I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between the modern institution of employment and being a fully realized member of a prosperous society.
The rich are often the kind of people that only do good when it benefits them and they project that onto the rest of humanity. It is hard to get rich while being the kind of person who volunteers, hangs out with neighbors, or tries to make society better.
And actual research shows that a 'naive' society that allows some assholes to game the system does better than one where people think the worst of each other and are obsessed with ensuring no one can game the system. If you assume everyone else is an asshole you're more likely to be one yourself. "Everyone else is doing it!"
My favorite (though probably useless) argument supporting UBI when dealing with anti-social types:
You're at work, trying to do your job because you like your job; but there's Bob. Bob hates your job and is there solely to make enough so he has a place to live. He will quit when he's needed. He will be lazy when you try to get him to help you. Bob sucks. Everyone knows a Bob. How many pennies per hour would you be willing to pay to not have a Bob in your life?
Anti-socialist behavior stems from outdated beliefs that you either have America's success or the Soviet Union's failure. The idea that basic safety doesn't mean complete redistribution is foreign to people and the concept of a basic safety net only matters as so much as: what do I get out of it?
And to all the capitalists out there: solely when the pain is the only thing left and you took everything from the people, solely in that moment the people get unexpected strength and power to kill you all and push back into your bleeding throat your poisonous pride.
Having a home, health care, and a guaranteed livable income, would raise productivity. As it is, no one wants to be forced to work for starvation wages. We need good addiction treatment. Some would get addictions, but that's on them.
Anti socialist rhetoric boils down to over a century of propaganda put out by rich people to convince you that capitalism is great and you should give more money to rich people. Americans in particular are the most heavily propagandized people in history
The people most inclined to abuse any advantage are at the extremes of society. Billionaires and their insatiable greed at one end, and those working 3 jobs and still living paycheck to paycheck while still being occasionally homeless on the other end. It's easiest to be egalitarian as the middle class. The top end needs to be taxed for resources, and the bottom end needs time and leeway to overcome generational trauma.
That is part of it! Time periods famous for cultural revolutions and historical art pieces were at times when living easy easy, due to new inventions, or other reasons. This tells us that the default for humans is to create. Instead we are forced into recovery mode CONSTANTLY to the point that if we have energy, its spend playing catchup. There is no surplus, but surplus is needed to create.
A health care infrastructure based on preventative care would absolutely be into low stress environments. Our for profit system however wants sick people
This is an extremely shallow political analysis. All forms of government are authoritarian to a degree. Capitalism can never be entirely democratic because if the workers had a say in how the economy was run, it'd be socialism. But limiting the power of the corporations, they all that authoritarian. These terms can not be easily separated, they only exist relative to their political context.
And the main reason I dislike this sort of analysis that tries to completely separate "authoritarianism" from the economy is that it obscures the authoritarianism inherent in capitalism and implies we can have a "democratic capitalism" that works for everyone just as much as a "democratic socialism", when that is fundamentally incompatible with the nature of capitalism.
I.e. it is fundamentally a wishy-washy neoliberal stance that holds that capitalism should be reformed, rather than abolished, and that socialism vs. capitalism just boils down to, what? A simple preference? An economic abstraction?
We wouldn’t have the internet like we currently do if Bill Gates had come from a middle or lower income family and had to earn his money the way everyone else did to make his project a reality. Maybe think about that and how much other awesome shit we are missing out on because you want others to suffer
Bill Gates stole most of his 'innovations' from other people. Things would be be mostly the same without Bill Gates, probably better. He's completely replaceable. Nobody needs rich people to do things.
Everyone is lazy when held to the standards of capitalism, which views us as machines of flesh and bone that should be put to work every waking hour, pausing only for necessary maintenance.
DJOldguy
Lot of people are anti-socialist because they don't understand just how indoctrnated they really are.
mksu
I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between the modern institution of employment and being a fully realized member of a prosperous society.
ThatGuyFromJustSouthOfTheMiddleOfNowhere
zechor
The rich are often the kind of people that only do good when it benefits them and they project that onto the rest of humanity. It is hard to get rich while being the kind of person who volunteers, hangs out with neighbors, or tries to make society better.
MrsHowVeryDareYou
It’s the same projecting logic as “if you don’t believe in heaven, why be a good person?”
ShimmerinStrider
You can't save another, if you are actively dying. This meme has that down pat
dixxienormus
They pretend to pay me, so I pretend to work.
androgenoide
pullingsixty
I'd be a lot less salty for one thing.
L00kinSpiffy
Real
Skuggen
And actual research shows that a 'naive' society that allows some assholes to game the system does better than one where people think the worst of each other and are obsessed with ensuring no one can game the system. If you assume everyone else is an asshole you're more likely to be one yourself. "Everyone else is doing it!"
WelcometoDillDell
Exactly. The data proves it's better to err towards charitable than towards strict.
DVSBSTrD
Ironic that the people who claim to be anti-socialist are always the first crying for a government bailout when they fuck themselves over.
FinancialRavioli
I would be so god damn creative if I didn't have to burn my energy in an office 40 hrs a week... jfc it makes me angry to think about.
Donfolstar
Which is exactly why we are kept broke and barely holding on. The system sucks by design.
Tengenstein
I dunno. Like I don't want people to suffer, but people who have all their needs met and don't have to worry about money seem to be assholes.
freshthrowaway1138
My favorite (though probably useless) argument supporting UBI when dealing with anti-social types:
You're at work, trying to do your job because you like your job; but there's Bob. Bob hates your job and is there solely to make enough so he has a place to live. He will quit when he's needed. He will be lazy when you try to get him to help you. Bob sucks. Everyone knows a Bob. How many pennies per hour would you be willing to pay to not have a Bob in your life?
RatsLiveOnNoEvilStar
It’s basic Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs.
But the best way to control a population is to keep them on that bottom level just trying to survive.
Servo87
Anti-socialist behavior stems from outdated beliefs that you either have America's success or the Soviet Union's failure. The idea that basic safety doesn't mean complete redistribution is foreign to people and the concept of a basic safety net only matters as so much as: what do I get out of it?
lonelyrangerofthedreams
And to all the capitalists out there: solely when the pain is the only thing left and you took everything from the people, solely in that moment the people get unexpected strength and power to kill you all and push back into your bleeding throat your poisonous pride.
urusername2
Having a home, health care, and a guaranteed livable income, would raise productivity. As it is, no one wants to be forced to work for starvation wages. We need good addiction treatment. Some would get addictions, but that's on them.
WaxedApple
Anti socialist rhetoric boils down to over a century of propaganda put out by rich people to convince you that capitalism is great and you should give more money to rich people. Americans in particular are the most heavily propagandized people in history
FartsSmellBad
The real argument is that people with anti-socialist viewpoints won't enjoy life unless there are people who are suffering
LazerSpacePirate
That part! Malignant narcissists have been catered to for far too long
Kyzyl
Not just people. They like to see cruelty happen to other living things too.
ATLandNerdy
The people most inclined to abuse any advantage are at the extremes of society. Billionaires and their insatiable greed at one end, and those working 3 jobs and still living paycheck to paycheck while still being occasionally homeless on the other end. It's easiest to be egalitarian as the middle class. The top end needs to be taxed for resources, and the bottom end needs time and leeway to overcome generational trauma.
seenunseen
I think most people will do normal mundane things with their lives either way
Sorrontis
I'd be more productive if Iwas n't burnt out
jammer909
I'd've been writing, but instead I work 2 jobs.
Helixninja333
Personally, I've been fighting against their language: I'm not burnt out, I was exploited.
Sorrontis
fiar
NairouTryyshokk
That is part of it! Time periods famous for cultural revolutions and historical art pieces were at times when living easy easy, due to new inventions, or other reasons. This tells us that the default for humans is to create. Instead we are forced into recovery mode CONSTANTLY to the point that if we have energy, its spend playing catchup. There is no surplus, but surplus is needed to create.
lurkerthatoccationallywantstocomment
A health care infrastructure based on preventative care would absolutely be into low stress environments. Our for profit system however wants sick people
L00kinSpiffy
This is a real money hungry corporations and pedophile politicians moment
ThatGuyFromJustSouthOfTheMiddleOfNowhere
Allrighty
This is an extremely shallow political analysis. All forms of government are authoritarian to a degree. Capitalism can never be entirely democratic because if the workers had a say in how the economy was run, it'd be socialism. But limiting the power of the corporations, they all that authoritarian. These terms can not be easily separated, they only exist relative to their political context.
Allrighty
And the main reason I dislike this sort of analysis that tries to completely separate "authoritarianism" from the economy is that it obscures the authoritarianism inherent in capitalism and implies we can have a "democratic capitalism" that works for everyone just as much as a "democratic socialism", when that is fundamentally incompatible with the nature of capitalism.
Allrighty
I.e. it is fundamentally a wishy-washy neoliberal stance that holds that capitalism should be reformed, rather than abolished, and that socialism vs. capitalism just boils down to, what? A simple preference? An economic abstraction?
meganical
We wouldn’t have the internet like we currently do if Bill Gates had come from a middle or lower income family and had to earn his money the way everyone else did to make his project a reality. Maybe think about that and how much other awesome shit we are missing out on because you want others to suffer
WaxedApple
Bill Gates stole most of his 'innovations' from other people. Things would be be mostly the same without Bill Gates, probably better. He's completely replaceable. Nobody needs rich people to do things.
shalafi71
No idea what the computer scene was like before Windows? Yes, Gates was a monster who steamrolled everything in his path, but it worked.
Dunes8
Some jobs need doing regardless of what the political structure is, in order for society to keep functioning. Stuff like public sanitation.
shalafi71
No, no, no. We just need a system called "socialism", a definition no one will spell out, let alone agree on, and all those nasty jobs...
shalafi71
...disappear! In any case, I'm sure everyone will be very happy to pay $300/mo. for trash service.
kirmokum
most people are "lazy" but that is neither very effective counter argument to socialism nor an effective judge of the value of a person.
Allrighty
Everyone is lazy when held to the standards of capitalism, which views us as machines of flesh and bone that should be put to work every waking hour, pausing only for necessary maintenance.
kirmokum
everybody is "lazy" because all animals tend to seek the path of least resistance.