oseo
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The Las Vegas Shooter was using "bump stocks" to increase his rate of fire. They are replaceable stocks that greatly increase a semi-automatic's rate of fire with no permanent or mechanical modification. These items are currently LEGAL. The first step to avoiding another tragedy like this is to make them ILLEGAL. Please contact your Congressmen and urge that these items be outlawed.
For those arguing more armed citizens would have reduced the death toll, the United States already is the most armed nation in the world with 90 guns per 100 people. For comparison, 2nd place goes to Serbia with 58.21 guns per 100 people.
Furthermore, the general public has no need for assault rifles. There is no practical purpose for having them and they pose a significant public health risk.
00000042
you don't need a bump stock to bump fire a rifle
daniic233
This ain't borderlands, I don't just have a handy sniper rifle in my butthole that I can just pull out when I need it.
reyfufurulesall
You don't? Maybe you should. I do.
Sheldonian
The worst part of this, is that Genius Thomas carries a gun and probably has a lot of them
amomaxia
Or the confusion it would have caused law enforcement, probably resulting in more innocent lives lost.
Kiore
Yeah I read people were carrying there, but didn't draw to avoid being mistaken for the shooter(s).
amomaxia
And I applaud them for having that foresight and showing that respect to the responding officers.
GodEmperor0fMankind
Look I love guns. In going to the range on Thursday. But I wouldn't have even drawn my weapon in that situation. That's dumb.
[deleted]
[deleted]
GodEmperor0fMankind
Would have caused more harm than good. I damn well know I'm not a good enough shot to hit someone 32 stories up with a pistol.
Donkeymong
This entire event and the response to it are absolutely fucked.
Kiore
I read that there were people carrying there, who didn't want to draw because they didn't want the cops to think they were part of it?
HiddenSanity
And LvPD on the ground were unable to return fire because of high probability of collateral damage.
Skawomplious
And they were damned smart too. Drawing in the middle of that crowd could have gotten them ripped apart.
MrHailstone
Even the Band had guns. And even if they were able to. This dude had an Assault Rifle. There is no need for Assault Weapons in Private Life.
MrHailstone
I have no problem with pistols or rifles. But a fucking assualt rifle? why the hell do you need that?
Mylifeisawreck
The definition of assault rifle entails having select fire capabilities, which are already illegal without going through the ATF.
sexymeetzey
What is an assault rifle? The rifles in question are just regular semi autos, nothing special about them.
MrHailstone
Maybe im mistaken but i think i read something about AR-15? if thats the case its an Assault Rifle.
155DangerClose
my friend...you have fallen victim to the scary word the media made up to make certain rifles sound scary
Hecter94
You dun fucked up now, Thomas.
PelvicPulverizer
The man had a long time before he was caught. Bump stocks being illegal wouldn't have changed shit
ZachPutland
"Bump stocks are illegal" Paddock: http://www.wnd.com/files/2015/08/knox150814.jpg
Shoutrr
you're absolutly right, and preventing future buyers to get one is a communist concept
TheOnlyPtylerdactyl
Oh good, someone's here to tell us how heroic and badass he would have been, if only he and his trusty six shooter had been there.
Tikityler
I know this is unrealistic expectation but I present to you Jerry Miculek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ3XwizTqDw
readyforsleeps
The biggest roadblock to gun reform in this country is this "good guy with a gun could've saved the day" narrative.
mycatToastwasafatasshole
It's always the same "pride" narrative. Convince someone they're the best (with no evidence) and they're yours.
slacker4good
Most pistols carry 9-18 these days depending on if they're pocket or duty size.
CamelSpotter
slacker4good
Oh come on that was funny.
MajorPubes
Every. Damn. Time.
SnazzyLittleUpvoteWhore
It's high noon
Necromartian
up you go
UncleIrohnman
Murica at its finest
imGuybrushThreepwoodmightypirate
BayazTheBenevolent
That's really what it is, isn't it? Those people really think they'd be the hero to save the day.
minipancho94
as a gun lover learning to be an EMT, teach people CPR and basic EMS in fucking HS. god knows how many people would be saved nation wide.
mycatToastwasafatasshole
I was taught CPR in jr. high, but no follow up, just a couple hours teaching. I wouldn't be much help. ...I should find a CPR class near me.
SmolTenk
In germany you need first aid training to get a drivers license. might be an idea for the U.S. as well.
secretdpp
Should probably also include some gun safety classes as well. teach kids early their not toys, rather than trust the parents who lie to them
sayfcknwhat
Start with not giving kids and loonies access to AR's in the first place, then other kids wouldn't have to do CPR in a hail of bullets. J/s
SmolTenk
Shootings are not the only situation you need CPR in. Teaching the general populace basic first aid is a good idea.
nosyrosie
I agree that more shooting wouldn’t help. But personally, I just want to be able to protect myself and my loved ones.
RecurringNightmare
you are falling victim to the "counter force with force" fallacy, but it means you have a ~50% chance to be dead...thats just not smart...
YaBoyJohnorrhea
And you can. But the retard in post is suggesting lobbing pistol rounds 32 floors up and hundreds of yards away.
thecolonels
Move to canada, responsible gun laws make it so your family will be safer than a gun can make them!
sexymeetzey
Defintiely the gun laws and not having totally different soceio economic circumstances, just the gun stuff.
thecolonels
Well, thats the indicator. We dont have a stupid fuckin patriotic worship of guns glorifying their use against people.
sexymeetzey
Or a totally different population distribution. And demographics. And the war on drugs. And large porous borders. But what u said too, sure
DehydratedBoogers
"But how can I defend myself when billy decides he wants to shoot up the neighborhood?"
MisterLemons
People seem to be thoroughly convinced that the guns are the issue. If somebody wants to hurt a bunch of people, they'll find a way.
CyborgScribe
The flaw here is that guns are one of the best ways. Also, for some, not all, but some cases making it a little harder to get the weapon...
CyborgScribe
...might prevent the crisis by giving someone time to cool down. Probably won't stop mass shooters but could stop crimes of passion.
LittleKnownOne
Nice (in France) attack - a TRUCK - killed 86 and wounded 458 others. If someone wants to kill, they will. Similar numbers w/ zero guns.
zico19
1) yes and almost all countries that had vehicle attacks started implementing barricades either permanent or just for certain events.
zico19
2) to keep pedestrians safe. So i think a lot of non americans are wondering why after all these mass shooting, the US doesn't do more
MisterLemons
It's because they're a constitutional right and because deranged people will always find a new way to kill. The only difference is (1/2)
MisterLemons
that getting rid of guns entirely will leave law abiding citizens without them and crooks all the more powerful. (2/2)
otiumCatulli
80 died yes, that's the same as 1 DAY death toll by guns in the US.
LittleKnownOne
Fine, by same logic. More people die via cars each day than guns.
otiumCatulli
And obesity and smoking and suicide and so on. There's no cure-all, but small changes together can have a big impact.
tobyisagoodboy
That number is a bit exaggerated and includes death by cop.
tobyisagoodboy
Death by cop is more than half.
otiumCatulli
Why would I not include death by cop?
WilWheatonStoleMyButtplug
"The first step to avoiding another tragedy like this is to make them ILLEGAL." LOL. I just... *rubs eyes* LOL.
AceHomefoil
There's a difference between gun bans and gun regulations.
otiumCatulli
You do realise this only happens in America right? You guys are all habituated to it, you think it's normal and unpreventable.
155DangerClose
next step: put rivets in magazines so they have mag limit! Except it only takes 2 seconds with a drill to take it out. that will stop them!
DangerTrain
Yeah we should just continue to do nothing, every time something like this happens. Doing nothing will fix it.
Arkvoodle
90 guns for 100 people does not mean 9 out of 10 people own a gun or carry it with them at all times.
Bigdaddyclean
Plus most of those guns are owned by the same groups of people. I don't own a gun but my buddy owns like 20. Misleading statistic
DangerTrain
It's only misleading if you don't understand ratios. It clearly says "90 guns per 100 people", not "90% of people".
JeremyClarksonDidNothingWrong
More armed citizens =/= more people carrying guns at a concert. Firearms are prohibited and handguns would have been useless at 1/4 mile.
LittleKnownOne
But... what if they like, turned it sideways. I've heard that is a kill shot.
DreadPierateRoberts
Nah you got to flail it around to curve the bullet
dukenukemforpresident
Would be hilariously American right there.
eion85
TheOtherOneWithTheHair
Last Action Hero was pretty great
eion85
Highly underrated
v
Agent
Dog pyramid slays me every time.
TheOtherOneWithTheHair
"I SAID... I JUST KILLED A MAN AND I WANT TO CONFESS!" ... ... "ˢʰᵘᵗ ᵘᵖ ᵃˢˢʰᵒᶫᵉ!"
wecallthatcurbthewidowmaker
While we're at it we should make murder illegal. Then criminals won't be able to do it. Because they care what the law states.
Naotasama
Well said, it's amazing how much people weighing on shit they don't understand
Terminology
Criminal lawyer, criminologist and gun owner here. Yours is the dumbest argument in this entire debate.
Tylendal
This is such a stupid argument. Replace the word "guns" with "tanks". Suddenly you see how making things restricted helps.
Fenrir14
Tanks are 100% legal to purchase. All you need is a special license and to cement the barrel shut and have about 3 million dollars
Tylendal
So they're restricted.
Fenrir14
Technically yes. Museums can get away with not blocking barrels as far as I know
DangerTrain
Look, it's the dumbest argument a human being could make on the topic, presented without irony!
bigDONGkey
Actual logic that we see people use every time this happens. Making things illegal doesn't matter if you don't care about the law
MrHailstone
James Corden said it right. Why does every other developed nation has made it right? And it works. Its not like guns are illegal, they are
sexymeetzey
In germany the problem didnt exist, they banned guns, and now we pretend like the ban made the rate drop. Makes no sense.
MrHailstone
like i said, guns arent banned. i know a lot of gun owners.
sexymeetzey
Guns are de facto banned for civilian ownership, you can not get one for self defense. A right w/gov permission is not a right
MrHailstone
just harder to get. So mass shootings and gun related murder are not common at all. When somebody in germany gets shot it will be reported,
MrHailstone
nationwide. because its unconmon.
sexymeetzey
They havent made it right, they never had the problem to start. Gun murders have never been prevalent in other countries that are low now.
MrHailstone
so whats your solution then?
sexymeetzey
Enforce the laws we do have, fund the FBI to actually run down bad purchases, stop this worrying about gun cosmetics.
CyborgScribe
Are you arguing that murder should be legal because criminals don't care? Obviously criminals break laws. We still need them.
CyborgScribe
In part because without them we get more criminals. Stopping some is better than stopping none.
Ashontez
Making the bump stocks illegal wont do shit.
Bartholomeo
Agreed, make the bullets illegal. That would help. "Here, have all the guns you want..."
ohwhereohwhereismyhairbrush
So that the guy who has all the guns he wants can buy black market ammo? Underworld economies thrive on banned commodities.
Bartholomeo
Agreed, we should make guns illegal as well as the ammo.
Ashontez
Yeah, that's how we got people to stop drinking alcohol with prohibition
doggo
It'll stop your drunk Uncle Jesse from shooting up his neighbor Earl's Harley. Earl's always comin' home late at night and makin' a racket.
Ashontez
for those downvoting please explain why you think that would actually help.
onlyhalfghost
Because they don't know how guns work, or don't know how belts and thumbs work.
MycolTheFunguy
Or 3d printers work. Make them illegal and people will just print their own.
Ashontez
I own two 3D printers. Can confirm. But you dont need to 3D print the gun You can make them easily out of scrap metal, if you know what 2 do
MycolTheFunguy
I meant 3D print the bump fire stock (its literally a piece of plastic) but absolutely yes recievers can be printed or made from scrap.
Skawomplious
I'm not convinced they know how their shoelaces work.
whyexactly
Keeping them legal sure as fuck won't help either
TheNLK
thumb through trigger guard, through belt loop. pull gun forward with other hand. wow bumpfire.
whyexactly
If that worked as well why does anyone buy the parts?
TheNLK
less painful for the thumb. Also people will buy any horse shit.
whyexactly
Wouldn't less painful mean easier to do for longer?
humaneffigy
Way too many action movies.
Xplode441
Everyone was probably better off since he was using a bump fire stock. They're not made for accurate fire. He could have killed more people
OmenRider
you don't need accuracy when you're shooting at a massive crowd of people...
Xplode441
Considering muzzle rise exists, yes you do.
Xplode441
with accurate semi-automatic fire. Ask anyone who has taken weapons training in the military. FA is for suppression, not accuracy.
Itekisan
Yup, when I was in, we didn't have "burst" as a select fire option, it was safe, semi and auto. Still learned to fire "3 to 5 round burst"
LustrousShadow
I understand how accuracy scales with distance and all, but is the stock-thing a big difference considering he was firing into a crowd?
JustAnotherPOG
In the initial bursts, no. As people started scattering and finding cover, absolutely yes.
Xplode441
Many shots likely went in a safe(er) direction because he was bump firing. There's not much muzzle control with it, even with actual FA you
Xplode441
need to train to control it, and actual FA is more controllable.
ikots
He was firing blindly into a crowd from a great distance. Accuracy was not his goal. That's a stupid argument.
Xplode441
If you're less accurate, you're less likely to hit someone. Do you understand the logic there?
ikots
Yes. Still a stupid argument when you are firing a semi automatic into a crowd of 20 thousand from the 32nd floor. No aiming involved.
Xplode441
There's always aiming involved. Do you shoot guns?
ikots
2 years of military training. If you think you can aim from that distance in automatic mode, put the PS4 controller down.
monkaypants
You do know that you can bump fire without a bump stock... ffs im done trying to explain to people with no idea how things work. look it up
wierdmedicine
But why make it easier? sure you could use a rubber band or trouser loop but that can't be as effective/ practical for this kind of attack.
monkaypants
may not be as practical per se, just stating that bump fire in general is extremely ineffective for hitting a target or crowd at 1300ft
bigDONGkey
Yeah it's not even that hard to do without a bump stock.
TheNLK
easier to blame an object than blame the dark side of humanity that is created by the way we treat each other.
monkaypants
damn
rickim24
Learned how to do it long time ago with trouser blousers. Not hard at all.
EveryonesCousin
I hear you can use fertilizer and molasses to make a bomb. Better ban fertilizer and molasses.
TheBlueMuppet
I call it Fertilasses!
155DangerClose
nevermind the fact that bump firing is wholly inefficient
rolin
It's inefficient, but you don't need to be efficent to spray into a massive crowd.
monkaypants
but that's just the thing. it would be more efficient to fire semi auto at a crowd 1300ft away...
Skawomplious
They don't want to look it up, they want to be mad about TEH BIG SKARY GUNZ OMG.
otiumCatulli
well, guns are a BIT scary
monkaypants
so are vehicles before you learn about them and how to use them
ensignricky71
I'm all for concealed carry, carry most days myself but this situation was not one that could have been stopped by CCW holders.
otiumCatulli
why do you carry? I'm not from the US and have never seen a civilian carry a handgun.
ensignricky71
Thanks for asking. Sorry for the late reply, I'm at work now and I wanted to try give a considered answer to your question. 1/
ensignricky71
In short, the answer is personal defense, both of myself and my family, and others if the need to do so presents itself. 2/
ensignricky71
I understand that the likelihood of me having to use lethal force to defend myself is extremely remote, and personally hope I never end 3/
ensignricky71
in a situation where I have to make that choice. But the world is an unpredictable place, and not everybody in it has good intentions. .
ZachPutland
Maybe it could have, from one in the hotel. Because his room was located an hour before the police entered it at which point he shot himself
DreadPierateRoberts
Well in this situation you could probally smash down his door and not get in trouble.
TransmissionVector
He was firing for an hour?
armeggedonCounselor
Are you fucking kidding me? It was a country music crowd. I can guarantee you at least 30% of them were armed. And you know what? There's a
TheLastSouthernGentleman
I'd be willing to bet next to no one in that crowd was armed. Can't even bring a knife into events like that most the time
WhereDidILoseMyPants
This.
zee44
pretty sure it was all ages and walk-ins allowed
armeggedonCounselor
post out there from one of the musicians in attendance where he literally goes through why he didn't draw his weapon and fire back. It's
armeggedonCounselor
almost like this myth of the "heroic gunman" is 100% bullshit in a mass shooting situation.
Davros876
http://newsthump.com/2017/10/02/good-guy-with-a-gun-fails-to-prevent-2916th-successive-mass-shooting/
ToastyMozart
Not to mention they couldn't have done anything regardless. The shooter was WAY out of handgun range.
LittleKnownOne
Many of the shootings take place are Gun free zones. So chosen for that risk. This guy planned his high rise/multi-gun assault.
DukeDark
Uh, you can’t take guns into a concert grounds, idiot. There are metal detectors and rules
WhatTheFunkBro
im JUST saying, not trying to rile you up or anything, calm down
WhatTheFunkBro
but isnt the general reason for not banning guns is because criminals will still have them regardless?
MoistenedPenguin
That's a reason, not the main one.
wererat2000
You'd think there would be at least one example of super magic gun hero stopping evil baddy shoot shoot. It happens often enough.
armeggedonCounselor
There are limited examples of individuals reacting to robbers, or individual gunmen in a non-mass shooting scenario. That's it.
Itekisan
It happens quite often. The problem is that a "mass shooting" was defined as 4 or more victims, but return fire or defensive 1/
Itekisan
use of a weapon stops the threat before they hit that mark. I think that's why they used that number for their stats. 2/2
yourmomisminenow
not from 1500 feet with anything but a rifle I can tell you that much.
DreadPierateRoberts
Yep. And with how dude was shooting he only hit anything because there was so many people in a confined space
Surbies
Also how do you know who the fucking baddie is when multiple people are shooting.
WhoTheFuckisGavin
Dude we're not playing hardcore. There's no friendly fire. Right guys? Guys?
imanatheistdebateme
We get it, you have a low opinion of people. Go find out how often your nightmare scenario happens in states that carry.
Surbies
I teach hunter safety licensing classes. I sure do have a low opinion of people common sense gun safety knowledge.
imanatheistdebateme
Too bad your low opinion is not supported by facts. With the number of guns in the USA, the number of "accidental" shootings is minimal.
FreshPrinceofDenmark
Indeed. Cops would've just shown up and shot everyone.
Leeloothedog
Press Z
Mumalot
Badguys always have blackhats, goodguys have whitehats... Or redteam vs blueteam.... Or Pushtab to see who's on the enemy team.
ctennessen
Duh. The red dots on your hud map
Sm9yCg
Shoot everyone and let God[tm] sort em out?
Lambast
Everyone just keeps shooting until only one is left alive. The ultimate expression of the American dream! Hugh Ess Aye! Hugh Ess Aye!
ChickensAreGoodPets
Are they red on the map?
InFin0819
Eagle vision?
biscuitsngravybelly
Thier names usually appear red over thier heads
mericanidiocracy
Details
will242
Target acquisition before firing. and if 20 people around you are pointing their guns at one that is pointing back my guess is thats the one
ProgeriaProstitutes
Just turn off friendly fire
WizardOfNog
Yeah it would quickly turn into a war zone
OmenRider
This. In active shooter training, we were told to just lie low unless we got positive ID on the shooter. Too much crossfire otherwise.
vaktmastare
I said this exact same thing once about the batman movie shooting and got downvoted to hell and people saying it would have helped/
vaktmastare
/if more people had guns. Um sure everyone starts shooting blindly in a dark theatre. What could go wrong
Sumpte
1) Some people thought there were 2 shooters then. That's how confusing the situation was. If even one 'good guy' identified the correct
Sumpte
2) 'bad guy' and started shooting, any other bystander would easily mistake them for the 'bad guy'. It would be fucking ridiculous.
vaktmastare
Exactly.
rhubarbarian
Pretty sure the good guys shoot blue lasers and the bad guys shoot red lasers.
MediocreExtremist
in these situations the bad guys always miss and the good guys only need a single shot to hit and kill...
will242
but there were a bunch of people that died are you saying the shooter was the good guy?
gleely
accuracy by volume
LtColonelSmythe
The shooter was armed with high powered rifles. The armed concert goers would have had the same type of weapons to even come close 1/2
LtColonelSmythe
2/2 to stopping the sniper...if they could have determined which room he was in
LoudBirb
Even if they did, from 400 meters, several people taking potshots would have guaranteed other rooms getting hit, probably killing innocents.
LtColonelSmythe
I concur. A bunch amateurs with handguns would have increased the fatalities and wounded greatly.
Cheomesh
This. I had a dream once where I was carrying concealed, saw someone shooting, blew them away just to find out they werent the attacker...
Burke616
People forget the Cowboy Fantasy is a domino firing-squad waiting to happen.
waityoucansayANYTHINGontheinternet
...or how do you keep the cops from thinking your the one running around shooting into the crowd...
woodenbadger
Did you see the post from one of the band members? He said he and his crew all had guns but figured if any of them pulled them out the cops
woodenbadger
probably would have shot them.
governmentgavemeagun
Plus all the guns were in the tour bus.
gleely
tbh if more tour buses were armed like that, the Vegas Shooter probably wouldn't have hurt even half the people he killed and been taken dwn
Sm9yCg
Fun thought: The baddies are the ones with guns shooting others.
Sumpte
1) Here's another thought: guy walks into a bar and starts shooting. Guy sat at a table gets up and shoots back. Third guy, who was in the
Sumpte
2) restroom, comes out with his gun drawn; how can he identify which is the bad guy?
LitteralyHitler
Plot twist: bathroom guy was the bad guy all along.
Sm9yCg
So many fucktards here. Amazing.
shorey66
And more importantly.... how do the cops?
GetSmartBeEvil
This is such a simple point that it boggles my mind how some people overlook it.
imanatheistdebateme
Because it's not a point. In real life, that situation does not materialize. It's not armed citizens happened just yesterday.
Kyurias
Literally this. I mentioned something similar a while ago about an armed crazy guy. Response: ARM US ALL, PROBLEM SOLVED ...wtf?
Thatsagoodbid
Agreed. Amazing how plain logic carries the day.
maximuminnovationstevejobs
In my experience, people with this view seem to buy a few guns then think they're a fucking navy seal despite having 0 training
maximuminnovationstevejobs
They enjoy the fantasy of being a badass who would take down the shooter and save dozens of lives in a situation like this when in reality
maximuminnovationstevejobs
They would just add to the body count
mrread55
Just look for the red health bar above their head. This is common sense guys, come on.
mcpaddy23
Don't the baddies all have skulls on their hats?
[deleted]
[deleted]
mcpaddy23
UpvoteFairy3001
Nah the baddies names that show up red when you hover your crosshair over them.
koboshi
Maybe in the 90's
mcpaddy23
StopAskingMeForAnAccountImgurIWannaLurk
The baddies are red with red health bars. Sometimes they also wear red hats. These could also be your team so hope friendly fire is off.
Momi90
orangeisthenewbasic
Tiki torches
DeadUsiris
mcpaddy23
TheDashingRogue
Perfect on so many levels
Ryebread91
....That explains why my great grandfather never talked about his time in the concentration camps...
coyote907
Multiple people aren't shooting. You don't draw and fire unless you have a target. It doesn't play out like a movie. It's not the OK Corral.
Surbies
As a hunter safety instructor I have to say I don’t trust 80% of people that carry guns. I would not trust any of those people to have any
Surbies
Active shooter training. Or any training at all. In my state now anyone can call conceal a gun. It’s madness.
OsirisOsirisOsiris
Again man, the interpretation of what is a target... especially from someone who fears for their life.
coyote907
It's positive ID. Something LE and mil must have to engage a target. If you carry, you should have training in the concepts.
KalYahna
How many people who conceal carry actually have that training, though?
coyote907
It should be all of them. A person shouldn't drive a car without being taught how. Fortunately there are good classes out there.
Felman
Ok, you hear a gunshot, you look up, see a guy with a gun aiming. Is he the shooter, or another like you who also reacted?
lykwo
He would be obviously shooting into the crowd, soooo, obviously a bad guy..
coyote907
I see where this is going. Fact is there could be a situation where even if you do everything right, you can still get killed. 1/x
coyote907
I would even suggest that there were probably several people in that vicinity that had guns that chose not to make the situation worse. 5/5
coyote907
If you decide to concealed carry a gun, it comes with rules and restrictions you should have training in. Including only drawing 2/x
coyote907
I'm only suggesting that in general, people that carry don't draw handguns out willy-nilly, without knowing what's going on. 4/x
coyote907
and firing when you have positive ID on a 'target', have a clear shot in front of and behind, and feel comfortable taking it. 3/x
Felman
You have a second to decide if he's the shooter or not and, if he's not, he's doing the same with you.
coyote907
See I don't have a second though. If I haven't drawn, I look unarmed. If he aims at me, then he's no "good guy".
coyote907
When there's a shot, it's not like everyone with a gun immediately draws. They look around and figure out what the hell is going on
coyote907
You know, like everyone else.
ThatSquirrelInTheCorner
Wow that is a really great point and a good explanation
[deleted]
[deleted]
animjason
Shooting unarmed citizens = threat
animjason
Gun pointed at me while I'm unarmed = threat
animjason
Citizen with drawn firearm, unsure of target/threat = moron that will probably get shot
ZachPutland
Does anyone have actual statistics to support this point or is it just fearful conjecture
Qualtagh
I'm not sure there are any examples of private citizens trying to stop potential mass shootings using guns. We'd need that first...
ZachPutland
It has happened. But in those cases the firefight is resolved long before law enforcement arrives so this problem doesn't arise
FistfulOfAssholes
Because of this bullshit Rambo fantasy that sooooo many Americans carry around in their head of how they *think* it would go down.
Cheomesh
I have them - I keep it as fantasy, though. No illusions here.
StarrryNight
Funny how often reality crushes Americans delusions.
lykwo
Shut the hell up, it's to keep from getting mugged/ jumped. Or you could go out whimpering. Not for me.
FistfulOfAssholes
Found the Rambo.
lykwo
Self defense is a pretty basic human instinct, snowflake.
scnottaken
How must it be to go through life so scared?
lykwo
Prepared, not scared. Just because it hasn't happened to you..
Sumpte
Ok, but in your fantasy of being mugged, how much time do they give you to reach for your gun before you get shot or stabbed?
lykwo
I don't fantasize about being jumped, moron. It's happened, and when it happens to you, well, good luck!
lykwo
Situational awareness has kept me out of some situations, my 40 cal out of others.
maniacalmacaroni
I'm pretty sure there is like one documented instance in US history where a good guy with a gun did actually help the situation.
lykwo
There it is: the dumbest thing I'll read today..
maniacalmacaroni
Find me some data that says otherwise, and I'll retract my comment and admit that you're right. I was being hyperbolic but, factually,
maniacalmacaroni
"good" samaritans with guns almost never help in these situations. There are statistics, and they don't help your argument.
getthismanabeer
I hope this is sarcasm.
IProvideFakeContext
Yeah, but Im also sure theres one where they didnt.
maniacalmacaroni
Yeah, I think about 270 times in 2017 so far...
Itekisan
There are a ton of them: http://www.newsmax.com/FastFeatures/gun-save-lives-stories/2014/10/28/id/603652/ That's just one list
Itekisan
Also, google "defensive gun use"
maniacalmacaroni
Defensive gun use is a right and I understand that, but it only helps a single family, and often puts them in more danger.
CyborgScribe
Setting aside mass shooters for a moment. It looks like the number of lives saved by defensive gun use is eclipsed by the...
HungLikeHorseFly
You would be dead wrong about that, there are plenty of instances where a conceal carry person has saved lives or defused situations that..
maniacalmacaroni
Not so much dead wrong as off by a handful. There's a reason one has to go to Google to find an obscure case where this occurs.
davepermen
In all dangerous situations i was in (drug mafia, nazies, amok run), me pulling out a gun would have killed me. I'd be an immediate threat.
maximuminnovationstevejobs
Yes there are situations where they helped but many more where they didn't. We have to make our decisions on statistics not some anecdotes
maniacalmacaroni
The statistics are not in the "good guy's" favor in this case, unfortunately.
HungLikeHorseFly
Could of lead to deaths.
ratfaceddog
The phrase is "concealed carry," and the reality is usually far different.
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
The only ones I've heard of were off duty cops and military. Which only technically count as random civilians helping out.
AsABiologistWhoIsNotFunAtParties
And for every defensive shooting there are 20+ homicidal/suicidal shootings.
IronMarla
I actually have nightmares about hitting a bystander in a situation like that. It's a huge responsibility. People don't treat it that way.
IronMarla
I carry, and it's saved my ass once before, but I have zero Rambo fantasies and looots of training and practice.
ratfaceddog
You shouldn't be looting.
IronMarla
Hah!
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Can you teach the guys who think shooting at a target on a wooden fence in the suburb is a good idea a thing or two about gun safety?
IronMarla
I have, actually. They're lapsed now, but I held NRA instructor credentials for a number of years.
LtColonelSmythe
A lot of training is the key. Going out in the country, shooting cans and whatever moves is not training.
IronMarla
Well, I mean... it's a lot of fun, and it -is- building familiarity and confidence with the equipment! You have to like it to DO it.
ResilientPenguin
Even if you had a gun, you're facing a person ok with killing everyone around you, while you're trying to avoid the innocent bystanders.
IronMarla
True fact. Why would I have nightmares about it if it wasn't scary as -fuck-?