mibakr
213354
4668
448
Feb 19, 2017 10:34 AM
mibakr
213354
4668
448
ochanomitaina
No one should work, if they don't want to. Working is the way that makes you suffer. Don't be a slave.
MikeAracter
Well that's not very socialist is it...
Rakint
As a manager I give my employees every opportunity to learn how to do my job and they don't take it
vanella
....but mining coal is such a great job - Homer Hickam....
prestonhazel
Many times people think if you're in poverty you somehow deserve it. Job or no job you earned that.
TheFastpaws
I hear people say all the time certain jobs are so easy they don't deserve a living wage. So lots of jerks disagree with it sadly.
RandoCalrizzian
Nobody disagrees with this sentiment, everyone disagrees on how to get there.
deytookerjers
Every time I attempt to offer a counter point to politics on Imgur, I'm happily reminded that 140 char's isn't enough to make a difference.
DenounceAll
Amen
phaerim
People work poor: "Get a better job. And learn to handle money". We should educate people in ghettos better: "God no more taxes pls".
JoeBobBriggs
Then stop taxing the shit out of us and driving down the buying power of the Dollar
Mewmus
maybe instead of raising min wage to $15 nationwide, we can just adjust min wage to the cost of living in your area?
xatinha
If u start at McDonald's, you can't stay there forever. You need to get experience and move on from there and so on. Just my opinion.
Mcmcman
If you graduate high school, get a job, and are married before you have kids, you have a 2% chance to be in poverty. If you make bad life 1/
Mcmcman
Decisions, it is not the responsibility of others to pay your way so you can be comfortable. Live with your choices. 2/2
Wonderbeastlett
Husband works full time, I work 2 jobs and we have no money because of what we pay to student loans!
Shepsus
When asked directly? No. But owners of big corporations will turn a blind eye to pay raises in favor of profits. Despite the cost of living
Apath3ticLizard
You could have my luck. Have review 1x yr. Get .50 cent raise. Told company not doing well, but they did buy 3 companies this past year!
123angelsandairwaves123
I consider myself lucky. My employer gives everyone a yearly 3% "cost of living" increase in June. 14 of last 15 yrs. Exception was 2009
NotifweJammit
3% is actually a little higher than GDP increases
123angelsandairwaves123
I was rounding. The controller bases it on inflation rate. I remember the lowest was 2.5% once, a few 2.75%, but mostly 3%
NotifweJammit
Can we just go back to titties now?!?!
123angelsandairwaves123
Yes please!
Seethreepeeoh
Not wrong. But all business owners will do this (not just big nasty ones). Staff is an overhead and overhead must be reduced.
pudf
'Must' be reduced?
Shepsus
Though I don't have the proper source, there is studies done that smaller companies tend to pay their employees better, but you're not wrong
GandalfTheHEYHEY
I feel a company with stock, with responsibility to multiple "owners", tends to be the culprit here. Similar to what you're saying
pudf
I had a small company for many years,paid my workers better than average. I did good, they did good. Can't say how that works on large scale
Seethreepeeoh
Many larger comps have similar, often formal, arrangements. Small biz is not easy biz (as you will know) & needs buy-in from staff 2 survive
dxd2
Frequently it is the public assistance "keeping" a person there as it punishes them for getting a (better) job, so they don't
Xandraelle
When public assistance pays more than a job then their is something wrong with our economy
ilikeddinosaurswheniwaskid
Literally heard overheard this statement "Why get a job? I make more on welfare." We need to back a living wage and fix welfare.
dxd2
Living wage and companies won't hire. We need a public assistance program that doesn't disincentivize work
ilikeddinosaurswheniwaskid
I have plan. I call it the 1%. Public assistance goes down 1% per month. Eventually getting a job makes more sense than welfare.
dxd2
Change it so that you don't lose for gaining employment would be a big step.And make it "cost" something,eventually not worth it to collect
BranOfTheNorth
"Come on commies, everyone knows you just have to find a better job! Lift yourselves out of poverty!"- Every middle class libertarian ever
Xandraelle
Which is funny because even the middle class is relatively poor and I don't understand why they hate on those poorer than them so much
mfizz1e
THE TOP 1%ers WEALTH DISTRIBUTION IM BERNIE AND THIS IS ALL I KNOW
Treyceratops
You have a good start, now just look into it and see for yourself if the top 1% is a problem. (hint, it is) :)
Jimmerus
As a liberal I don't necessarily believe in raising the min. wage. But workers should be entitled to recognition for their hard work.
Jimmerus
The person that busts their ass deserves a pay raise sometimes. But the prick that barely skates by deserves nothing more than minimum wage.
thesassenachmoose
I'm too poor to be in poverty. I work in the Medical field and i can barely keep my head above water.
Csjetter
As do I. Until recently I wasn't being paid enough to cover the costs of my degree that the job required.
SenatorHillaryIAmStillInTheRaceClinton
Horse shit. We live in such a time of plenty that even the poorest of our poor have problems with obesity. You just don't understand poor.
robotzombies
I am almost 100% certain you don't understand how poverty works.
thesassenachmoose
Its sucks when youve only got $90 for food and all the cheap stuff is fattening. Specially when you work 16 hour shifts. Constantly.
Imnotfollowingyou
Most stock holders prefer profits and dividends over better wages.
Treyceratops
Yea, because they lose less money.
InappropriateGifReplier
Says the man that wants to give away free college payable by those that had to work their way through college.
ArcaneConjecture
Think of it as the government training your employees for free.
ElasticDeMan
Hopefully in a degree that you can use. Was free trade school in Bernie's book as well? to lazy to look up
Xandraelle
Yes it was
amglasgow
Investing in people's education is smart.
NoSleepTilBrooklyn
A lot of people disagree with this. We live in a world full of shitty, selfish people.
obsequiouslifechoices
With accounts.
Treyceratops
Yup. America breeds greed and individualism, that's why you see such a push back against Bernie and this huge ideological divide.
Thehumanracestinx
It's not a giant push back though. Poll after poll shows that the majority of Americans agree with almost all of Bernie's ideas. Sadly most
Thehumanracestinx
Americans did not vote in this election,for various reasons,so they're a silent majority.
supersomatic
Sometimes, in order for their to be a winner, there must be a loser. It really is a case of hating the game rather than the player.
Thehumanracestinx
There are more than enough resources for everyone on the planet to have enough. This western "capitalism" system is grossly unfair and waste
supersomatic
Do you think you have "enough", or more than enough? I mean, feel free to give stuff up till you have only what you need.
Thehumanracestinx
Bitch,golden toilets and weekly Florida vacations are "normal" to some people. So yeah, people could stand to give a little so that others c
Thehumanracestinx
an live. More to the point is the fact that A) the grocery and restaurant industries throw out literally TONS of edible food every year and
Thehumanracestinx
ful
DingDongSingAlong
A job should be the voluntary exchange of a person's time and talents in exchange for things of value. Anyone disagree with that?
ArcaneConjecture
Conservatives who pass anti-union laws disagree. They restrict you from making a free-market contract with your employer.
DingDongSingAlong
I think you may misunderstand what right to work is. Making a free market contract with an employer is *exactly* what right to work is.
ArcaneConjecture
These laws actually RESTRICT contracts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law
ArcaneConjecture
No. Read the text of these laws. They *PROHIBIT* employers from making private contracts with unions. They are anti-freedom.
amglasgow
Right to work means that employers get to screw their employees and the employees can't band together to avoid being screwed.
DingDongSingAlong
OK, so you don't understand. Right to work /=/ no union. Just means you can't force me to join something I don't want to just to work.
ArcaneConjecture
If I own the factory, why should Big Government tell me what contracts I can and can't make with those who choose to work for me?
Rommel12
You realise that as long as poverty is classed as being below a certain % of median income there'll always be people in poverty right?
dxd2
Ssssshhhh logic isn't welcome here
robotzombies
That isn't how poverty is determined.
Fleecemaster
Seems not in America, but it is in the UK, technically I'm in poverty
TheWayADrillWorks
I looked into this in an attempt to prove you wrong but it turns out you're right http://www.irp.wisc.edu/faqs/faq2.htm
TheWayADrillWorks
What we can take away from this is, to lift everyone out of poverty we need to make food dirt cheap.
robotzombies
Good job on taking initiative and doing reaearch. I don't think you're supposed to do that on the internet.
TheWayADrillWorks
I'm pretty sure you're only supposed to care if people you're arguing with have done theirs.
thatoneguywhodidthatthingonetime
And then he introduces policies that stifle competition, ensuring that the workers are screwed. But, he's nice or something?
jacquesrobespierre
Incorrect
thatoneguywhodidthatthingonetime
His policies encourage competition?
jacquesrobespierre
I don't see that they discourage it. It's not all one way or the exact opposite.
thatoneguywhodidthatthingonetime
Big businesses benefit from regulation, because they can hang on while the smaller ones are strangled, effectively stifling competition.
jacquesrobespierre
Again incorrect. That is not an absolute. Some regulations definitely do favor big business. Not all. They can be written in such a way
jacquesrobespierre
that their effects on small business are mitigated. Not that they often are written that way. But they can be.
catprolly
The capitalist creed is "we must maximize profits regardless of the social and environmental cost."
supersomatic
No, its "every man for himself"
lazyamerican
Capitalism has lifted more humans out of poverty than any economic philosophy in the history of mankind.
bobmarlylooter12
The Capitalist creed is, i have ownership of myself and the things i create
obsequiouslifechoices
The awful truth.
SpecialContainmentProcedures
'cause I owe my soul to the company store...
notme222
It is? I have both of Adam Smith's books here. What page is that quote from?
CephalopodLodge4
Oh yeah cause capitalism is the problem, not lazy people
vidyagaem
oh christ ancap people. the problem with capitalism is the corruption within it, not itself.
TJskillz169
Good thing we're not a true capitalist society then, ain't it?
ForReasonsOfScience
"Privatize the gains, socialize the cost." That's the mentality
DrgnSlynLmbrJak
Capitalism isn't bad. Capitalism without a moral compass is.
FlorenceAndTheMachined
"Capitalism" and "Moral" don't go together
DrgnSlynLmbrJak
Capitalism is a framework, Not a moral school.
FlorenceAndTheMachined
Not saying it is, I'm saying that within this framework a "moral compass" cannot exist.
DrgnSlynLmbrJak
And what I'm saying is that is not true. Capitalism gives you the ability to operate morally or not. It gives you that freedom.
memberwar
That's the conservative creed. Capitalism != a form of government. Liberals who want clean env and social safety nets aren't anticapitalist.
FlorenceAndTheMachined
Sure, I bet actual Capitalists would totally agree with that statement.
FlorenceAndTheMachined
Sure, I bet actual Capitalists would totally agree with that statement.
FlorenceAndTheMachined
Sure, I bet actual Capitalists would totally agree with that statement.
FlorenceAndTheMachined
Sure, I bet actual Capitalists would totally agree with that statement.
FlorenceAndTheMachined
Sure, I bet actual Capitalists would totally agree with that statement.
Guilead
Socialist idealism is "Everyone owns everything. There's no such thing as exceptionalism. There's no WAY this could go wrong."
Elroydb
Source? I've always understood it as keeping the product of one's labor. Contract law handles the rest. If you're trading clean water
Elroydb
upstream for dirty water for someone downstream and they did not agree to it then in comes contract law to identify who was harmed and who
Elroydb
did the harm and the proper course to rectify the situation
pudf
Maybe mostly it is, but I don't think it needs be. I think that's the creed because of unskillful thinking and doesn't make anyone happy
Goodwolf
Thanks to free market principles, from 1990 to 2012, the number of the world's extreme poor was cut in half... 1
Goodwolf
, the first significant global decline in extreme poverty. You can downvote if you like, but I can supply sources for my claim.
Chisagab
Extreme poverty is a different than what Bernie was referencing.
Goodwolf
Yeah, he's just talking about good old first world poverty I guess.
bobmarlylooter12
What is it, like 9/10 americans are upperclass compared to the world?
Goodwolf
According to last figures, if you make more than 34k a year, you're in the top 1%, globally speaking. So yeah, we're doing pretty good.
Elroydb
That was the point. His definition of poverty is relative and as such cannot be eliminated
skooterLaughin
Doesn't make OC's point any less valid.
Goodwolf
Here's the thing... if you make more than 34k/yr, *you're* in the global 1%. If you want to see true, grinding poverty, *real* poverty 1/?
Goodwolf
in the US, take a quick jaunt to the nearest Native American Reservation. What Bernie thinks of as poverty is pretty tame by comparison.
smellsmiketeenspirit
It does make it irrelevant to the conversation though and just side tracked use from the problem at hand.
mibakr
That doesn't sound like a good way to create a society.
TheChef1212
That creed combined with a government that follows the best interest of the people would be a good way to create a society. 1/2
TheChef1212
We lack the latter. 2/2
pokenar
Its not, However we don't really have any better alternatives except maybe a capitalist/socialist hybrid that some countries have adopted.
Elroydb
It has historically proven superior to all the attempted organized societies
FlorenceAndTheMachined
Mostly because these other societies have been a response to the exploitation of Capitalists. The problem wasn't that these societies 1/2
FlorenceAndTheMachined
weren't Capitalist enough, to CAPITALISTS it was the problem, these societies have consistently been replaced by Capitalist dictatorships
Elroydb
Such as...?
FlorenceAndTheMachined
Ever heard of Pinochet? How about the Banana Republics? Maybe the corruption of elections in Italy by the CIA? Admittedly, I am naming 1/2
FlorenceAndTheMachined
Things committed by the U.S. but it's policies are heavily influenced by Capitalists and leftovers of the Red Scare 2/2
GuyNamedSean
If you ask capitalists, they'll argue that the free market would actually make companies want to protect the environment and their workers.
charlieb2
Theoretically maybe but theory is not backed up by any data that I'm aware of.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Elroydb
Some monopolies are unavoidable. Given the choice I'd rather one that was formed because of superior business tactics than legislation
GuyNamedSean
See, I've seen it argued that market forces would naturally keep monopolies from forming if consumers were educated about them.
mibakr
Would it help a Comcast consumer, if he is educated?
Gemsta
That argument is based on rational actors which we know psychologically and sociologically do not exist.
mibakr
Do pure capitalism not mean, that all the capital ends in one place?
GuyNamedSean
Pure capitalism would be a purely free market with no restrictions on it. Which some (including myself) argue would guarantee monopolies.
aPokal
How unrestricted? Like i could hire a PMC to takeover someone else by martial force? Always wonder of that. Like a democracy dents to form
Prometheus79
Because it did. We have historical evidence of this. Free markets tend to destroy personal freedoms
Redwood99
Sub "career" for "job" and I agree. A job, however, can be but a stepping stone to a career. A hamburger flipper should not be a career.
amglasgow
So in your perfect world, who flips hamburgers?
Starcatcher1986
"Improving one's self" generally takes both disposable income and free time. Barely scraping by flipping burgers full time means you can't.
Redwood99
That's not true. I worked 2 jobs while going to college. It takes focus.
boogiemanspud
What if you had 2 kids? Would you have been able to better yourself in college and work 2 jobs? Everyone's situation is different.
Redwood99
I have 4 kids. And a wife who can't work. So ..... What?
Virus322
Sounds like your wife did plenty of work, raising the children, cleaning, cooking, laundry, basically running your life for you while 1/2
GeromeTheGnome
You fundamentally misunderstand the cycle of impovrishment. Seek more knowledge.
Redwood99
I fundamentally don't take "It's too hard!" as a valid excuse.
GeromeTheGnome
I'm sorry you think that it's that simple. I hope you take the time in the future to dissect these important issues with more understanding
amglasgow
So in your perfect world, who flips hamburgers?
Redwood99
Kids. Getting experience on their way up.
amglasgow
So how do we deal with the fact that jobs like those are the only jobs that some people can find and qualify for, even as adults?
Redwood99
Who are these people? Personally, I can't find enough people to work for me for $12.00/hr.
mcretso
Ya know, I'd be OK with paying a bit more for a burger made by a guy who saw it as his career rather than a way to make beer money.
dukebound85
Not me
spiderqueendemon
I'd like burger flippers to make enough for food, a place to live and utilities. Assistant managers could marry, managers, middle class.
spiderqueendemon
Maybe not the high end of the middle class, but at least above the poverty line. Wage increases will help, but we'd also want housing help.
SolitaireUnraveling
And just because you start flipping burgers, doesn't mean you have to stop looking for better. Took a few years of bouncing around for me.
spiderqueendemon
A school friend of mine flipped burgers from high school through college and is now a manager. Also does motivational speaking and mentors.
spiderqueendemon
She's still in poverty, but not as bad as the poverty we grew up in, she can afford a pet, she helps her family and is a good person.
spiderqueendemon
She mentors kids with learning disabilities like hers (dyslexia,) and sometimes she hires a couple. One boy graduated and credited her help.
spiderqueendemon
Her degree is in biology and she's still looking for work in her field, but even if she does get to teach science, she'd still cook.
booksaresoghey
Why not?
Redwood99
You're right. McD and BK is what I meant. By all means flip the best burger at your own place and charge an arm and a leg!
booksaresoghey
...what...
Starcatcher1986
"Improving one's self" generally takes both disposable income and free time. Barely scraping by flipping burgers full time means you can't.
Redwood99
I disagree. Mainly because I did it.
CloakerJosh
Why not? Not my path, but some people aren't necessary equipped for more.
GeorgeHWBushsGhost
There are many jobs that you can take as a career that don't require anything more that a high school degree e.g. secretary, truck driver->
GeorgeHWBushsGhost
(which are in high demand rn) call representative, etc. You shouldn't ever think that you're limited to flipping burgers at McDonald's.
CloakerJosh
Sure, but you have to know that there is a finite amount of these. Here's some considerations: The population is growing. Even skilled 1/
CloakerJosh
jobs are becoming harder to get. Unskilled jobs are diminishing due to the rise of automation, which will rise exponentially over the 2/
CloakerJosh
next 10 - 15 years. Capitalism is a growth model, which requires greater profit and expansion year on year to remain viable. These are a 3/
guactopus
Apparently people do because if you argue this point, a common response is "get a better job lmao"
urustai
My favorite in response to being an area where it's a job desert: Move to an area to get a better job rofl
DonaldSossamon
Alot of available jobs don't even try to lift you up
BadgerTribe
As if 'better jobs' grow on fucking trees.
hobotopia
Problem, cost too much for EVERY job to be uplifting out of poverty
Tunaccat
Don't make enough? "get a better job lmao" Harassed at work? "get a better job lmao" Don't get any health insurance? "get a better job lmao"
inspiringandfunnyusernamecoolheh
Yes and this is most ignorant and stupid answer, spit in the face.
MrFnortner
I won't call you the names you deserve but I'll ask you, do you offer to pay more for the things you buy because the cashier deserves more?
Musamura0987
Reminds me of Grave of the Fireflies when the doctor says all his sister needs is food and the brother yells WHERE AM I SUPPOSED TO GET FOOD
justahumanonline
there is a difference between a job and career
SystemZombie
And you probably have a job, with ignorant comments like that.
DaemeonX
Ill up vote that.
pvtwestbrook86
Serious question: What's wrong with that response?
legitkhajiit
1/2 We need people to do the jobs that we dont want to do, they should be paid livable wages. I don't want to pick my own fruit but
legitkhajiit
2/2 I'm happy to pay more for it. Most of the cost of better wages would come from repealing corp. tax welfare.
pvtwestbrook86
You understand that double fucks the corporations (whether they deserve it is irrelevant) and would simply result in removing those jobs?
dirtydiapers
I just don't understand why people would work for someone that doesn't want to pay what your skills demand in compensation
ShinyAsChrome
Your pay depends on market value. That, in part, depends on what others will accept in terms of pay
Eliroyall
Because for most people in that situation the only other option is to starve.
laddeao
Very few people would pay what someone's work is worth. There's no money in that, and money is all that matters at the top
SuperCerealManBearPig
I agree with that unless it's minimum wage. That's not meant to be a career and if you make it one it's your own fault you can't pay rent
DickMercenary
But minimum wage should still be a livable wage. Not saying living in a turbo mansion and wearing a monocle but.. food and rent at least.
Eliroyall
Minimum wage is supposed to afford you a home, food, and recreational expenses. That's what it was designed for.
Treyceratops
Minimum wage should still be above the poverty line.
SuperCerealManBearPig
Yeah but why? It's literally the lowest possible amount you can legally be paid. Its what high schoolers do to get money for the movies
S4telliteJ4ck
The full name of minimum wage is minimum LIVING wage. Originally, it was to make sure people could as least eat a meal in their own home.
Romale
None of his policies will actually do this, it's a macro problem that's done deliberately
WarmCigarette
How does raising the federal minimum wage not address the macro problem of intentionally stagnant wages?
Romale
because you are solving inflation by causing more inflation, meanwhile you're also pricing labor out of the market
Romale
It's a bad habit where we try to fix a symptom instead of the issue, the issue is inflation.
WarmCigarette
Inflation has already happened, just not on the end of worker incomes.
Romale
1. Correct, However, you can't ever catch it, inflation is a lagging indicator and the official CPI numbers were changed in the 80s and 90s
Romale
5 and yes i can feel the eyes rolling at this statement. Even Mr. put Greenspan is coming around to realize he fucked up
Romale
4 caused by artificially setting interest rates and fiat money.
Romale
3 the attempts to control markets just break them. Everything we do to manipulate markets is an attempt to correct for the breakage
Romale
2 and understate inflation, making the issue even worse. On Top of that, while you attempt to catch it you price labor out of the market.
CatWithHands
Apparently Google paid their employees "too much" because after the project they could stop working there. THATS HOW IT IS SUPPOSED TO WORK!
JoshLeijs
What? You mean they can retire at a young age? Or after a short term project they could retire?
redhatbluehatonehattwohat
Quitting a job isn't retiring
JoshLeijs
Wait, so he is saying they were paid so well, they quit? That's how all short term projects should be?
redhatbluehatonehattwohat
That's how most contracted projects are currently
QuasiIntellectualChimpanzee
Sure. Let me just go out there to the job store where I can just get a job with higher Consumer Reports ratings.
Glorphanmad
Strap on my job helmet, put me into a job cannon and shoot me to job land, where jobs grow on jobbies!
memberwar
Love this. Funny how retail prices are known, but nobody has access to retail payscales. Gee who does that benefit?
QuasiIntellectualChimpanzee
Maybe I can order one on Amazon.
notme222
That sounds like agreeing to me. A better job *would* lift them out of poverty, no?
dirtydiapers
Some people just don't want to try.
guactopus
When people have 2 jobs and work over 50 hour weeks and still qualify for food stamps, go tell them they're not trying.
dirtydiapers
Some people genuinely need help and gvmt assist is there to get them through those times but they need to find a way to increase their wages
dirtydiapers
And get off government assistance
notme222
This isn't even about work or wages anymore. Some people would rather have a political fight than find even small opportunities to agree.
dirtydiapers
The way I see it no one in government will help me out. I dont want their help I don't need their help. It's up to me to better my situation
notme222
Yes, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" are words to fear. However, family/friends support helps and we don't all have that.
EricFromAccounts
Way to go buddy. Why try and work to find solutions to a global existential crisis when you can just shit on countless billions instead.
dirtydiapers
Buddy, Getting a business to pay above market wages isn't really a solution imo. That's one way businesses go out of business
Treyceratops
No. All full time workers should be not living in poverty, regardless of the job.
notme222
Do you see what you just said? You just got their hours dropped from 40 to 39. Welcome to unintended consequences.
Treyceratops
We should be working towards that, is all I'm saying. I know we could be doing a much better job of it.
Treyceratops
Also 35 hours a week is considered full time in many respectable countries.
notme222
Some of which are going back. France was at 35, last year went up to 48 because their unemployment is double ours.
Belatorius
"lazy liberals"
Horehey360
I always find that term funny because a majority of unemployment is in red states.
JayEnfield
One I get: "All the big city problems are because democrat mayors have been in control there for decades!"
scnottaken
and that's not even considering that most blue states fund red states with federal funds, keeping their state income taxes artificially low.
guactopus
Seems to be a trend. The GOP seem to always be against reform for the things that are plaguing their states.
EricFromAccounts
And the turkeys continue voting for christmas.
arrbos
"Let's vote for a NYC billionaire, he totally gets us!"
Belatorius
I'm in a red state. It's pretty damn rough
redhatbluehatonehattwohat
There are plenty of tech jobs on the coasts
Belatorius
Yeah I imagine the job market is different out of this state. Like 90% of work here is food..lucky to land a factory job
Horehey360
I'm from Canada, I drove through Kentucky to mammoth caves, it was a completely different world. People were friendly though.
JayEnfield
As another Canadian, I had never been told "Fuck off, cracker" by a stranger before I went to the southeast USA.
SodaSamtg
In small towns or rural America their aren't jobs to be had.
isaydefy
It's cause menial jobs, the ones most people used to work at, just don't exist anymore. Farming, mining, factory jobs. Yeah they still 1/2
isaydefy
Exist, but not as many as there used to be. As automation improves they may disappear entirely. What to do then? Can't go back in time.
iusedtobealurkerbutimadeanaccount
The perplexing thing is these are the people most against Bernie. In my experience at least...
RobertNAdams
Because (as I understand it) they want the opportunity to work, not a handout. Different culture.
IssacOppenheimer
For everyone in favor of assistance programs, I know of zero people who advocate handouts to lazy spoiled entitled people.
feeltheice
You'd be correct
xthetenth
And all they get is exploited.
RobertNAdams
Yeah, no shit. The Dems need to address this in future if they want a chance at winning any red states. Provide opportunities, you know? (1)
RobertNAdams
Or even make the effort to SAY that you will TRY. (2/2)
guactopus
I recently read an article about people in poor, rural areas who want the minimum wage increased and yet still voted Trump, who nominated
FantabulousMan
Its because abortions are bad and muslims are scary.
guactopus
someone very opposed to that idea to be the head of the Dept. of Labor. Thankfully he withdrew his candidacy.
guactopus
http://money.cnn.com/2017/02/14/news/economy/donald-trump-minimum-wage/
MrPredator
People who push individuals to go to college and make it sound like a college diploma is the golden fucking ticket to job land annoy me.
DecepticonMoonsinger
My mom says that and I don't have a job and I have 1 college credit
pizzapartyhard
Well that's what every millennial was told...
ShinyAsChrome
I feel that many parents, like mine, do this because they dont actually know how to help their children succeed.
malign
To be fair, nowadays employers demand a uni/college diploma even for menial clerical jobs. I dunno why but it's always there. 1/2
malign
Oh, and 3-5 years of experience. 2/2
bumblefffffuuuu
College dropout here. I'm grateful as hell to have left that path with no debt, but yeah. Fuck telling everybody they need college.
crookednixon
It's as close as we got.
whooguyy
As someone who has interviewed people for my company. We look for using your college skills in your life. A good worker lives their degree
Mechlai
as someone who has been laid off of at least 7 jobs in the last 7 years, the fact you have a diploma can get you hired at a minwage place.
Mechlai
not sure how you get those fancy "real" jobs people are always talking about. I mean, houses exist. people who can afford them live in 1/2
Mechlai
them. They usually have vehicles in their driveways. seems like theres something everyone else knows that I don't. I just wanna be normal
NeoClassicalMetal
I'm making pretty good money and I don't understand how people afford that all and still manage to squirrel some away
dukebound85
It is though if you get a worthwhile degree
lawlphailure
I have an associates in accounting. They still want 5 years experience for Entry.
dukebound85
I dunno man. I have a bs in engineering and had 15 job offers when I graduated
scnottaken
BS chemistry here. Most wanted experience, but got a crap job paying $13/hr in Cali. After student loan payments, might as well have been
TheatreStreet
Where jobs grow on job trees called jobbies.
hks003
The people that ignore parents/others when they tell them not to get a liberal arts degree, do something in STEM then complain about 1/?
hks003
Not being able to find a job with their degree in 18th century literature with a minor in play writing annoy me. If you want a degree in 2/?
hks003
Something you're interested in, fine. But don't blame anyone except yourself when your degree doesn't line up with current job market 3/?
hks003
Demands. It's far too easy to go to a job search site and see who's hiring for what kind of jobs. 4/4
CephalopodLodge4
No no, not a diploma, a better job. For example 15 an hour at mcds leads to machines doing it. Instead work towards being a manager
laddeao
How does that way of thinking work? Not everyone can be a manager. Making the minimum wage livable is the only thing that makes sense.
Thornaxe
Sure. Now how do we define liveable? Current gen has way more amenities than previous, despite less "buying power"
CephalopodLodge4
Making the minimum wage anything over the price to build and maintain robots that do the same job, 24/7, without breaks or mistakes is dumb
itiswhatitisuntilitaint
I got a degree in accounting. Had a job coming out of college. Pays pretty well. Worked for me.
thatguywhoisnttoowitty
Yeah, I hate them too. Job land requires a passport as well.
iaminfiniteOSL
I mean... if you pick something that leads into a field with a large demand and low supply...you
Heavymettle
Truckers and Nursing are probably highest demand atm and you don't need college for one of those.
slimstebow
But telling someone to make that decision when 3 months prior they had to ask permission to take a pee is kind of a problem
Starcatcher1986
No, they make that decision while they still have to ask permission to pee.
lawlphailure
I have an associates in accounting and I can tell you that no degree will give you the 5 years they want for entry level.
iaminfiniteOSL
're going to find work? ...
Solivoid
Regardless of the socialist agenda, I like the message in this one:
Solivoid
https://i.reddituploads.com/57fb4de5ef7546b38ec65b96ff529ff5?fit=max&h=1536&w=1536&s=df68e0eeee8b582884f75b1bd0d38291
fencerman
Those fields change on a monthly basis, but it takes years to get a degree.
quitch
Source on the "monthly basis" thing? I'm fairly certain most markets do not change that fast.
fencerman
Those fields change on a monthly basis, but it takes years to get a degree.
kholli
There are other factors at work though. A lot of employers only want to hire new grads for part time.
quitch
1. Get hired part time. 2. Work for six months part time. 3. Get a full job now that you have half a year experience, and references.
airen
Majored in chinese am now qa engineer whose your god now
CloakerJosh
No one who works a fulltime week, no matter what the job, deserves to be in poverty. Well, nearly no one actually deserves poverty, in truth
srm12722
Dude I work 50 to 60 a week and still struggle to pay rent and shit
HelloMax
sounds like you need to find a way to get rid of the person who's keeping you there by pointing a gun to your head. then you'd have options
BootsCatsBeeeeeeez
I've a FT job that I love with "amazing benefits" for a long time. Still can't afford things like surgery ($1500 deductible) make $8.40/hr.
exponant
A physician I know says that the worker who conscientiously, and diligently cleans the rest rooms does more for health care than he does.
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notme222
You're shouting into the wind here. Most people in this world work to improve their life. The rest come to Imgur to rage about it.
TheCouncilofRicks
Yes some people have it easier, but that doesn't mean you can't be successful. I was born into poverty but I worked my ass off and it paid
INeverThoughtIdMakeThisAccount
There are plenty of people with the same story as you, minus the last part.
reineseele
What about bank managers who burn/win billions/millions every week?
MrSisterFister
What about them?
DaedaIus
What if I camwhore for 10 hours a day to an empty room because no one wants to see me?
SnugglasaurasRex
What you deserve and what you get are 2 very different things.
CloakerJosh
Very, very true.
Treyceratops
The working class of America right now deserve more.
CloakerJosh
Exactly. The working class of everywhere deserve security and safety. If not, then what's even the point of society?
YallNeedMises
Subjective theory of value, bro. People have to actually want what you produce, and the price they will pay indicates how much they want it.
imapersonandmynameisanakin
You should look into the economic theory of Universal Basic Income
notme222
Here's a podcast with 2 economists discussing the idea, for the curious: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/01/michael_munger_3.html
CloakerJosh
I have, and I'm an advocate.
yerd
This. 100%.
Elroydb
The concept of a negative income tax has been around for a while and would be much more efficient to implement
imapersonandmynameisanakin
That's an interesting concept though it still requires a paycheck. I like UBI because it helps folks who can't work as well
Elroydb
This is true. I'm not opposed to the idea but it needs to be implemented in small amounts over time to help its chance at success
dxd2
What if you have 6 kids? A single person working 40 hours min wage is not in poverty.
bumblefffffuuuu
Heyo! Someone's got the right idea. Don't pump out humans like hotcakes (or at all) and you shouldn't have trouble paying the bills.
pudf
Well, at least you had sex 6 times, which, on this site, makes you relatively wealthy in that currency.
skiracechamp
You deserve poverty if you are an able bodied person who refuses to get a job. I know this is a small minority of the impoverished.
Zak57TR
Thank you for realizing that it's a minority of the population.
leodavinci1
I suspect that minority is not as small as many think it is. Know too many people who simply won't work; who won't do particular 1 of ?
leodavinci1
kinds of work; and who won't (not can't) learn something new to do a job. Was a graphic artist during the advent of the desktop 2 of ?
leodavinci1
publishing revolution. Saw many artists leave the field because they didn't want to learn to use computers. I learned & kept working. 3 of 3
CloakerJosh
Hence my use of the word "nearly". Conversely, you don't deserve poverty if you want to work and can't get employment.
Iamnotarobot094825382
I've had to do a lot of shit jobs before I got to this job that I don't particularly like but isn't terrible either.
leodavinci1
Well, there's wanting to work and then there's being willing to do what's necessary. I know people who only want to do particular work.
BranOfTheNorth
You mean the people who don't want to work those jobs that don't pay a living wage that OP was talking about?
OmNachoMama
I have a friend who used to making big money in tech consulting. Lost his job. Offered a new one for 2/3 pay because market changed.
Elroydb
It is PRODUCTIVITY. If the job you do don't physically raise enough revenue to pay for a higher salary it ain't gonna happen
exponant
Some productivity is hidden though. The cleaning lady at the train station does a lot to keep health care costs down.
Elroydb
You can still establish a metric to approximate the value of that person's labor to the company. If cleanliness of facilities is a drawing
Elroydb
point then you will pay your staff the value they bring you. If you don't you'll be punished by lower revenues
CloakerJosh
Not everything can be linked to profits, though...?! Teachers, crossing guards, government workers - these, and hundreds more, only cost 1/
CloakerJosh
This is a bizarre statement. I can literally think of hundreds of jobs that are pure expense with no profit. Doesn't mean that we 1/
CloakerJosh
A) don't need them of B) the workers of them don't deserve a fair wage. Did you think this one through? 2/2
ImmortanJimBob
Look at the ratio of productivity to compensation over the last 40 years and get back to us.
Elroydb
Then you look at purchasing power to dollar you'll find you can afford more. Green pieces of paper are worthless unless you can buy things
Elroydb
with them. If wages are reduced 25% and cost of goods by 50% you are much more wealthier than before
ImmortanJimBob
Oh, so I can put myself through college and buy a house with a summer job now, or are you talking about incidentals like computers?
Mydogbrowsesimgur
Digging ditches or any other zero skill job doesn't deserveas much a a skilled worker. If you want better you must work harder.
CloakerJosh
FYI, I don't know if you've ever dug a ditch, but it's fucking hard. Much harder than what I get paid a lot more to do.
Mydogbrowsesimgur
Yes I have I did manual labor for six months and said fuck this and went to school. I have no sympathy for someone that keeps a shit job
AnnieBahde
That's. it the argument. We need ditches dug. That is necessary work and someone who does an honest day's work shouldn't live in poverty.
notme222
We should drop the word "hard". I can carry rocks in a circle all day. It's hard. Doesn't guarantee anyone's paying me living wage for it.
AnnieBahde
Sorry for the typo, I'm on a phone. I meant to say "that's not the argument" - no one is saying all jobs should be paid equally.
DenounceAll
No one deserves anything...
pudf
How about: everyone deserves just what they really think they deserve?
StrayLilCat
So you don't believe people deserve fundamental rights?
DenounceAll
Fundamental, inalienable natural rights are just that, natural. You do not deserve them and are not given them. They merely exist 1/2
DenounceAll
the advancement of, protection of, and insurance of natural rights for all (which should be the sole purpose of gov't) is not the same
DenounceAll
Not the same as the demanding of goods and services for no compensation, collected and distributed by the authority of the state.
DenounceAll
Im speaking to the T.A.N.S.T.A.A.F.L. Fallacy. You don't deserve the free results of the fruits of anyone else's labor or endeavors.
FreshWater13
why tho? just because?
YallNeedMises
Because it's a claim on someone else's labor. If you want others to provide for your needs & desires, but you must first appeal to theirs.
DenounceAll
This person gets it!
Treyceratops
What? I didn't choose to be alive. So now I just get thrown in this world and get shafted because I wasn't born in a rich family?(1/2)
Treyceratops
Not an "awful" standard of living, but it definitely should be much better.
Treyceratops
Because I don't have that luxury I don't get as good healthcare, education, and have an awful standard of living. Born working class? Tough
DenounceAll
I would love to teach you more about this but I hate communicating in this format. Look up the "T.A.N.S.T.A.A.F.L Fallacy" and read
DenounceAll
A good Robert Heinlein book. I'd say start with Moon is a Harsh Mistress or maybe Stranger in a Strange Land
Treyceratops
Not once did I say anything was free. Just because I want a system that creates free college education and healthcare doesn't mean I (1/2)
DenounceAll
Entitlement is dangerous. Believing you deserve anything from another is an entitled belief. And no one asked to be alive, the fact that 1/X
DenounceAll
You think you're special or deserve something because "you didn't ask to be here" is just laughable. But also dangerous
Treyceratops
Wanting access to more affordable college education and healthcare is not entitled and dangerous, it's perfectly reasonable.
Treyceratops
In fact, you thinking that is entitlement and dangerous is a perfect example of how America has pitted it's own working class against itself
GloatingGoats
I know people who work full time but can't afford food but mainly because it's poor money management :/
PaperCl1p
This. I know a guy that raised a family of 6 on 30k a year without welfare. It's all about money management
HugoGonzlez
Yeah, some people like prostitutes.
CloakerJosh
Well, that definitely exists as well. I'm not referring to that, though.
Ravben
I finally gave my receptionist a raise, see she's now constantly buying junk from Amazon (she uses the business prime account w/ her card).
Ravben
Which wouldn't be a problem but she was complaining of money problems hence the raise. Hopefully she's saving too.
CloakerJosh
Hopefully you're not using your anecdotal experience as an example for the entire economic model, though?
Ravben
Not at all in fact I'm hard left. But I see the Imgur pitchforks came out as per usual with swift judgement.
Ravben
My comment was intended to be purely antecdotal in response to the above. In fact I take a pretty solid hit to pay my people well. They all
Ravben
Another thing... I can't even afford to spend like she does. And supposedly she was having tough times.. purely antecdotal frustration and
Ravben
the downvotes just kind of got to me because I know people just assume I'm rich and greedy because I own a business.
Treyceratops
Sure they may have poor money management. It still doesn't excuse that the working class in this country aren't getting their fair share.
leodavinci1
What's "fair"... and who gets to define it... and what legitimizes that definition? They word is essentially meaningless.
Treyceratops
That's why politics is difficult. Everyone has to come to their own conclusions and hope it's the "right" and "fair" one.
Treyceratops
I happen to believe what benefits humanity and promotes progress as being "right," and I've come to the conclusion that the people in pow
WarmCigarette
GDP growth compared to worker's compensation? seems pretty obvious tbh
Herathyon
That's not how an economy works.
bumblefffffuuuu
You're not taking into account how much of the GDP growth/productivity is due to machine improvement and not increase in human labor.
JohnAmmerman
Lets put all the responsibility on the business and none on the person for having to live within their means. Thats so cute.
CloakerJosh
Who said anything about all that noise? Fulltime workers being eligible for food stamps gives you an idea of the problems I'm talking about.
leodavinci1
Most full-time workers aren't on/need food stamps... that's the noise being bandied about. Isolated anecdotes being held up as the norm.
Zak57TR
Oh, maybe restrict people's purchases based on their income!? That sounds like a republican thing, the restriction of civil liberty!
JohnAmmerman
Expecting others to cover your decisions sounds like a Democrat thing
GatoGateaux
Assuming that everyone who isn't a Republican is looking for handouts sounds like a Republican thing.
JohnAmmerman
Not all humans are males but all males are human. Not all dems are looking for handouts but most i know looking for handout are dems
JohnAmmerman
You have the liberty to spend what you want and the liberty to earn. Hopefully you have enough common sense to only soend what you earn
Amythyst
Sooo for someone who can afford two out of three between rent, food, and utilities, what should they give up? Home? Power and water? Food?
user563235
3 kids and other one coming, fancy stuffs, cars, restaurants ... Sometimes, financial poverty is self inflicted.
INeverThoughtIdMakeThisAccount
The other thing to think of though is that it's not enough to make sure that basics are covered. What sort of quality of life does a person
INeverThoughtIdMakeThisAccount
have if they can never afford anything other than work? Not to disagree with your sentiment because I 100% think people should only get into
INeverThoughtIdMakeThisAccount
situations like children and large purchases that they can afford, but there needs to be a middle ground.
CloakerJosh
Absolutely. Whatever your beliefs in deity or otherwise, humans deserve happiness and fulfillment. Living to work alone isn't that.
CloakerJosh
I understand, but this is not being debated. Keep to scope: Fulltime workers that can't afford essentials due to basic cost of living.
user563235
The point is, consumerism is the problem. If one can't afford essentials with a full time job,them maybe we're living a life we can't afford
CloakerJosh
Consumerism is definitely one part of a multifaceted economic issue. But Consumerism creates jobs. Without buyers, there's less sellers. 1/
CloakerJosh
Setting that aside though, keep it simple. Do you think a full time worker should be paid enough to raise a small family on basics?
BranOfTheNorth
Uhh or maybe you literally can't afford basic room and board while working full time. Which is what OP is talking about.
SpankyButtSniff
So if I'm a high school kid I can drop out and go work 40 hours at a taco Bell and I should be able to buy a house?
thesixthcourier
You mean like all sorts of baby boomers and early Gen Xers did?
remycrane
I actually think so. Maybe not a nice big house, but yes, I think you should be able to buy a house.
ScherezadeJones
Or at least be able to afford housing.
CloakerJosh
Pretty much, yes. A basic home that you can live in. Nothing fancy, buy why shouldn't people be able to live their life if they work hard?
SpankyButtSniff
Because it isn't hard work.
leodavinci1
Because the universe doesn't work that way.
SpankyButtSniff
This is bs, nobody would seek higher education if working 40hrs/week at a movie theater was lucrative. Shit job=shit life, that's reality.
brandon82646
I don't believe that. You just have a very low opinion of people. And there's no reason anyone should have a "shit life".
CloakerJosh
Well, actually, that's where you're wrong. If I could earn the same money as a gas station attendant as I could being an analyst, I still 1/
CloakerJosh
wouldn't do it. I need to be mentally stimulated. Some people do, some people don't. But we all need to eat.
imadisobedientavocado
Sorry, but this is bullshit
TrijezniMujo
How's it being an analyst :'( .... -am a gas station attendant whilst working through college to become a form of analyst
CloakerJosh
Stressful, but satisfying. Not in the field I want to be in, but it's a gig and it's stimulating.
SpankyButtSniff
You are lying to yourself if you think the world would run on equal pay and hoping people still want to be doctors.
CloakerJosh
Well honestly, equal pay for all jobs is a whole other thing that I'm not going to get into. But, I was simply illustrating a point: job 1/
thesixthcourier
He's talking more about a universal BASE income than equal pay. So every body gets essentials, and skilled labor gets you to luxuries.