maximilianfragglebottom
106438
2864
104
Tax them
they're not going to like plan B
Dec 13, 2020 7:27 PM
maximilianfragglebottom
106438
2864
104
they're not going to like plan B
Burke616
Remember when 3,000 Americans dying in one day was enough to completely rearrange our way of life?
ChefBrooke7029
Well said
litlmike
TSLA stock went up because it is about to be included in the S&P 500. Let's not forget that Elon is also trying to solve global warming.
pleaseacknowledgethecat
It’s time
zombiekiller0
Eh.... I know he just owns part of spacex but I support everything that company is doing
W92Baj
These are businessnen with established businesses. They, in the main are not getting rich from others suffering (except amazons employees)
Voidstrider2230
That's how it works when you got a multi billion dollar company.
univac1
Are you implying that Elon Musk exploited the pandemic to get richer? How would he even do that? Amazon makes sense, but Tesla/spaceX?
trippingthelightfantastic
TheCosmicDrifter
Plan ฿
skip2112
And 70 million people for some reason are ok with this stat .
khora
Probably more than that.
ThailandExpress
poochyena
Very misleading since around 50% of americans own stock, so the stock market does, in fact, affect a great deal of people.
BanGurHeaD
Elon Mars
Mack1986
Bill gates has been giving away his money like crazy but he has so much his investments just produce an ungodly amount of returns
JonnyTightlips
Ya Gates would be richest person i the world still if he never started his foundation
Ryebread91
Why did musky get so much? What'd he do?
mesogiria
His company that he owns a big part of was profitable, so the stock price went way up.
MadMupp
If it makes you feel better they were going to get that much richer regardless
nubblebun
Axes or taxes, billionaires. Take your pick.
khora
Axes and a pick?
longshorttermmemorynetwork
Elon Musk didn't actually get that much richer. All of that is Tesla stock, which is in a probable bubble right now.
burglarsonlarceny
Yes ok but Bill Gates is literally trying his best to give his wealth away
Camelspotting
He could easily do a lot more but he wants to maintain some control and I don't fault him for that too much.
FrankTheThunderbird
Did Bezos get money from the government or is that just because everyone is stuck at home ordering shit from Amazon?
Tarmaccian
Look, Frank... don’t question the narrative. You have to hate whoever the hive mind tells you to hate. Them’s the rules.
FrankTheThunderbird
Oh don’t get me wrong, I’ve heard about the horrible working conditions at Amazon. I was just wondering how specifically he got his money.
Tarmaccian
Year to date, Bezos's AMZN valuation rose by $65.3 billion. At peak, it was up $87.7 billion… so I'd guess it's just unrealized gains.
chetnixandflill
How did Musk rake that much in???
eiger3970
Products are life changing.
TheS4ndm4n
Tesla stock is up 600% this year. And he owns 20%
khora
Short sellers of Tesla shares had to give up.
r0twhylr
This doesn't work the way people seem to think. They don't have this cash in their bank accounts. This is the value of stocks they own. 1/?
r0twhylr
*IF* they each sold 10 to 100 billion $ of these stocks to give money away or pay taxes, the price of the stock would tank, and poof, 2/?
r0twhylr
the on-paper wealth vanishes.
Clockworkdancerobot
When wealth generation is so disconnected from the lives of regular people, you have serious problems with priorities.
Euchre
Wealth generation IS connected to the lives of regular people - you buy shit on Amazon, use facebook, buy an Xbox or computer, giving wealth
Euchre
You willingly give that wealth to those companies, making their founders rich.
Euchre
Downvoting doesn't make it untrue - unless most people are willing to change THEIR habits, none of this will change.
UnfathomablyGay
Its pretty damn hard to just not buy a computer or not use social media, and consumers shouldn't be responsible for the bigger-
UnfathomablyGay
-picture of addressing the ridiculous wealth gap or making sure corporations pay taxes. If small businesses had a chance at competition -
Jusmar
It's connected to the valuation of stocks based on a variety of variables, in spite of business success.
Euchre
The stock valuation is based largely on the sales or popular perceived value the company has. People buy the stock, and not just rich ones.
LOlivingVE
This is because they own stock in their companies. The value of their assets (ownership of said companies) went up. This is VERY different
LOlivingVE
Than someone paying them $20,000,000,000 or something. Just saying
Camelspotting
It's not that different.
LOlivingVE
It’s kind of an important distinction. For example, if your neighbors build a pool, the price of their house will go up. Which raises the-
LOlivingVE
-value of your neighborhood and your house. You asset that you own just increased in value, just as their property also increased in value-
LOlivingVE
-this year. The post is sort of accurate, their assets increased in value(you can’t quite say wealth without considering their liabilities,-
Jusmar
That's what all these posts make it sound like, and they'll go on to make it sound like this pile is just sitting there, easy to tax.
Camelspotting
What is the barrier?
mesogiria
Taxing money is easy, it's already liquid and you just take a piece as it moves. Taxing value is harder.
Camelspotting
Marginally, you have to asses it but the government does that all the time.
mesogiria
Also true, yes.
khora
And you need to force a sale (and a purchase), which means suddenly the control of the company is different.
bigmuffin1
How did Elon get richer? Paypal?
The701
Tesla's stock price went way up. Like from ~$67 a year ago to over $600 now, for whatever reason.
rmsrmsrms38
His stocks went up. So his net worth increased. If you owned stocks, it was a good year (some how)...
Euchre
Because of the specific stocks he holds. Online commerce goes up, PayPal goes up. Not sure about Elon's, but Bezos' was largely from that.
RichardJohnsonMD
Tons of people bought Tesla stock and drove up the price. That's it. (Same with Bezos and Amazon.)
Euchre
Amazon went up on elevated revenue, because of online shopping to avoid going out. So, bad Bezos for everyone shopping from home, apparently
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
No Trump gave him a tax break then stimulus money which he used to buy back stocks artificially driving up stock values. It's market
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
manipulation and used to be illegal
TheS4ndm4n
Uhm, tesla is the only company not getting a federal subsidy atm. Because Trump refused to renew EV subsidies.
littlesqueak
Who THE FUCK made it illegal? I swear to Cthulhu if you say trump had something to do with it I’m gonna lose it. Just like net neutrality...
Clockworkdancerobot
In 1982, the SEC adopted rule 10b-18. Soooo.. Reagan.
MrSpookywasagoodboy2
Forget who and when but quite sure it was the GOP
RichardJohnsonMD
Tesla hasn't been buying back stock, they've been selling it to raise capital. They just raised $5B last week.
Yellowdart49
How did Elon Musk get $118b richer?
Natilda
He's invested almost all of his wealth back into his companies, both of which have had good years. Especially Tesla. He's cash-poor though.
Kullabulla
So let me summarize: NOT by exploiting the poor.
khora
His companies wouldn't be where they are if they didn't exploit their workers, including himself.
MrJimmyC
Tesla have had a really good year.
KnowGoYesStopWin
Tesla is joining the S&P 500
ridureyu
He robbed a stage coach full of Bitcoin.
Euchre
Wondered about that. Maybe because his company was trying to make ventilators? His SpaceX success this year? Carbon credits sold by Tesla?
bigkingdingaling
His pay is based off stock price and targets. Hit big milestones and got huge bonuses
Euchre
His net worth is not based on his pay, nor is it anywhere near that $118bn. The info here is non-sequitur, and ruins the argument for change
khora
His bonus was large amounts of Tesla shares. His pay is still California minimum wage.
Euchre
So an income tax won't do a whole lot to him.
InsertNameHereIGuess
Having a massive amount of stocks in Tesla with Tesla stocks going up by an insane amount this year.
Butane9000
Which supposedly is over valued. It's supposed to hit a different exchange and expected to lose 30% of its value. Last I read at least
MaladaptedMedic
Tesla just can’t be worth more than every other automaker combined. (Hyperbole, but not far from it). It’s gotta crash eventually
Biigs
Teslas apply the brakes automatically before a crash so it'll be fine.
RulesOfImgur
Tesla isn't a car company, it's a green energy company. They make solar panels and batteries too
TheS4ndm4n
Why can't it be worth more then a bunch of companies that will be bankrupt in 5 years? How many horses do you see in traffic today?
ShrekFoodVillan
Bankrupt in 5 years I’m hoping is a hyperbole
TheS4ndm4n
All ICE car manufacturers are going bankrupt this decade. Except maybe 1 or 2.
StupidFingAsshole
That's based on the assumption that a stock price is tied to the inherent value of the company, which it isn't
KnowGoYesStopWin
Tesla’s an energy company, not a car company. Musk also got a huge head start on recharging stations all across the country.
RulesOfImgur
Yep, nobody wanted to make electric cars because you could never drive them outside the city because there was no network. 0
SephiRothIRA
And bring the whole S&P500 down with it *reallocated to small caps*
SephiRothIRA
Just kidding, after this year, anything can happen at anytime.
3Davideo
Tesla stock price shot up. For whatever reason people suddenly switched from betting it will go down to betting it will go up.
TheS4ndm4n
Well, they started making a profit. 5 profitable quarters in a row. During a pandemic. While the competition is losing big.
The701
Convenient chart:
... and also another link: https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/
Euchre
Important to notes: net worth =/= salary made per year, Bezos =/= Amazon, stock value =/= revenue. Much is conflated poorly, very often.
Camelspotting
None of that is actually true, only convention.
TheBestSpiderQueen
And yet Bezos sold 10 billion worth of stock. He made 10 billion in liquidity.
Euchre
Which is a lot less than the $71.4bn OP shows, and he'd be taxed on that $10bn as income at whatever rate people are proposing.
TheBestSpiderQueen
Currently less than what I get taxed at, but what OP posted is net worth growth due to stock worth increase. Still, making 10bn is absurd
Euchre
May sound weird, but I don't think it is absurd. That he made it based on basically what people FEEL stock is worth is absurd to me.
NastyNashty
THANK YOU. Tax Bezos all you want, his “income” was <$100k. What you really want is to tax corporations, which is a different discussion.
TheBestSpiderQueen
His income for the year was 10 billion from sold stocks.
NastyNashty
You’re right, should’ve said salary. These mega rich aren’t bringing home large salaries, their net worth is tied to their companies.
WwwhyYouNoLikeMe
What you really want is to stop profit shifting. Fix tax loopholes and no new taxes will be necessary
NastyNashty
Amen.
photoshopbot01
How the hell did ol' Musky pull off a 5x increase?
khora
Tesla stock has been artificially kept low by massive shorting from oil & gas. When the dam broke it overshoot.
Camelspotting
Because Tesla's value is only based on speculation and speculation has been through the roof all year.
InsertNameHereIGuess
Tesla stocks went up by a lot, that's it.
JonnyTightlips
also SpaceX which is private, but yeah, mostly Tesla
Ezekiel117
People want off this fucking planet
ThoughtYouSaidSithLord
3Davideo
It's driven by a dramatic increase in the value of Tesla stock. I forget the exact circumstances, but I seem to recall it was something >
3Davideo
> like the price was being depressed for years by short sellers (people betting the price will go down), then for some reason Tesla >
3Davideo
> beat its expectations for the Nth time in a row and suddenly everybody started betting the other way instead.
maxitaur
Tesla got included in the S&P 500, which requires all companies in it to own some of all the others or something like that
The701
Checking.... Yahoo Finance shows forward P/E of 151.52, and trailing P/E of 1,160 for Tesla. Seems high.
PapiChuloNumeroUno
By claiming all his business' are crucial to life so the employees and factory workers go as essential workers.
getguds
Raileks
I recall watching the tesla stock go from $300 to $2000+ this spring. Couldn't tell you why.
getguds
i'm sure this helped
maxitaur
Tesla got included in the S&P 500, which requires all companies in it to own some of all the others or something like that
khora
No, there are funds that are required by their charter to own shares of all S&P 500 companies.
MrTay
They are so rich that hates has actively been trying together rid of it and can’t sign the checks fast enough.
Euchre
But he's still a bad guy, because he created a successful business. It did some bad things, for sure, but not humanitarian harm - unlike....
storebrandproductmascot
You think Microsoft's anti-competitive practices in the '90s didn't hurt the poor bastards who worked for their competitors?
MiguelCamino
Their anti competitive practice was including a word processor with windows. So fucking evil!
Euchre
MS didn't make the competitors workers not take bathroom breaks. They probably hired a lot of the workers dead competitors shed. Who they...
Euchre
...really hurt most is consumers. MS under Gates is no hero, but didn't harm its workers, which was my point of comparison.
Euchre
...Amazon treating workers poorly (which everyone STILL buys from anyway), or facebook exploiting everyone, ignoring issues like voter....
Euchre
...manipulation and misinformation campaigns. But hey, it is easier to bitch about how rich people are and do nothing else to change it.
UnfathomablyGay
If you dig a little deeper there are people proposing solutions, and you dont need to have the exact solution to point out a problem
Euchre
This post is trying to conflate different problems that don't share a common cause, and proposing taxing a few specific wealthy people...
Armored0Titan0
There is no ethical way to become a billionaire. Gates practically invented crunch culture in America.
neborno
Tesla is a good employeer from what I hear and SpaceX is booming due to streamlined manufacturing. Cant outsource rockets.
calisaya
Tesla and SpaceX were apparently pretty awful to work at as of a couple years ago. 80 hour weeks required, massive turnover
fatlegsauntpam
People complain about Amazon but won't stop using Amazon.
ChrisThrasher
I wish they would pay their employees a middle class wage respective of the area they lived in along with full benefits.
khora
I don't use Amazon. Easy when they are not in the country.
grantavius
People complain about Bezos, while still using Amazon. That is a different thing.
zombiekiller0
Because its way too convient
Moosecock
Some of us don’t have other options living in rural areas.
Goddamnitmisterrnoodle
Amazon is a great service and shouldn't be punished for it's success. Bezos being a greedy cunt is what needs fixing.
MrTrevorBelmont
Paying taxes is punishment?
storebrandproductmascot
Please outline a way to punish Bezos's greed without "punishing Amazon's success"
BatmansUnderPantsAreSoSoft
I mostly stopped. If I can buy direct I have been. Camera gear I switched to adorama and B&H. Computer hardware I went back to Newegg even
DexPumpkinGod
Heck, I went back to Newegg and found some great Mac parts suppliers too, just because Amazon is so full of counterfeit garbage.
BatmansUnderPantsAreSoSoft
Though they're a bitch of dickbags as well but online hardware stores are either Amazon and Newegg
DarthVaderDidNothingWrong
Well, it is a good service. I'm not anti delivery, I'm anti not paying taxes. And it's not true that there won't be Amazon if they paid tax
Euchre
What relationship do you think there is between Amazon 'not paying taxes', and Bezos' net worth?
DexPumpkinGod
The profits margin- drives stock price- drives Bezos worth. It’s pretty simple.
Euchre
Drives stock price way less than total revenue. As in, everyone staying home and ordering on Amazon made his balloon, not tax evasion.
Euchre
Also, that doesn't connect how Amazon not paying taxes is fixed by taxing the personal net worth of Bezos. There are issues here, but they..
wannabecowboy
I think a lot of people are forgetting it’s very simple for a business to not pay any taxes by simply spending all of their profits.
wannabecowboy
I mean I’ve seen a lot more Amazon vans and trucks and semis now. They could be using a large chunk of their profits to buy those instead.
d20taverns
It's exactly that. Amazon pays low taxes because they spend nearly their entire profit in new investment. That is a cost. 1/2
d20taverns
& that shouldn't be taxed. How many people swapped to delivery driving these past 9 months? How many incomes exist because of amazon? 2/x
wannabecowboy
It’s actually a reason I’m not a fan of AOC. She blocked Amazon from building near NYC which would’ve brought in 27.5 bil over 25 years
Arrowheadx1
Monster before Amazon was and still is Walmart. People's idealism generally ends at a ten cent price difference and one stop shopping.
bomdroppinfoo
I don't use Amazon anymore. I also buy american made whenever possible. I spend more to buy local. Gotta start somewhere
Thingamajiggly
That's awesome. Not all people have the luxury or ability to do that, though
bomdroppinfoo
People shouldnt have to struggle if they're willing to work. Hardly anyone can save anymore and money is a major worry. American dream, bah!
KeiraWalker
Bill Gates would donate MILLIONS of that to various causes... but is at least honest that better people have done more with less than him.
poochyena
Bezos donates billions
hedcase
Yeah, they donate millions, but that's basically normal people dumping a quarter in a donation bucket every now & then.
KillingTlme
He should "donate" 18 billion of it and pay it in taxes.
jackinpants11
All I can think of is altered carbon
TheVampireDante
Some of Bill's contributions were to take focus off his BS business practice of bullying smaller companies that had something he wanted.
agonarch
As much as I feel dirty defending him, I think he's a looong way away from that these days.
TheVampireDante
True, just feel people shouldn't forget that was part of his operating standard at one point.
LunaLeMoon
Bill is just as corrupt. No one makes billions and hasnt fucked over others to do so. No one has ever earned billions of dollers. You cant.
IReallyNeedToKnow
Yeah but he’s giving it away so that he can make it again in multiples by injecting us with Microsoft #sarcasm
MyVoice
Millions of the /extra/ billions. I'm so sick of hearing how generous he is.
ScottHitz
Bill Gates will forever try to offset the sins which made him a household name. Fuck that guy.
insomniac24x7
He donated large sums of money towards COVID.
starwaffle1
I remember that interview. 'I'm not generous. I donate millions- but it's pocket change for me, compared to someone with $100 who gives $1.'
Sinmiedo1931
Yeah, I don’t want some unelected rich person deciding who deserves help.
lovingspace
I hated Bill Gates the Chairman of MS, but I love Bill Gates the philanthropist.
jobe
I think Melinda had a lot of influence on him also, helped shift his worldview.
Counterfit
Definitely. She's a damn saint
yifin
Does some serious good so long as he's listening to experts but the way he's handled charter schools is not great.
wHatThEQuAk
I mean he is the better and more intelligent one under those three. And thats definitely not hard though
lovingspace
I think you underestimate their intelligence. They may lack a lot of things, but I don't think they lack intelligence. You really cannot...
lovingspace
..get to that level of success with a low or even average IQ. But Elon and Bezos scare me for their lack of ethics and their long term plan.
wHatThEQuAk
I meant the good part more than intelligence. Bill seams to increase his spectrum of wisdom compared to the other two at least
Lifesuckswearahelmet
I listened to a thing on NPR about how he can't give it away fast enough. All the paperwork involved is a hindrance.
PimpinKen
There is that and deciding how to donate to impact the most people possible
SoraHjort
probably would explain why he gave away stocks in microsoft instead of cash at one point.
simplygimply
I volunteer to sort that for him.
IMakeLotsOfReferencesAndRemakes
Part of why, in my opinion, billionaires shouldn't exist. The financials decisions of efficiently spending all that near impossible without>
IMakeLotsOfReferencesAndRemakes
an enormous team dedicated solely to managing your personal holdings. Completely separate from his business. Paying the people who work for>
IMakeLotsOfReferencesAndRemakes
him all a much greater share of the income generated means faster money circulation and we see what crowdfunding can do already.
Kodaxmax
Exactly, should just tax 100% of income over a certain amount. but i cant help but assume bill gates is not being entirely truthful.
Itchy73
Gates has done more good then everyone on this thread ever has.
CasualBoulder
Bit of a misquote, hard to find someone who has done more than him, he just argues he's not the most generous because his giving >
CasualBoulder
Requires no personal sacrifice. Vs someone participating in doctors without borders, who give up years of their lives to help others.
MarcusRiedner
You realize the Gates Foundation is a way to dodge taxes and inheritance laws right?
MarcusRiedner
By moving their wealth into a charity they can protect it from taxes, plus get a huge tax credit to carry forward. Then they place their
MarcusRiedner
descendants on the board of directors as paid board members; the board can set whatever salary they want to set. Then the
MarcusRiedner
foundation acts as an institutional investor, continuing to build the wealth of the foundation which is legally arms length but in
MarcusRiedner
reality operated by the Gates family, who get seven figure salaries to grow their wealth. Then they go sit on the boards of their other
RomeyRoone09
End tax break for charity donations. See how quickly all the 1% ers stop giving to charity. [1/2]
Haidere1988
End tax breaks to any company with even a single employee on public assistance
Oscarwildebastardson
Gates will donate most of it to charity and others are set to follow.
khrestyn
I'd happily kill that tax break if it means these assholes pay their damn taxes.
RomeyRoone09
I'm frankly sick of companies bragging about their donations to charity, when they can't give their employees decent work conditions/wage.
QT3pt141592653
The majority of the time they're customer/client contributions. "Would you give a dollar to feed displaced penguins in Guatemala?"
otherJeffsarefalseJeffs
Gates has given away $50 billion and pledged to give away 90+% of his wealth before he dies. At least he is giving back.
ge0rd1eb4lls
Bill Gates doesn't brag. He never brings it up - everyone else does.
MrJimmyRustles
Bill Gates isn't what he was referring to. Companies like amzn who abuse their workers then donate $5k for 'social justice.'
GimmethatD
Have you seen those stupid-ass renewable energy commercials they have now? "Look, we bought a windmill! We're so forward thinking!" - Amazon
Kodaxmax
yeh it defeats the entire point of both the charity and tax. instead the money going to aid for the poor, it goes to aid the poor.
jjjones30
Bill gates is amazing with his level of charity and encourages other rich people to give also.
BananFitPlayer
Just make it tax deductible to pay salary, then it'll suddenly not be a problem.
SomeDetroitGuy
You do know that it is, right? Salary is absolutely tax deductible for a corporation.
BananFitPlayer
You pay salary before tax. it's an expense, not a deductible.
END3RW1GGIN
1)The hospital I work at is PROUD of the fact that they collected money from their EMPLOYEES to purchase NECESSARY medical equipment for the
END3RW1GGIN
2) NICU. Necessary. Fucking. Equipment. and they're proud of the fact. I won't give them a cent. I'll donate to an organization or cause
END3RW1GGIN
3) that will actually help people.
ILikeToSeeNudes
This is why I don't donate to store donations they claim the tax break on my buck the can go screw themselves.
SomeDetroitGuy
They don't "claim the tax break on your buck". That would be tax fraud.
TwitchFox
no idea why you were downvoted. Stores asking for donations do indeed turn around and claim those donations as their own for tax breaks.
BreisZeldaFitzgerald
I looked it up recently because I thought the same, they actually can not legally do so.
SomeDetroitGuy
Because they don't do that. What you described is tax fraud.