doverhavens
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So I made the unfortunate mistake of browsing the Book of Faces, and came upon this delightful video via .Mic
It used a clickbait title: "Are all white people racist? Yes"
As a white male, I decided to check this out.
He actually doesn't call White people racist, but rather indicates that every human has an automatic preference to a race; dependent on culture and social norms.
But then he decided to talk about the Harvard IAT test (Implicit Association Test) and how it can tell you if you are biased toward a certain race.
He made some great points, but the IAT is flawed, and I'll explain why...
For anyone who hasn't taken the IAT, this is why it's a flawed test...
The IAT tries to decided what your "automatic racial preference" is by telling you to click the "E" on the key board when you see a picture of a Caucasian person, and the "I" key when you see a picture of an African American.
After successfully identifying around 10-20 pictures, they then assign the "E" key to be "Good", and the "I" key to be bad. You then have about 10-20 words to categorize based on their positive or negative nature (e.g. Love, rude, disgust, triumph...etc)
One you have completed the task of correctly categorizing the words, they ask you to categorize both the positive/negative words along with the pictures of the humans base on race.
This is where the problem sets in.
They have conditioned you to use your left hand ("E") to be assigned to positive words and "white" humans; and the right hand "I" to be negative words and "black" humans.
The reason that's a problem is because they then, after 15 mins of conditioning you, switch which hand that categorizes the pictures of the humans.
If you hesitate to remember that your hands have switched, they consider that your hesitation toward that race.
The best scenario I can relate this flaw to is the Stroop Test...
I'm sure we've all had a good laugh with our friends trying to correctly say the word while our brains have a panic attack because the hue isn't the same.
This is the Stroop Effect.
The Stroop effect is the finding that naming the colors of color words (e.g. the words 'green', 'red', 'blue', etc.) is easier and quicker if the actual observed colors of the words match the colors that the words denote (e.g. the colors green, red, blue, etc., respectively) than if they do not match.
The IAC works similarly by depending on Speed Processing, but what they don't account for is the natural phenomenon of Selective Attention Theory. Once our brains have "mastered" a function it stops micromanaging (kind of like being on auto-pilot while doing a task you've been doing for long periods of time).
So please, remember that this is a flawed test...and I'm simply astounded that Harvard would be ok with this.
Tl;dr : seriously, read it.
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EDIT: Many people are bringing up the fact that if you re-take the test, the order of the "Good" or "Bad" vary/start differently.
THAT DOES NOT MATTER.
The reason it is flawed is because the outcome of the test is based solely on how quickly you can overcome your conditioned motor reflexes.
Also, this is not my way of trying to "prove I'm not racist." I agree with the guy in the video, we all have a racial biased and I have my own issues; same as everyone else.
...and yes, incognito mode; for porn. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LAST EDIT...
@RaisinZetaJones did his own bit of research and had this to say...
"You might want to mention that the creator [of the IAT] acknowledged the very problem you identified, and noted it takes -----40 trial runs----- over a period of weeks------ to eliminate the ordering artifact. I cited it all for you: http://imgur.com/gallery/eAd11/comment/968206229.
This directly contradicts the claim made on the IAT's own website here: "One very common question is about the order of the parts of the IAT. The answer is yes, the order in which you take the test can influence on your overall results. But, the effect is very small. So if you first pair African American (or Black people) + bad and then pair African American (or Black people) + good, your results might be a just a tiny bit more negative than they would be if you had done the reverse pairing first."
...You might also want to cite the part where in the Mic video the speaker claims that racial bias is learned. Specifically, at 0:45 seconds to 0:48 seconds, he says "But they aren't born with prejudice, but it's something we learn."
In fact, the IAT directly contradicts that statement as well: "The notion that children are born without preferences toward groups and acquire them as a result of being in a prejudiced culture is naïve. Frances Aboud showed that children explicitly express negative attitudes toward outgroups. We showed that 6 yr old, 10 yr old and adult Whites show the same level of automatic preference for their ingroup. What changes over time is the lowering of explicitly expressed preferences, with 6 yr olds reporting the strongest ingroup preference, 10 yr olds more moderate preference, and adults reporting the least of all. See Baron & Banaji, 2006; Dunham, Baron, & Banaji, in press."
In other words, the Mic video does the following:
-Misrepresents the IAT to suit their narrative, treating it as flawless when the creators admit it is deeply flawed, especially in ordering, and requires substantial controls
-Directly contradicts the IAT regarding children/learned experience (IAT claims racial prejudice is in-born and the idea that children are born without it is naive) when it suits their narrative
-Switches between suppressing its conclusions and supporting them dependent on how it fits the narrative
...
If you say things like "It often reveals an automatic preference for light-skin relative to dark-skin" before the test, it's going to have a huge effect on the stimulus-response questions. You are putting people in an operating condition where "light - good / dark - bad" is already in their mind before the trial. This is going to, 100%, influence the outcome.
The most glaring problem, then, is the it isn't a blind test. Information is given before hand. That's actually probably it's single greatest methodological flaw.
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(HOW ABOUT A MASSIVE ROUND OF APPLAUSE FOR THIS BRILLIANT HUMAN BEING!
There was so much more that @RaisinZetaJones pointed out about the IAT, and I welcome all of you to reach out to him and ask. Send a complimentary upvote his way while you're at it!)
OP, out
AllYourBaconAndEggs
Damn, you should tell Harvard about this. I'm sure they haven't heard of year things and didn't control for them.
Locolarue
Forward caste vs. Scheduled Caste? Can someone explain?
Coperstein
Funny, the Stroop Test didn't work for me because English is not my fist language.
hadadrumstickandmybrainisstillstuck
Stroop kid is afraid to leave the stroop!
venalpha
He says that we're all racists, but HE'S not actually racist https://youtu.be/oJfbKj1vYsQ?t=135
Kyrorayne
I kind of "cheat " for the Stroop effect test. I unfocus my eyes and only see blocks of color
Cheesecakecrush
Harvard is just a super-expensive, high entry level fever swamp now.
MoreLikeLawlSchool
What are you even trying to say?
MoreLikeLawlSchool
What are you even trying to say?
DylDaddy
What happens if I only press the "i" key? What now science?
doverhavens
You will break the internets
Bystandr
Look up things on bias and impartiality and its quickly seen that its very hard not to have some kind of bias about pretty much anything.
Bystandr
Racism is more than an issue of society. We all have to fight it if we are to mitigate the negative effects. Including fighting ourselves.
DickwadMcDucking
Can you post a link to this test OP? I wanna try it out.
eagleandy93
So there is a scientific reason I autopilot my way home from work everyday?
FernandoRumdebum
Wait, the stroop test, am I supposed to find it difficult to say the word or colour ? I could say the word NP, the colour tripped me up 1/
FernandoRumdebum
2/ because you instinctively read the word while trying to identify the colour
sadleric
You are completely off on this allegation. Go and actually read the debriefing in the test.
doverhavens
My hypothesis has actually been proven to be right by the creator of the test. See latest edit
Sapphirewolf
This is just evidence of you trying to hide your racism. /sarc
webcamtarantula
The saddest part is that there comments here saying exactly that. Imgur is weird like that.
doverhavens
Lolz
Soigotthatgoingformewhichisnice
This is insane, I had this exact talk with my wife a few weeks ago, after coming across the same video. Forging associations in the brain
Soigotthatgoingformewhichisnice
Prior to administering the testing part is silly, and makes the data it gives incorrect, I am so glad I'm not alone! High five @op !!
doverhavens
universalcode
THINK FOR YOURSELF: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/iatdetails.html Try reading about the test before agreeing with OP.
RaisinZetaJones
Here's a paper authored by the creator of the IAT saying it takes 40 runs to eliminate the ordering effect
troubledanthropomorphichorse
This is misleading. Trial runs refers to the number of questions in a block, not number of tests. The effect is small (~0.08) for 20 trials.
RaisinZetaJones
"THINK FOR YOURSELF" indeed. Though try reading the IAT creator's own words before agreeing with people like @universalcode.
universalcode
The racial associations with E and I change multiple times during the test, and will appear in different order if you take it again.
mywutangnameisarrogantambassador
That is correct. Sometimes the black and good combo will start out together.
RaisinZetaJones
Which has been shown to give the tests major artifacts in consistency, as documented by the creator of the IAT, that can only be
RaisinZetaJones
statistically eliminated by running 40 practice trials over multiple weeks in advance. Oops. They don't *quite* mention that part.
troubledanthropomorphichorse
This is misleading. Trial runs refers to the number of questions in a block, not number of tests. The effect is small (~0.08) for 20 trials.
troubledanthropomorphichorse
If you read the article it clearly states that multiple runs were done weeks apart to administer tests with a different number of trials.
Killrapture
Ok op has a point, seems like an important part of this was missed though, still good to be skeptical though
doverhavens
Absolutely! Never stop questioning.
MasterMaker
The Stroop effect is in it self biased/flawed as it is only real below a certain intelligence/ability to focus
MasterMaker
If ones intelligence/ability to focus is sufficient then it is a non effect.
RaisinZetaJones
Nonsense. The Stroop effect is a measure of interference. People can (and do) read the colored words of color names flawlessly. However, the
RaisinZetaJones
reaction time -- what is being measured -- drops. The Stroop effect isn't used to measure how many words the person gets wrong, but how much
RaisinZetaJones
longer it takes to cognitively process a stimulus with an interfering stimulus.
DonnaNobleInTheLibrary
@op: Links to the video and test, please?
Cerinna
A lot of people in my country are age-ist as fuck. Apparently people my age can't work hard. This is people my mom's age telling me that.
AkodoSturm
Multiple problems with the test and your hypothesis. How big is the biased effect really? How much more, in %, racist become you by this. 1/
RaisinZetaJones
The biased effect is massive. The IAT has an internal consistency of around .50 (very weak). It shows a profound effect on results when
RaisinZetaJones
ordering is changed (
) to the point it takes 40 trial runs to make the effect statistically negligible.
AkodoSturm
And who is affected by how much? Many test are made with the help of psychology students as testers. So they are more trained to make them
AkodoSturm
And have they have a smaller bias. While someone knew or less educated will have a bigger bias.
Fatherdoodle
Whatchu trying to hide using the porno mode on safari?
doverhavens
The internet is for porn!
MERGATROYDER
Just read that stroop test flawlessly. Is something wrong with me?
doverhavens
Yes ;)
uzerok
You're not alone, since the test is used wrong. You need to read the colours while you're conditioned to read the words and ignore colour.
uzerok
This is opposed to someone who can't read the or doesn't understand English. They would find it incredibly easy to name the colours.
jetenculeavecuncactus
stroop test is actually naming the colors, not reading the text
MERGATROYDER
Yupp. Had zero issues with it. Did it backwards to see if it would stump me and I think it was easier.
AndrsRios
Call the president for a medal
MERGATROYDER
I'd rather not hear him tell me at least four times, how much better he did it.
Kewra
????
HansyDoodleStinkyPoodle
Same. It's easier for me to read the written word than trying to say the hue of the word.
RequireMoreVespeneGas
Me too, I am honestly curious as to what that means, and no I am not color blind.
Aquatic02
No, I did it as well.
periwinklepanda
I did too
Flixster
Same here. The real challenge would be if you were instructed to name the colors of each word, not to just read the words, which is easy.1/2
GreaterDog
Can I just squint really hard?
Kewra
I think the test is to say the colours and not the words
FromDenmarkWithHate
It is. @OP is mistaken.
Flixster
I blazed through reading the words, but when naming the colors the words tripped me up. I kept wanting to read.
OPdoesnotknowhowtoimgur
Me too, BUT, squint while doing this so you can't clearly see the words, and then I can say the colour of the words no problem.
troubledanthropomorphichorse
I just took this test and your description is misleading. The African/Good association came up first (prob. random) and it tests both ways.
troubledanthropomorphichorse
I'm pretty confident that a study like this from a reputable institution like Harvard is going to control for the thing you're claiming.
troubledanthropomorphichorse
In other words: damn, white people will go to great lengths to try to explain why they aren't actually racist.
SIrEvilMustache
@OP ?
doverhavens
Regardless of the order, they condition your motor reflexes and then base your outcome on how fast you can switch them. 1/2
doverhavens
That's what's upsetting. I'm not trying to go to great lengths to say I'm not racist. I have my issues, same as everyone else. 2/2
troubledanthropomorphichorse
At the end: "The answer is yes, the order in which you take the test can influence on your overall results. But, the effect is very small."
RaisinZetaJones
Riiiiight. The creators of the IAT only had to publish an article in which they demonstrated it took 40 trial runs to eliminate the effect.
RaisinZetaJones
Source:
-- Sorry, who's misleading? You meant OP, but i think it's you!
troubledanthropomorphichorse
Why did you (conveniently?) cut off the x-axis label on that graph? It clearly states that trials are in a single block, not multiple tests.
troubledanthropomorphichorse
Trials refers to the number of questions in each block, not the tests the person takes. The effect is ~0.08 for the Black-White test at 20.
troubledanthropomorphichorse
Source: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~banaji/research/publications/articles/2005_Nosek_PSPB.pdf (177-178)
Prosecutrixxx
Did you actually read the research behind it or did you just look at it and get pissed cause it suggested you have racial biases?
doverhavens
A good question, and yes I did. I'm more astounded that they base the outcome off how quickly you can overcome a conditioned motor reflex.
webcamtarantula
Yeah OP you can't possibly be educated on this topic you MUST be a racist /s
RaisinZetaJones
What, this research:
-- The one where it blatantly says the ordering effect is strong artifact that takes 40
RaisinZetaJones
trial runs to overcome, and is an article written by the creator of the IAT? Or some other "research behind it"? Or did you just look at OPs
troubledanthropomorphichorse
This is misleading. Trial runs refers to the number of questions in a block, not number of tests. The effect is small (~0.08) for 20 trials.
RaisinZetaJones
post and get pissed cause it suggested your arrogance and belief that you control the universe isn't real?
BouncyCoder
Very astute observation, and well explained. Why does Harvard back it? If you want to understand any system analyze the incentives.
Jakedelholmes
I wonder if OP would have made this "astute observation" had the races been reversed. It's a known fact the only racist people are black..
sadleric
Sometimes it starts black and good, E and I change as you take and retake the test, but hey, one guy's post is stronger than science amrite?
RaisinZetaJones
The IAT has low consistency and a test-retest factor of .6 -- that's a fucking joke.
alonewolfcub
Here's an interesting article on this test http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-tool-isnt-up-to-the-job.html
bigbrothersbinary
If it's similar to my school. There is often political organisations within school that get funding from the school and push their own agend
BouncyCoder
I'm sorry to hear that. Be strong. Don't hate. Be respectful. Honor other opinions, but speak your mind unapologetically.
bigbrothersbinary
Or do like my friends and undermine the first electronic election by submitting 200k fake ballots for Harambe in protest of its existence...
BouncyCoder
It wasn't all of us.
BouncyCoder
You're a Brit! My best friend lives in London. I can tell by s instead of z. Fantastic! I love you guys. Sorry about the bust of Churchill.
AstuteObservationsOfAnADDKid
Sorry the username is taken @doverhavens
Aardvarksneedlove
Maybe it's less about Harvard backing it & more where it was developed.I'm not sure how proud the people of Bristol are of their stool chart
BouncyCoder
I am not immediately aware of a stool chart, but it sounds like something I might be hesitant to put on a job application under "experience"
Mimsey
Because the Humanities at modern unis are run by SJWs. These people are the sources for the crazy shit Tumblrettes spout.
djethex
I'm curious what evidence you can share that would support this sentiment?
troubledanthropomorphichorse
Read the last page of the debriefing if you take the test. It specifically explains how the ordering is accounted for.
RaisinZetaJones
It's still subject to large amounts of interference and attentional resource attenuation. Don't even get me started on its language-based
RaisinZetaJones
associations of good and bad particularly favoring right-handed responses due to Wernicke's area being left-hemisphere cortical asymmetry.
universalcode
Yeah, OP is way off base with this allegation. Just completely wrong, in fact.
DumpoldRant
But hey, any opportunity for us white people to circlejerk how smart and not racist we are compared to those Harvard elitist liberals.
RaisinZetaJones
1/ Also, still bullshit:
-- That is page 178 of the Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin (31) 2, 2005.
ElbowDeepInAPoliceState
Are you supporting @op or not, I'm confused
RaisinZetaJones
2/ What you are looking at is a measured demonstration of the IAT's internal consistency. You'll note it hovers are around .50 -- that, for
RaisinZetaJones
3/ those who don't know, is politely called "weak" and properly called "a fucking joke". It's an admission that contrary to what these posts
RaisinZetaJones
4/ by @troubledanthropomorphichorse and @universalcode claim, ordering has a HUGE effect on outcome, as @OP claims. The solution to this was
doverhavens
Thank You! I honestly don't know, but as you can see they use this formula for a multitude of biased tests.
troubledanthropomorphichorse
The tests randomly assign the order in an attempt to reduce that bias. It's explained in the debriefing at the end that you didn't read.
BouncyCoder
Good questions are often more interesting than the answers.
equityforpunks
I recently thought contacting them about this obvious bias, as Ive PhD, but.. social studies are so biased that they'll just think Im biased
BouncyCoder
Too much bias for bias? Cowards?
BouncyCoder
Also nice to get a reply that's not "fuck you," so thanks back.
aussieconvict
I ran across this a while ago but came across bias in it from a different perspective. My responses were quickest when "black" and "bad" 1/3
aussieconvict
were on the same key simply due to my brain associating any "b" word with that key (regardless of which key it was on). 2/3
aussieconvict
They seemed thankful for the feedback I sent them about it.
sadleric
Seeing as you are replying to comments, have you considered reading the debriefing at the end of the test accounting for order?
doverhavens
I have, and it proves my theory that it's flawed. Regardless of which comes first (good or bad) they test you 3 separate times with 1/n
doverhavens
3/n, then they switch it up for the fourth test...so of course there is going to be hesitation. They've purposefully created a test that ...
doverhavens
4/4, forces you to stumble.
doverhavens
2/n, E in one hand, and I in the other. That's 3 times you've created neuro paths and start to get comfortable
sadleric
" Regardless of which comes first (good or bad) they test you 3 separate times with"
BouncyCoder
I would think that many people would also try to avoid bias when taking the test which could skew it the other way. Maybe? So subjective.
doverhavens
Absolutely! There's no way of avoiding that unless it were a blind test, but even then the subject would figure it out within mins.
BouncyCoder
The test sounds like it may have been designed to illicit a prescribed outcome which makes it scientifically, if not politically, useless.
Kewra
Elicit? Not illegal?
BouncyCoder
So, given the scientific method, the test does not answer the research query and must be redesigned to gather valid data. Makes sense.
doverhavens
You're absolutely right. Idk why you were downvoted.
deccusation
Yeah I took the test then quickly realized what's up... very annoying. The idea is "you hit E when you dislike something so if we show 1/n
deccusation
One might associate with racism 'I don't like that black man' your brain will instinctively hit the 'bad' button. Conclusion: you 2/n
gingerbrdman
Everyone has bias. The more someone insists they don't, the worse the situation tends to be in my experience.
doverhavens
I agree
webcamtarantula
So you don't think it's possible to look at anything from an objective standpoint? What about degrees of bias?
gingerbrdman
There are def degrees I just meant nobody is walking around completely devoid of bias. Well maybe some very specific kind of sociopath? Idk
Mimsey
This is dangerously close to the logic used by authoritarian regimes and religious cults: [1]
gingerbrdman
I work in law enforcement (important context). I'm not so much making a logical argument as identifying an abysmal and toxic lack of [1]
gingerbrdman
self-awareness among too many people. And the people denying they have any bias loudly, even belligerently, are usually the worst examples.
Mimsey
"Everyone sins. The more you insist you don't the worse you are." And then THEY decide what's a sin, why it's a sin, and how to fix it. [2]
Mimsey
Which always, ALWAYS serves the regime or the cult in the end. And fucks over the individuals. [3]
Mimsey
I haven't read Animal Farm in years, but I swear the pigs apply this same approach to their critics. [4]
Coykoi23518
You could easily take the test multiple times to disprove this as the test is in random order. I know I have a preference for whites over 1
Coykoi23518
blacks. Not that I am racist or anything but my default black person is someone who listens to rap and grew up in a poor neighborhood 2
Coykoi23518
However, I don't think this test actually discovered that legitimately. Most of my mistakes were based on patterns and not because
Coykoi23518
I was associating the two different groups. I took my time and clearly read the word or looked at the picture each time.
doverhavens
see edit
Coykoi23518
The motor reflex is what they are testing. The test is saying that your natural motor reflexes between race and description will prove 1
Coykoi23518
That it is easier for you to go from one race to one description than the same race to opposite description. 2
doverhavens
I realize that, but the way the test is given creates a forced outcome; especially since 75% of the test is conditioning you.
Coykoi23518
If that was the case then the second time you took the test you would get a wildly different result based on the order it appeared.
Coykoi23518
Unless you think they are driving you to a specific outcome. In which case your above argument doesn't work since its random.
trayohw220
When I did this in my psych class, all I learned was that I was really bad at telling white and black faces apart without color photographs
MERGATROYDER
That's why you should judge people by their actions and not at face value.
SquidJesus
Are you saying one is more valuable?
Corrodias
*This* is the reason? They should judge by deeds solely because they're incapable of judging by appearance? :)
swinglinered
noses
trayohw220
I eventually figured that out.
itsahollyday2
The PBS one is fun. It really shows that you can't tell someone's race just by looking at them.
SchrodingersSchrodinger
That sounds interesting. Do you have a link please?
itsahollyday2
I gotchu fam http://www.pbs.org/race/002_SortingPeople/002_00-home.htm
SchrodingersSchrodinger
THank you!
Renza0
You are correct that in many cases different races can look nearly identical, in others it can be incredibly obvious.
secondgoaround
I have a Mexican friend who could pass for Chinese. I'm white but could pass for Jewish. Whatever that means.
DonnaNobleInTheLibrary
Link?
itsahollyday2
http://www.pbs.org/race/002_SortingPeople/002_00-home.htm
WombatOfWomblemore
.
DonnaNobleInTheLibrary
Bummer that I'd have to install Flash for that ...
itsahollyday2
Oh man sorry :/ maybe you could take it at the library ;)
Nemesis0fReason
.
HumanLaurganism
.
molbiochem
.
MagicSquid
That test uses painfully small photographs with inconsistent lighting to (probably) intentionally make it nearly impossible.
itsahollyday2
If you click on the pictures it maximizes them