarenousernamesavailable
It's a conspiracy run by rabbits. They will grow the bunny crack wherever they can.
yourlocaleconomicsnerd
Lennie? is that you?
FetchMyBrownPants
I live in Phoenix, and the overwhelming majority of water use here is agriculture. A mile from my place is thousands of acres of cotton. Mesa used to be nothing but citrus orchards, and parts of it still are. It's absolutely ridiculous. Also what the hell, since when can we write 500-word comments?
chandon1
I think if we started accepting fruit and veggies as actually seasonal like they used to be then we'd use less water. Who TF needs peaches in Dec?
bladderinfection
Besides, peaches come in a can. They were put there by a man.
Iveframedmyself0
In the factory downtown
wadatahmydamie
It was an April Fool’s gag that ended up being super popular
FetchMyBrownPants
I can understand why. The 1/?....2/?....3/?.... thing is a bit fiddly. People often comment partway through.
FlyingButtPliers
Due to how water is supposed to be used, water is metered by the gallon for drinking, but by the acre for farming. So they abuse that pricing scheme and grow the most water intensive plants for a fixed rate.
TheWarHymn
Alfalfa is NOT water intensive... it's pretty average when it comes to water consumption to yield ratio.
qwertdeep
Yeah but the post is about Saudi Arabian farms, now it’s incredibly water intensive
bigbigbilly
That's what I thought. The mfers grow in semi deserts
matshelge
Average from what? Yeah, not sugar or rice, but twice of potato, way more than fruits. It's not a desert friendly plant.
TheWarHymn
It literally grows wild in the semi-desert areas of South Asia...
TheWarHymn
https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=17721
Syxcfaq
I think you may be missing the point here.
qwertdeep
The point being a Saudi Arabian company owns the farm, we can’t have foreigners owning things in the US. We already know the story of what happens when US companies own foreign farmland
urboyevan2
friend, it is ABSOLUTELY water intensive.
TheWarHymn
It's a fast growing forage that's usually harvested 4-6 times a year. It technically uses more water, but its also yielding more hay. You have to account for water consumed per yield. https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=17721
urboyevan2
Yeah well is it cheaper to grow and ship halfway across the world?
DocTanner
Why do you have to account for that? The water is the scarce resource, not the alfalfa.
HypersonicHero
But in terms of the local water supply no one cares about yield to water, it's water per acre and alfalfa uses a ton
1morebanforafreeshake
Saudi Arabia is going through a water shortage. Cuz duh. And water is heavily regulated. So, they came to grow it in america where capitalism means we’ll kill our parents and children for the right amount, so they could use up all the water in our states. Which btw, are also IN A WATER CRISIS.
buttondick
How much they paying to kill parents? I have a piece of shit dad and could use some money.
GravyEducation
Fuckin bogus crop shit. This has always been a thing, people do shady shit to grow stuff because, well, agriculture is kind of a fool proof way to make money. So why wouldn't you just cut a couple corners, maybe take some resources, fuck over a farmer...
reichstein
Being in a water crisis is a GOOD thing because it means the sale price of water goes up, which leads to PROFITS!! /s
1morebanforafreeshake
NoQuestionMarksInDeclarativeSentences
God I was waiting for that lil fella to get eaten. Damn porcupine/puffer fish.
Kehy
In Ellensburg, WA, much of the alfalfa grown is for export to 🇸🇦
Kehy
Saudi Arabia for their spoiled ass horses. The farmers there appreciate the money, and it's less of a water strain, but that's on the dry steppe side of WA, so there is water is still an issue
Isthe4thtimethecharm
Got to love that it is illegal to pull the ground water out and sell it overseas. But we will let it be used to produce vegetation and ship that overseas.
an0therthr0waway
They could buy a lot of desalinization equipment and start piping in from both the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf. did this just cost less?
CaldariBob
The amount of water required is immense. They basically destroyed their own aquifer in a couple decades using this irrigation method.
UpvoteTotem
It cost them less and cost Americans the option - so a double opportunity
Skywatcher16
most likely. its the saudis. aka rich bastards. if something dosnt make sense with them its probably a costs issue that we dont know about
BabyGraAvy
Yeah, Neil Degrass Tyson did a talk or I think podcast andwering this. He deacribed it as the cost on energy to desalinate is exponentially smaller than just buying someone elses land and taking their water.
st0rmcast
It costs lest to grow it here and ship it than to desalinate water for a crop that needs a lot of water to grow over there.
XXXSpork
I was surprised how relatively inexpensive it was. Smaller plants start around 32 million and less than $5 per 1000 gallons to produce.
wazscience
They do already do that, which begs the question of why that still means they need americas water. Oil is so cheap for them, they don't have to worry about how to power those plants. There's something going on we don't understand.
1morebanforafreeshake
I love your faith in me. I have no idea about complex geopolitical issues. I DO however know that desalinization is crazy expensive. I’d say these guys who wipe their asses with diamonds could afford it, but that’s not thinking like the ultra rich.
Elwendryll
I think the issue is that it's more expensive than just shipping water in containers on a boat...
Mooki
They didn't get rich by wiping their arses with their own diamonds. They got rich by leasing your diamonds, wiping their arses, and then selling you back those diamonds for a profit.
thetonestarr
You hit the nail on the head. Just because they can afford it doesn't mean they wouldn't rather find the cheapest method possible. In fact, the more they can afford, the more aggressively they're going to look for cheaper solutions. These people specifically got this rich *because* they don't give a fuck who they fuck over in their pursuit of profits.
sunyudai
For comparison, in California, freshwater costs roughly $2 per thousand gallons to get, and desalinated water costs roughly $2.50 for the same amount (2015 numbers, easiest to find). It's more expensive, but it's more like 25% more expensive, not outrageously expensive.
Idiopathic
lmao @ 'i love your faith in me'. you do realize this statement only grows the monster that is our faith in you right?
1morebanforafreeshake
This is a mistake Im hoping to capitalize on.
gypsyspot
lots of countries use desal. Especially countries in the middle east. none of this explains why they wanted to grow it in another desert though, my guess is that AZ was corrupt enough to allow it so that's where they went.
tinyfootprints
Desalinization in Saudi Arabia started in the 1940s, and has been ramping up slowly ever since. A lot of the clean water produced is used for agriculture. Idk why the Saudis have invested so much in the American southwest.
MushroomFiend
The problem is that the only country doing desalination at anywhere near that scale is Israel. So if you're opening a massive desalination plant, something nobody else relies on, you're going to ask Israel for help. Which is a bad look for Saudi Arabia.
an0therthr0waway
hmm.
ahb1020306
Da fuck? Desalination isn't difficult. It isn't some secret tech. It's just expensive. Why build expensive tech when American will screw over its citizens and sell you water for cheap? The Saudis are being smart. The problem is on our end .
CaptAlbertAlexander
In small scale it isn't difficult, at scale it is a pain in the ass tho.
SquirtleSquad420
Desalination is really expensive right now.
ArchMagos
It's also bad for the environment, because the salt that is extracted is pumped back into the ocean and kills basically everything on the ocean floor nearby
CycloneSP
why is it expensive? can they not just distill the sea water into clean water and sea salt and sell the salt to cover the costs?
Profanuum
It uses filters to press the water trough which has to be exchanged and the process costs alot of energy
RanOutofWit
To make it affordable you filter the water instead of evaporating it wholesale. That means you get fresh water and some extremely salty water, which you then have to dispose of responsibly (just putting it back in the ocean concentrated is a great way to kill fish). It is energy expensive even so. Science guys everywhere are working on making it cheaper, though, because we'll sure need it.