kakivara
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Russia is actually attempting to fight a real war using a tank fielded in 1961. Since the T-62 was developed, they have also developed the T-64, T-72, T-80, T-90, and T-14. And they're already down to using the T-62s with improvised missile "armor."
Ukraine isn't even using NATO tanks. Yet. If that happens then the Russian armor is going to become about as useful as a Hilux with an anti-aircraft gun mounted on the back.
Russia has lost no fewer than 1,280 tanks. That includes at least 17 T-62s.
Darth Putin remains a master strategist.
Source:
https://twitter.com/UAWeapons
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html
SecretAgentSuperBooger
SpaceHaggis
Stingers in Afghanistan. Javelins in ukraine. Russia never gets a break
Filanwizard
Ukraine got stingers too. Maybe explains lack of Russian helicopter missions
Myrealnameisunusual
Hmmm. How many of these will come back to haunt us?
barnwolf
Those missiles probably cost more than the T-62.
ThrowawayHalberd
It's not their tanks I'm worried about, it's their SRBMs and ICBMs, which are now being moved to the border.
kakivara
Maybe. If they want to give their T-62s a rest and bring in the oldest missiles I've ever seen, the variety would at least be interesting.
Auxilium
T-72 is technically a NATO tank if I'm jot mistaken since several countries are using it
kakivara
The T-72 was designed by the Soviets, which makes it the opposite of a NATO tank. NATO tanks include the US Abrams and DE Leopard.
Filanwizard
The Toyota won’t break down?
Broccoliman01
Eventually we'll see the captured Panzer Mk. III's the Germans lost in 1941.
NM156
Why not weld a box spring mattress on top, so that instead of blocking the missile, the missile is bounced back at the Ukrainians? -Acme
kakivara
Please don't post actionable intelligence online.
NM156
You think Wile E Coyote is our only client! -Acme
SalmonTheWise
Wile E Coyote is a certified genius compared to this guy
v
calamarionastick
improvised missile armour who knew that could mean fuzzy dice and a pine tree air freshener
svon1
Soviet tanks were designed to be 10% less effective but 50% cheaper than western tanks, the T-64 was even superior at the time ...in the 60s
roosengreen
kakivara
Arcanum3000
It's doubtful that Ukraine will be using NATO tanks any time soon. They require pretty insane amounts of logistical support.
Calicious
That's not a Hilux, it's a 70 series Land Cruiser.
jonklein611
Lol javelin goes zoom
Seanspeed
There's not a ton of big tank battles going on. Even older tanks can still be useful when up against pockets of infantry.
pandachariot
Yup, op premise is silly. No understanding of armour’s purpose and ignoring the fact most armour kills have been artillery and atgms.
pandachariot
Still a positive sign tho, as you said.
Seanspeed
Still a bad sign that they're having to trot these out at all, though.
XuncuTheTiger
Anyone else getting like... Mood whiplash from Putin and the russkis switching between *animated* Starscream/Megatron and
XuncuTheTiger
*comic* Starscream/Megatron?
MarioBoon
Hiluxes are indistructible though
bippityboppitybuttsex
Not really, you would fire a APFSDS at the tank and a HEAT at the technical...
ByThePowerOfSCIENCE
7.62 mm for the Hilux; even .50 is overkill
CarnivorousRabbit
Wouldn't matter, the T-62's armour is just steel. Rolled, homogenous steel.
Gryphonosiris
HEAT on a technical is over kill, just slam them with an HE round and watch the fireworks.
bippityboppitybuttsex
I want to see explosion-y thingies tho... we need cannister shot... or flechettes
Arcanum3000
Maxim 37: There is no "overkill." There is only "open fire" and "reload."
Gryphonosiris
Point, how about over penetration then? A HEAT would blow a hole out the other side, HE will leave a flaming crater and cook off the ammo.
Arcanum3000
Oh, overpenetration and collateral damage are definitely things.
QuartzPoker
You can fire HEAT at both.
bippityboppitybuttsex
You can. But the sabot seems cooler.
bippityboppitybuttsex
TBH, you can take out the technical with coax.
funnystoryaboutthat
Gunner! Co-ax! Truck!
bippityboppitybuttsex
With 2K rounds, ready to go... 20-30 round bursts kind of nuke the 'I'm up, he sees me, I'm down...'
DrDadJokes
Urktheturtle
and amazingly, only 7 whole russians have died in this war.
houpbajoup
How many little bitty pieces of Russians tho
Imgerruinedimger
To be fair, 20 of those Abrams just catastrophically failed on their own without enemy interference...
ZackWester
I mean any military operation at any size will see random stuff break down for no reason. (then comes the question on how large % that is).
kingbudo101
14 were damaged and 9 were destroyed. Of the ones destroy 7 were caused by friendly fire and 2 demolished by crew
spiceass9000
Ya, we’ve actually lost one from enemy fire. They get disabled to the point we destroy them though
ClusterConsultant
Doesn't sound very friendly me
BubblesTheFish
Friendly fire, isn't. -Call of Duty quote when you die sometimes
ProphetofEntropy
most people dont know what blue on blue means.
SirenBrick
Sadly the American air force thought because the Canadians have red on their flag it makes it blue on red fire.
Sixsystems
Rumored that they will mobilize T-34s via Lazerpig https://youtu.be/kT_ljkO3adY (comedy video)
lordofthegoats
lol funny video
Sixsystems
I lost it on the ad read alone.
saeheria
Time to bust out the T-34’s
SalmonTheWise
I'm rooting for KV-2 making a comeback.
TooBtwo
Never bring a tank to a guerrilla warfare. Russia would have been more devastating had they used technicals in the first place!
kakivara
I wouldn't categorize the Ukrainian military as guerrilla warriors. They're using plenty of armor themselves. Russian armor, even.
EmanNiemThcin
About NATO Tanks https://www-tagesschau-de.translate.goog/ausland/europa/panzer-eu-ukraine-101.html?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en
kakivara
Someone needs to step up and be the first to send tanks. Hopefully there's a wealthy, heavily-armed country politically-willing to do that.
kakivara
The unsaid part about donating tanks is that it would be seen as being unfair, because of how superior the tanks are. It's kind of funny.
TheCaptain00
"Hilux with an anti-aircraft gun mounted on the back." Dudes in pajamas stopped America with those.
kakivara
Stopped America from doing what?
TheCaptain00
Using a twenty year war to launder money. Last I checked America lost the war in terror in Afghanistan. The point was to remove the Taliban.
kakivara
America did remove the Taliban, within 2 months. We set up a government, trained the military and police, and left. That's not a US defeat.
kakivara
Last time I checked, anyway. That's an Afghan defeat.
Deathtospam
Kyiv Independent has Russia down for 2,449 tanks lost, as of October 06. Where are you getting your 1,280 figure from?
Deathtospam
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FeXbDopWAAQAa0j?format=png&name=medium
kakivara
The Oryx site I linked to. They document each vehicle loss with photo evidence, and that is their number. It is a minimum number, not lower.
kakivara
The real number is also certainly higher, but not lower.
kingbudo101
Those numbers are most likely inflated. Russian has visually confirmed to have lost 1292 tanks so far. The real number is between 1292-2449
kingbudo101
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html
Deathtospam
Great, tyvm!
magila
The T-62 is a better tank than the T72. No autoloader so fewer Jack in the box internal explosions.
kakivara
Every standard NATO 120mm tank round will defeat the T-62.
magila
There are no NATO tanks on the Ukraine battlefield.
kakivara
I know, that's the point. If NATO tanks DO show up on the battlefield, a T-62 isn't going to help Russia.
barnwolf
Even the HE ones?
kakivara
My list of standard ammo was incomplete, haha. I give HE and tracer rounds a 49% chance to defeat a T-62. So probably not.
kakivara
Keep in mind that an HE round still has a very high chance to cause a Russian crew to either surrender or retreat.
SalmonTheWise
Weren't British HESH rounds designed to kill crews of T-62s? The shockwave rips off pieces of armour inside, filling it with shrapnel.
kakivara
I'm going to go with my gut on this one and say that yeah, that's true.
MushroomFiend
The cope cages aren't missile armor. They're grenade armor for urban fighting. Russia learned some lessons from Chechnya, but obviously not
MushroomFiend
Enough lessons.
kakivara
https://www.technology.org/2022/05/31/the-truth-about-cope-cages-do-they-really-protect-against-anti-tank-attacks-video/
MushroomFiend
You might as well have just posted Red Effect's video, considering that article just reposts his video. But the cages first saw
MushroomFiend
Use in Syria as protection from small drones. Yes slat armor is a thing, but it wouldn't do much against a more dedicated ATGM system.
kakivara
That's correct, it doesn't. I think the point though is what the Russians intend the armor to do, and that the armor does not do that.
kakivara
I thought they were meant to defend against top-down ATGM attacks. They aren't really fighting in urban areas.
mindstorm8191
They WOULD fight in urban areas, despite tanks generally not faring well at all in urban areas
SirenBrick
They did, Ukrainian grandmas killed a few with molotovs and modified grenades with 3d printed tails.
MushroomFiend
Oh, and since I did a bit more digging, reports suggest the T-62s are being used defensively in hull down positions rather than on the attac
MushroomFiend
Oh, and the M60 is still in use with some countries (albeit heavily upgraded) despite being two years older than the T-62.
MushroomFiend
The M60 Sabra did actually perform better than Leopard 2 in Syria, but even I wouldn't count that as a legacy platform.
MushroomFiend
Russia knows how ATGMs work, including top attack. They know it wouldn't work against them. However, during the Chechen wars they had
MushroomFiend
Immense difficulty in urban areas. It was particularly easy for fighters to drop what would otherwise be in effective AT grenades and such
MushroomFiend
Directly on the tops of tanks. Two conclusions were drawn: there needs to be better dedicated anti-infantry vehicles (BMP-T) and tanks
kingbudo101
Iraq had T-72s in the Gulf War. They didnt do shit to the Abrams. Shots where bouncing off their armor. While I would love to see Ukraine
UserSubHunterOfIndeterminateGender
*T-72 export versions* which were significantly inferior to the Soviet built ones.
kingbudo101
were* fuck
thundercactus
*allegedly* at least some Iraqi's were firing training rounds. So the main problem is an abhorrent lack of training. Although, I'd like to..
Leonon
I kinda doubt the Russians are trained any better.
thundercactus
Day 244 of their 3 day invasion, and Russia is back to where they were on day 3. I think it goes without saying their training is abysmal
thundercactus
point out, in terms of AT systems; western missiles and defences are better. Russian defences won't stop western AT missiles...
thundercactus
And western defences (Trophy) HAVE taken down the latest Russian AT missiles, the Kornet
ThicclikePaulBunyan
73 easting was a one sided battle because the T72s lack of thermal sight and sub par targeting system, the T90 is still no match for the...
ThicclikePaulBunyan
Abrams because it's gun cannot fire accurately without putting itself within the M1A1 Killzone.
kakivara
The T-14 is a hell of a machine, though. All 10 of them.
ThicclikePaulBunyan
If, i said IF they managed to run long enough to get out of the parking lot.
DatDarthCaedus
An LPR soldier in Lyman uploaded a video a bit before it was retaken.. complained his bullets wouldn't even go through Ukrainian body armor.
heisman86
Seems like there’s a shitty reason for him to be aware of this.
DatDarthCaedus
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1576546250304139267
kakivara
Well at least they have this awesome helmet: https://twitter.com/AnonOpsSE/status/1578016055842127873
SirenBrick
Holy lee, that is some cheap ass garbage they are using.
brianingram
jfc
kingbudo101
with a few hundred of them, there could be operational limitations with the Abrams as they way a fuck ton
Quixus
Yeah Rheinmetall would love to sell them some better suited Leos, but unfortunately our government does not seem to want to authorize it.
kingbudo101
weigh* Fuck me I need to stop trying to type so late at night
INeverWaitForIt
I remember a few years ago reading that the Ukranian homebuilt tanks were similar in performance to the T80's. They did have a better tank
INeverWaitForIt
that they primarily used as exports because selling one of those would allow them to build 5 of their homegrown tanks.
tiderfish
I had both of those transformers! The green one pictured was ‘warpath’ and was red for some reason
kickedoutofthehole
I believe the latest version is up to a fuck and a half tons
Deathtospam
How many kilofucks is that?
dudehiemer
Iraq mostly had T-60 family tanks. The M1-ip & M1-heavies used in the Gulf War had armor that could defeat the soviet tungsten sabots.
knotydes
Did iraq even get sabot? Aka the good stuff. I know that iraq had lots on heat. Which the M1 had no issues stopping
dudehiemer
There were reports of them being used.
kingbudo101
Which mix with Ukraine's terrain and bridges, idk how well they would do. Also army of mechanics you will need to train to keep them
redpandabanana
Well right now it’s the rainy season. This past week a swift advance was halted due to rain because the tanks could only use the roads
redpandabanana
And the Ukrainians were not about to risk being as stupid as the Russians at the start of the war
bridgebrain
Yeah, tanks are essentially squishy DND wizards. Excellent support for about 3 shots, have to be constantly healed, and useless up close
kingbudo101
operational as well as the logistical issues of getting parts and supplies as compared to soviet tanks, a lot of that stuff was standardized
kingbudo101
across the generations
TrippyTurtle69
The Abrams was designed to fight a land war in Europe. It's sole purpose was to crush the red army. It will excel in that environment.
kakivara
Look at the damage that 9 Abrams and 13 Bradleys can do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72XLTfmcaAw
DespiseEveryone
Didn't a Hilux with an anti-aircraft gun drive the US with its Abrams out of Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Somalia?
kakivara
Great question! No. If you have any other questions, no matter how stupid, just shout them out!
DespiseEveryone
Why did the US go into Afghanistan other then to kill brown people?
UnattendedDeviant
I'm brown I think you're clueless about the reasons for Afghanistan. There was alot of easier "brown people" targets than Afghanistan.
kakivara
To kill Osama bin Laden and topple those protecting him. Any other super-intelligent questions?
DespiseEveryone
Osama was in Pakistan, has Pakistan government been toppled? Has the taliban been toppled?
kakivara
Osama was in Pakistan in 2001? No, he wasn't, he was in Afghanistan, under the protection of the Taliban. Are you really that ignorant of