redmidasfish
150654
3033
211
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/27/us/politics/supreme-court-unions-organized-labor.amp.html
Jun 27, 2018 2:27 PM
redmidasfish
150654
3033
211
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/27/us/politics/supreme-court-unions-organized-labor.amp.html
BEAUTYISINTEHEYEWHENYOUHOLDHER
The powers that be have been playing the long game for a while now. Their patience and planning are starting to pay dividends, but not to me
paradoxbound
I am hearing a lot of dogs bark at their masters bidding and like dogs they know not what they say.
erbiumyttriumytterbium
Only affects public sector unions. Also, employees who don't wanna pay shouldn't get benefits of union contract.
Xenosmustbepurged
Back when men were men and women were men and children were men as well. Good ol times.
TGWeaver
This is a pretty big message about regulations as well, but apparently those are bad things now.
ILoveSpicyPeople
Don’t pay your dues, & don’t reap the benefits of the CBA. I’ll take my double time & a half on a holiday. You can get your straight time.
happyrabbitzz
PandaToots
I've been in one union and it wasn't great. 10 dollars out of every paycheck and the benefits Weren't great either.
CharliePapaBravo
Did each employee negotiate their own contract?
PandaToots
From my understanding it's very hard to do that in a union.
BurntheBabies
The union at my work got employees (even non-members that don't pay dues) excellent benefits. I don't get paid enough to join though.
lawlphailure
Laws allowing unionization are important. Unions themselves are hit-or-miss.
mainfrym
Big business owners and the government LOVE THIS they want to get rid of unions so the worker has no power, and they convinced you too!
DrShrinker
I get the feeling most of Imgur does not understand the difference between a public and private union.
andrewthestraw
Unions are good, but like everything it’s becomes corrupt when money gets involved
VictusVonGuyver
I can't stress how much we do need unions. I worked in an industry without a union and it caused a nervous breakdown. Joined a unionized >
VictusVonGuyver
Company, have me better benefits and protected me from workplace harassment. Then I noticed underhanded tactics by my company against >
VictusVonGuyver
The union. It illegally cut benefits, lied to the employees about the financial state of the company, and demanded an entire branch of >
VictusVonGuyver
Company employees from no longer entering the union. The company had managers post various flyers over 2 years villuanizing the union >
VictusVonGuyver
Claiming it was causing termination of benefits when the company in fact refused payment to contract for healthcare. The union had>
VictusVonGuyver
Had to fight to get a court ordered return of benefits after two years of legal fees and court delays by the company amidst corprate lies
anonanonsnake
The decline of labor unions is one of he reasons the wealth gap increased from the 70s onward. Today the bottom 40% have about 2% of wealth
Iagainsti120
Wrong, it was going off of the gold standard and unrestrained printing of money by the Federal Reserve that caused this.
Iagainsti120
The more money you print, the more the people are taxed and the wealth is then transferred the the Banksters and Elites of the World.
Iagainsti120
August 15, 1971 Nixon took us off the gold standard and removed real money from our currency and replaced it with debt.
Iagainsti120
All Financial crisis since 1913 have been the direct result of the FED manipulating our money. Read ...
Iagainsti120
The creature from Jekyll Island by G. Edward Griffin
BlastyMcBlastblast
they still pack 'em in, but at least we get to stand up now!
BlastyMcBlastblast
for shenanigans (and to pass time during the ride) try to secretly zip-tie someone's belt to the cage wall XD
yellowfin
I taught at a school. A student with an unstable background threatened to kill me and wrote on a paper how they would do it. (1/3)
yellowfin
Another student found it and handed it to me. I took it to the Assistant Principal who assured me she would handle it. (2/3)
yellowfin
Student kept coming to my class and kept trying to stay behind. I got intact with my union that evening. The student was gone the next day.
yellowfin
My union solved that issue for me.
CaffeineManic
America was strong when Unions were strong.
dietderpsy
America was strong when most of your industry wasn't in China.
PersonalityFire
America was also strong back when the top marginal tax rate was 90%. You can lead Conservatives to facts, but you can't make them think.
Oscill8s
Correlation does not imply causation.
theredfox64
The market collapse has nothing to do with the depression right?
Oscill8s
Who said that?
theredfox64
Correlation =\= causation right? Needs to work in all circumstances for it to hold logical consistency
Oscill8s
Just because correlation doesn't imply causation doesn't mean there isn't causation. It just isn't implied by the correlation.
JacksNaggingProcrastination
America was strong *because* unions were strong. And yes, we’re talking cause and effect. 1920’s robber barrons, the pinkertons... history
Oscill8s
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but - here's another one: past performance is not indicative of future results. Just because unions--
[deleted]
[deleted]
Oscill8s
It's not like I've never been accused of being pedantic before.
JacksNaggingProcrastination
While correlation/past performance don’t equal causation/imply future results, we can mathematically factor our degrees of certainty for 1/2
JacksNaggingProcrastination
future events. Linear regression modeling, analysis of variance/covariance, logistic regressions, and signal processing are all valuable.
Oscill8s
were the right answer then, does not mean unions are the right answer now.
JacksNaggingProcrastination
It also does not mean that they’re the wrong answer and we need to kill them immediately
MericanNightmare
You could say the same for the crippling of our middle class coinciding with the weakening of unions and the rise of corporate power.
Oscill8s
It's true of all things, regardless of your political position. Correlation never implies causation.
Oscill8s
Lol at everyone jumping to the wrong conclusions.
CaffeineManic
Therefore, let's never investigate nor allow the possibility that there may be cause and effect in action.
MericanNightmare
"we don't know if it could be realated and it's very convenient for my political beliefs if we leave it at that."
LarvaLamp
The only thing I didn't like about being at a union job was putting up with the guy everyone hated working with but couldn't be fired.
leftbanana
With Trump's appointee added to SCOTUS, we're daily watching the shredding of the US Constitution.
WorldsSmallestMegaDick
But this is the opposite, it's a firm defense of freedom of association and speech
Geraint782
...and now that Anthony Kennedy announced his retirement, he gets to make another appointment....
GinjerbreadMan
Gotta love Socialism!! Remember, Capitalism is all about the bottom dollar. If they could pay you less for more work, they would.
dietderpsy
Everything is always about resource, even in socialism.
LionHeart31337
In a heartbeat. You’re 5 minutes late once. Fired. The list goes on indefinitely. So many don’t understand what unions changed for everyone.
SmolTenk
The reason germany has medicare is because there was a time where getting sick would set a family on a downward spiral to starvation>
SmolTenk
Bismark realized that the workers were not willing to take the natural course of the market for granted, it was give in or revolution.
SolictedDickPicsUponRequest
It was about co-opting the liberals major selling point to guarantee worker support for his Prussian King and their junkers
Dusk17
And we all know what happened to their neighbor France when the working class had had enough.
SaudadeOfSunday
Unless I'm reading wrong, the ruling just stops them from forcing non-union workers in their sector to pay fees for not being in the union?
CharliePapaBravo
It forbids unions for collecting costs related to bargaining. Any employee could already opt out of paying for PAC money.
Catfactory
It's not a fee for not being in the union. It's a fee for the service the union is legally obligated to provide under state laws.
SaudadeOfSunday
But the worker isn't asking for those services. Sounds like they were being strongarmed into paying "protection money".
Catfactory
Then take it up with the relevant state law, not the union trying to represent its membership in accordance with the law.
HovercraftFullofBees
Workers are already using the benefits without even having to ask. Unions collectively bargain for all workers rights.
adrianenspired
and people (being greedy and/or poor) decide not to join. this is ALL about reducing unions' effectiveness, and making the rich richer.
OverpricedCrayon
Right but the people that dont pay the dues will still reap the benefits of the unions as they represent all workers members or not. (1
willi828
Yep, so why pay anymore?
OverpricedCrayon
Because if enough people stop paying dues the union goes away and no one gets benefits and you all go back to 30min lunch breaks.
OverpricedCrayon
Example: A Union negotiates a 3 hour lunch break. Union member or not, now everyone gets a 3 hour lunch break. Even if (2
OverpricedCrayon
You're a not a member of the union and didnt contribute in any way to it, you're still getting that 3 hour lunch (3
akducks2
Why does the union need to bargain for me? I worked for a state government. They wanted to keep me but couldn’t pay me more because/2
akducks2
Of the collective barging agreement. I would have to wait for a PCN to open up in a higher bracket. So I left and got paid more
barnwolf
No taxation without representation.
SomeDetroitGuy
The decision was only to say that you can't force non-union members to contribute money to unions. Oh, the horror!!
CharliePapaBravo
WRONG. That already existed, this means you cant charge for the costs of bargaining.
theredfox64
Police in my area get a 2% raise every year, guaranteed. Non-union, ya aint get that
theredfox64
Then make these people have 0 benefits of the union, not union contracts etc etc
Catfactory
Even when the unions provide services to non-members. So non-members can now take without paying, and unions lose some freedom to contract.
SomeDetroitGuy
The unions exist to serve their membership. They're not benevolent entities. They will screw over non-members the moment it benefits members
Catfactory
That depends entirely on the circumstances. The Duty of Fair Representation guards non-union members to a significant degree.
happyrabbitzz
I certainly hope so.
Edwest630
Just like the typewriter, unions had a time and a place. Unlike the typewriter, they haven't adapted for the times
Defecakes
Also like typewriters, or computers, they still have a purpose, just aren’t doing it well
theobstruction
Have fun with your lack of employee rights 20 years from now.
tivjotunsson
Yeah, but we didn't get rid of the typewriters, they just evolved. Same must happen with the unions. Become something better not just vanish
JasonMacza
it's not antiquated for people to use a % of their pay to organize benefits, safety, wages health care, child care, weekends, overtime.
Frogapus
This feels like an anti-union tagline. I've seen it repeated several times in this thread. I'm guessing you're management.
Edwest630
Look thru my comments if you want. Ive only said it once. Also I'm not management. I am an IC who has worked at companies w/ and w/o unions
Italipino
I'm pretty sure the fact that nearly no one uses typewriters means they didn't adapt.
Edwest630
How did you type that comment?
philcollinsdrumbreakdown
GiNgErSnApBiTcH
MuslimChillDrape
I'm sure you have done your research before making claim about 100% of all existing unions. So please provide your peer reviewed source.
HPLovecraftWatchesMeSleep
How many times are you going to copy/paste the same snobby reply?
MuslimChillDrape
Feel free to post peer reviewed source, supporting your position.
HPLovecraftWatchesMeSleep
Ok that made me laugh!
flarflarf
the wealthy in this country have captured virtually ALL the new wealth created by the information revolution. Workers wages have stagnated.
flarflarf
seems to me like a robust union presence would have gotten a piece of the pie for working Americans.
PaperCl1p
Everyone is wealthier in the USA than we were 50 years ago. That's why they say "inequality" now, because virtually everyone has plenty
flarflarf
3/ have all americans become wealthier over 50 years? technically yes, but not by anywhere near as much as you'd expect.
CharliePapaBravo
Wow, this is why Trump says he loves the uneducated. Have you factored in inflation? No, you haven't.
flarflarf
1/ the charts on this page should tell you everything you need to know about where the money in America has gone
flarflarf
2/ https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2017/09/19/u-s-household-incomes-a-50-year-perspective
flarflarf
4/ the poor in particular have gained very, very little. Your comment is either ignorant or disingenuous.
LionHeart31337
This sounds like someone who has never worked for a company with a union, and repeated something their father said. Unions work.
myfriendevanwilliams
Unions work, sometimes. I hate how they are seen as always benevolent forces when in reality I've seen the bad side. They aren't moral goods
CharliePapaBravo
True, but they are the only thing left to fight against the oligarchy. For every dollar of union political contributions, companies put 50.
doodoobailey
Hybris51129
*Your results may vary.
ProjectSatan
im sure unions work. but what would work better is forcing businesses to uphold regular laws of business if they're a business.
theredfox64
Most people cannot sue their employer for negligence and such, go to the government, you are a complainer who wants hand outs
ProjectSatan
what?
tacxirtam
Probably referring to employers use of mandatory arbitration. https://www.epi.org/publication/the-growing-use-of-mandatory-arbitration/
MuslimChillDrape
But Unions DO THAT. They watch for illegal business practices, help with lawsuits or prevent it going to court in the first place.
ProjectSatan
right. i know that. im saying it'd be nice if they didnt have to exist because businesses would just conduct themselves responsibly.
shelecky11
When has a business ever conducted itself for the better of the employees? Obviously if you are part of a union you've gotten fed up with
theredfox64
No one drives the speed limit all the time...
shelecky11
Being treated like garbage and you want a change. You want someone to treat you with the respect you deserve!
BuddyTheAlion
Can someone dumb this down? As someone without a union what does this change? Other than not paying fees and backing political candidates?
JasonMacza
Union dues are used to manage the master contract. Workers are now free to work along side union counter parts but not pay dues.
CharliePapaBravo
PAST:If you didn't want to be in the union, they could only charge you for bargaining costs. NO PAC MONEY would come from your check. 1/2
CharliePapaBravo
NOW: Union still required to represent you for bargaining, you don't have to pay them. Management has lawyers and staff to bargain. 2/2
BuddyTheAlion
Makes a lot more sense. Thanks CPB
TearingAway
If your work is unionized and you dont wish to be a full union member, you still pay 'fair share' bc you reap the benefits of the union.....
TearingAway
...and the difference between full and non member is .5%. Members pay 1% of pay, non members pay .5%. This is to bust unions.
connor1943
Public. Sector. Unions. Everyone is really overlooking that little detail.
TearingAway
Also, pub sec unions are usually the most overworked and underpaid already, so it might be really bad. PSLF is also under attack by trump
TearingAway
I understand that...
Kallistocles
So we'll just have non funded unions now, negotiate with business and don't put their dicks in the political racket
TearingAway
Non funded unions lol. Public sec Union strength was already on the decline, this will kill it completely. Race to the bottom is real.
Kallistocles
Meh No one's employed me for longer than a month because of my bs, I couldn't care less if you normies have it hard, Try working together
SuperPickle17
Why do unions even need money? They should be volunteers by the works themselves. All unions have become is yet another corp bureaucracy
CharliePapaBravo
Management has paid staff + lawyers to bargain contracts. You are saying it is reasonable to expect labor to volunteer now?
Catfactory
Unions have their own employees and contractors. Unions hire lawyers, consultants, bargainers, etc.
happyrabbitzz
Not enough people willing to volunteer their time sparky.
SuperPickle17
Then they don't deserve a union.
TearingAway
Union members DO volunteer. Union meetings on off days, pol activism for pro union staff, and we are active in the city...
Catfactory
The recent decision is dismaying, both for its consequences and its jurisprudence. It's no accident that other common law jurisdictions 1/2
[deleted]
[deleted]
Catfactory
Membership hasn't been compelled since 1977. This case is entirely about the nature of agency fees.
ididntgetthejobatfruitloops
Derpy derp derp
FireflyArc
What happened?
jhanked
Supreme Court ruled that unions can't collect dues from non-members that benefit from collective bargaining. So now you can free ride.
Baeloro
It's not free. You show up to work and do your job. That's enough to earn bargaining power. Unions don't do enough to warrant payment.
jhanked
Basically everyone benefits from unions but some folks don't like the dues that come with those benefits and now the system's gonna crash.
Baeloro
No. Only some people benefit from unions. Specifically, those individuals in a union that actually does what it's supposed to.
Baeloro
And then, only in unions that have successfully increased wages and benefits for their members. The 3 years I was in ufcw 367, my wages only
AllTimeTired
Yup, I hate it when I work harder than everyone else but can't make more than the laziest employee. Then forced to pay for that 'right'.
Catfactory
2/2 have recognized fundamental rights to unionize, receive dues from non-members, strike, collectively bargain, etc., such as in Canada.
afterdarkart
I think its fine. We didn't get rid of them, but if I'm not part of your union, I don't feel financially obligated to it against my will.
Catfactory
What if the union provides a service to you, as it's required to do under state law?
afterdarkart
I don't know. I've only been a part of two unions, one of them from the Fed. Gov. and they've never provided a service in that means.
afterdarkart
It would be a tough question to answer. It's much like taxes; my taxed money goes to a lot of things I don't use, but others doe.
masterswasntworthit
Yeah I'm a union member and now I'm afraid for it.
Mcmonkeybug
Gather fees from non-members?
JoshOfTheDeep
I'm really sorry, I can't understand big words, can you help me understand what happened?
Catfactory
See my other comments above. I and a few others explain the ruling's consequences in non-technical terms.
CharliePapaBravo
Before: Employees could opt out of paying for PAC money, but could be charged for collective bargaining and dispute resolution costs. 1/2
CharliePapaBravo
Now: Unions cannot collect from all for these costs. Worth noting: management has paid staff and lawyers to negotiate.
GinjerbreadMan
So would I, if I was non union, still get benefits? Like my pay would increase, my safety would be defended, my hours not changed?
causality
Receive dues from non-members? What? That sounds a lot like robbery.
Traja01
Only if you think taxes are theft. And if you do, don't tell me that, because I can't deal with that level of stupidity right now.
causality
The right of the government to collect taxes is in the constitution. Unions are not the government.
Traja01
It's the same principal. Freerider problem/tragedy of the commons stuff.
Scriptura
Oops sorry Canada doesn't have the first amendment. Btw you have to pay to my monthly "laugh at stupid imgur comments" dues.
Catfactory
Canada has an analogue of the first amendment in its Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
GinjerbreadMan
As a Canadian it always makes me laugh to hear that first amendment bull :P How awful it is up here. Just sad stifled people.
CityYeti
Your comment made me feel really stupid. Could you explain to a layman?
steviEa
So this collective bargaining helps them with pay raises, insurance coverage, retirement plans, etc. However bargaining for these 2/3
steviEa
This person knows more than me probly. But basically Unions collectively bargain on behalf of employees who work for the state 1/3
Catfactory
1 This new decision was really out of step with the law before it, as well as the law in other countries. Although the law does change
Catfactory
4 This right is super important however in that it will likely weaken unions across the board, so it's a pretty fatal loss for many unions.
Catfactory
2 it's uncommon to see a decision that takes the country so far from the earlier law and law in similar places.
Catfactory
3 Canada, for instance, recognizes many labour rights that the United States does not, including the one that the SCOTUS just removed.
Saustino
For public unions, people who don’t want to be apart of that union no longer have to pay the dues.
CityYeti
But they'll still get the benefits?
Saustino
Yep. Not sure how it’s going to work.
Saustino
Unions could stop giving member $ to politicians and it would make this ruling not apply them.
Catfactory
5 So it's dismaying because it'll do so much damage, and because it's so radical compared to the old law and law elsewhere.
CityYeti
Ah, that makes perfect sense. Thank you. And what you said makes a lot of sense. I do not like how this administration is running things
CityYeti
It feels like everything is meant to only be better for the rich instead of everybody
steviEa
Costs time and money. So all members are required to pay a union fee. Supreme Court just said members aren’t required to pay fee anymore 3/3
steviEa
Non-members other guys is right my bad.
TekPriest1975
Supreme Court said NON-members are no longer required to pay.
Baeloro
Which is amazing. I was union just because I was employed by a specific company. Our union collected dues and then did nothing else.
steviEa
Basically having the option to pay weakens how much money unions can operate under making it more difficult to collectively bargain.
Baeloro
The other side? Makes it difficult for unions to organize and collect dues and then just sit on their hands instead of doing what a union do
Baeloro
And the sad part is most unions are like this. With exception of teamsters and a couple others, unions are mostly worthless.
CityYeti
It feels like they took away the power from people who are able to fight back against the rich...
steviEa
That’s exactly what the problem is. Granted not all unions are perfect but it was a way to fight nonetheless.
WorldsSmallestMegaDick
Unions salty that they can't take the money of people who fundamentally disagree with them anymore
TekPriest1975
Never worked a union job in my life and never will. I like earning more than the idiot next to me who can't do half of what I do.
CityYeti
But won't that also mean the people who don't pay will still get what they fight for?
Baeloro
What do unions fight for? Minimum wage has stagnated for decades while inflation has done its thing.
dramert12000
These are public sector unions. This ruling does not affect your local crafts & trades ( iron workers, painters, plumbers)
JacksNaggingProcrastination
It doesn’t affect them directly, but I’ll argue that the indirect effect is already in play. It just won’t be as noticeable for a bit
spaghettiThunderbolt
Not for long. There are already 28 right-to-work-for-less states, and I can say that living in one sucks.
TheFallofHumanity
There will be lawsuits on file in a week that will fix that.
CharliePapaBravo
*Yet.
steviEa
What Charie said. Precedent plays a huge role in lawmaking it’s super easy for them to apply the same thing to another scenario.
connor1943
In lawMAKING? Nah. In law interpretation, yes.
danishjuggler21
It’s called “chipping away”. Chip, chip, chip away at unions a bit at a time, in small enough bits to get away with it.
connor1943
What are your feelings on the 2nd Amend.?
KingSpitfire
Shhh everyone knows they'd never chip away the 2nd. They were fine with the 1934 NFA. They definitely haven't chipped more away.
danishjuggler21
Does that red herring taste good? May I try some?
connor1943
I'll take that as "I don't like the 2nd Amend. But see how you're about to implicate my views on that" for 500, Alec.
danishjuggler21
And I’ll take “Fox News told me that anyone who’s pro-union is also anti-gun and I don’t have a mind of my own” for 1000
JasonMacza
Only 7% of workers in the US are union. 12% if you include government workers. Germany is 65%
Zorasht
And that is the reason the got peed on their faces while they are told is raining
UncomfortableTruths
yeah, most American workers aren't in a union. They're also badly underpaid, for the most part. Not a coincidence.
Stolf
And most jobs shove anti union propaganda down your throat in orientation
twisster76
I think you're missing the point. Sick days, paid holidays, workers comp, insurance, overtime, weekends off... union collective bargaining.
twisster76
In other words, if you're job (in the U.S. anyway) offers those things, you can thank a union CBA somewhere down the line.
twisster76
*your (sonofabitch)
pugofstardock
German unions are different in philosophy. They know that the company sometimes has to let people go and safe money to survive.
yourhros
Yes, absolutely this. U.S. Union worker... my union is the bane of my existence, takes my money and forces me to work with shitheads
toombskull
Amazon distribution Warehouse 2020
Zigor22
If I have to join a union to work somewhere, then I don't bother with them. Unions like teamsters are basically the mafia.
CentsVern7
As a union member in the US I feel pretty lucky.
Apocalypsox
U.S. unions have a bad habit of being fucking garbage. Operators union shit on my family royally when I was a kid.
politicalhack
But significantly more are covered by and benefit from the collective bargaining and grievance processes.
TheRicM
I agree with the other comment. That high amount suggests that the laws are not sufficient?
coweatsrabbit
Not really, more powerful unions enables more relaxed labour laws, as the collective bargaining agreements films in what us missing from law
coweatsrabbit
Also, the collective bargaining agreements gives the opportunity to make different rules for different types of work
Claptree
At least in Sweden the laws are written so that unions and employers negotiate pay and other issues without gov interference. 1/2
Claptree
Laws can be rewritten and changed without your input. Collective bargaining means you're always involved.
Kaenguru
Germany
unfamiliarHorse
Yes?
Kaenguru
Yes
PenicilliumCamemberti
Witzig.
Baguette2000
But why ? In France, it is because law protects workers enough for them not needing that much union protection, for example.
PreciousPotato
Is that why you're always on strike?
Cutwail
It's mosty "union are great only when we need them"
mecrookedfrenchy
and why do we in france have this laws, if not because of union riots and strikes in the 1930's ?
Baguette2000
Sure. In fact, that union participation is low may very well be an indicator of the good job they did in the past.
SolictedDickPicsUponRequest
The partial reason it’s 7% here is they view themselves as gloried staffing agencies. Ask me how I was messing up their “revenue stream”
JasonMacza
That's Propaganda. Why would unions use their assets to do what HR department is meant to do? Answer....they don't. Because that's stupid.
SolictedDickPicsUponRequest
I’m pro-union but the union president didn’t know it and it isn’t propaganda. I was told I wasn’t turning over enough staff. I asked why >
SolictedDickPicsUponRequest
That was a problem? He then began explaining that members only paid $55 per month but new hires had to pay initiation fees. I had 86 >
SolictedDickPicsUponRequest
direct reports and a turn over of “just 5% every month” for my departments was “affecting my revenue stream” by removing $2600 from >
FailedCrate
Just imagine if at least 50% of the workers in the US would be organized in correct & transparent unions...
Apocalypsox
Correct & Transparent is the key there for the U.S. Lot of the unions are dominated by seniority and favorites/internal politics.
ArcaneConjecture
Even if the union was corrupt, workers were *still* better off. Back in the 1950s households didn't need two incomes to survive.
JasonMacza
Unions - by definition a not-for-profit.Regulated by the government (under labour law). By law they are transparent to their users.
FailedCrate
I know. But if they want to get a better rep in the US, they need to be straight forward transparent.
JacksNaggingProcrastination
But... he just said... they are... so what might you change to make them *more* transparent and straight-forward?
FailedCrate
Considering that most people in the US think that they're corrupt those unions need to proof otherwise.
krisslanza
And some of the Unions in the US aren't even that good. They basically just do what the company wants anyway.
JasonMacza
A union doesn't have magic negotiating power. Workers either can negotiate or they can't. Zero sum games or non zero sum games.
charliegrs
That's because of the union busting. It used to be a lot higher
PlantainSuperNova
Remember the time Elon Musk tried to get rid of his worker's union in Germany by offering them frozen yogurt?
JessieJanson
He did actually put in a yogurt bar at the gigafactory though. its free. And before anyone says it, those guys dont want the union, the 1/2
JessieJanson
union abandoned them and they all lost their jobs, they hate the union, there is a nice video of the meeting where they found out too. 2/3
JessieJanson
plus the union wont allot stock as payment despite some being vary rich from it. They want the stock.
FailedCrate
Source.
kofjfsfsf
Not really true https://qz.com/974717/elon-musk-is-facing-down-germanys-biggest-union-and-disgruntled-workers-at-tesla-grohmann-automation/
sendex
Seriously ?!
LokeGroundrunner
Notice how he didn't produce a source? Don't believe someone unless they provide proof to support their claim.
taekimm
DENTAL PLAN
JacksNaggingProcrastination
LISA NEEDS BRACES
FoxFyre
Lisa needs braces
Ichqwertzu
He did clash with the IG Metall (biggest Union in Germany) after acquiring the industrial machine manufacturer Grohman because the wages1/4
Ichqwertzu
were 20-30% lower than union rates. He offered 150€/month, 10.000€ in Tesla Shares and a 1000€ bonus for every employee, but there was 2/4
Ichqwertzu
no mention of yogurt (German: https://t3n.de/news/elon-musk-tesla-ig-metal-grohmann-815717/ ) . He did apparently promise free frozen 3/4
Ichqwertzu
yogurt stands to employees in Fremont CA https://electrek.co/2017/02/24/tesla-union-elon-musk-addresses-employees/ 4/4
REDS1X
It was really good frozen yogurt.
hayhayhayhayyyyy
FWIW: everything you ever use is invented in America. Unions kill profitability and thus risk taking. Prove me wrong with multiple examples.
JasonMacza
Prove you wrong? You prove your own claim! NFL. NHL, MIT, NASA, elite agents, profit high.
ArcaneConjecture
Unions help profitability. Higher wages for workers go right back into the economy. You can't sell anything if your customers are broke.
hayhayhayhayyyyy
1. No. 2. Depends on so many factors 3. Yes you can
ArcaneConjecture
When I say "Unions help profitability", I mean for everyone. Not just the wealthy 10% who own most corporate shares.
hayhayhayhayyyyy
What is my incentive to work harder if we are all unionized? I have too many examples of poor work.
hayhayhayhayyyyy
Companies are not as profitable. Less money for R&D, marketing etc. This is a global world now. Unions had their day and use.
ArcaneConjecture
Then explain why workers were better off when there were more unions? https://imgur.com/gaoiEZt
hayhayhayhayyyyy
Sure. Globalization.
TotallyHappyCustomer
The BLS states that in 2017 union membership in the public sector was at 34%.
TotallyHappyCustomer
After further research, I believe i misinterpreted the data and the actual unionization rate is a little over 10%. I however am still unsure
TotallyHappyCustomer
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm Souce for those interested in learning more
thisistheguy
Unions are awesome if you actually stay with the company, I worked at a grocery store and hated paying dues but that was because I was 18...
thisistheguy
..and was leaving for school in like 6 months. They promised the workers guaranteed raises and good hours
Milchsteak
As a german industrial mechanic: Unions are awesome: they care for safety, healthcare, loans and holidays. I'm glad im in one.
AvatarTommyBee
Never understood, why that was forgotten in thr first place.
Selerox
UK unions don't have the power of those in Germany, but they help stand between the worker and the government. We need them.
AsFarAsIKnow
all of you are discussing unions, I just want to know what's up in that picture
krotuskang
As an American I have no idea what a holiday is.
connor1943
You do know what it's ike to live in a nation with about the same pop. but twice the GDP of the EU, tho.
Relusion
Yep.....
Hollen
6 weeks of doing what ever. Payed of course......
Stolf
But....but....MUH PROFITS
Abfallkonto
Maybe you should try a Union. Oops, illegal now. Probably because they raise wages and general quality of life for workers. Mgmt no like
connor1943
They're not fucking illegal. Public sector unions just can't force you to pay them if you're not in them. Kinda makes sense.
Abfallkonto
But by law if a public sector union exists then all employees benefit, regardless if they pay dues. This was intended to kill unions
FailedCrate
As a german in social fields: fuck yeah! Unions! I bet our other european homies will agree on how sweet unions are. Xoxo
hayhayhayhayyyyy
Aren't you Canadian?
zigurat
Hell yeah, Belgian unions are also sweet! They also make sure that if bosses fuck over their employees and you strike, that you get paid!
Danishlmgurian
Nothing better than knowing your future is secured through country wide agreements on vacation, work hours and base salary
DeTobiasch
Dutch unions are sweet! Although the bus driver strikes these days are annoying lol. I agree with them though.
toropazzoide
As italian, I respectfully disagree but only because our unions suck ass.
StringNotFound
Unions protect the common good but many undeserving people take advantage of this in unbecoming ways.
FailedCrate
Well almost your whole economic & political system is corrupted :-(
toropazzoide
You are correct. Not only corrupted but full of bigots, racists and generally old cucks. I hate our politicians :(
GabZonY
word lol
coweatsrabbit
Meh, they have their upsides, but forcing people who are non-member to pay for collective bargaining... Not even done in Sweden).
FailedCrate
I think that's the problem with US- unions. It should be voluntary to be member and therefore pay.
ReturnoftheZombiePlagueApocalypse
Where are you? In my UK union non-members get benefits of collective bargaining, and don't have to pay a penny. It's called 'coat-tailing'
FailedCrate
Same in Germany. Though I like that more people would join the union, so we have a bigger lever.
coweatsrabbit
In Sweden. It is the same here.
djie
Pay 16 bucks a month - get 10 back via taxes and your employer cant fck things up. /feelsgoodman
whatinthehellisthat
PSA Germany has been eliminated from the world cup. Ends up dead last in their group. Good day!
PreciousPotato
Oh damn, that must be embarrassing for the boys.
ThrowAwayAcct0000
Quick, distract the US from the idea that unions are good!
HoryShietBatman
To be fair, unions have done both good and bad for the country. One only needs to look at how difficult it is to get rid of bad...(1/?)
JasonMacza
A propaganda line. Same as fallacious claim Corporation have also done good, bad. It's ridiculous to link behavior to legal codification.
HoryShietBatman
employees. Especially with teacher unions, in that you have to go thru hoops just to fire them. I understand protecting workers, but...(2/?)
HoryShietBatman
we need to find a proper balance that protects the consumer and the employer. (3/3)
thisistheusernamethatneverendss
Tenure exists because young teachers do the same exact job as older teachers for much less salary. It gives protections to veteran teachers
nekobaka
I'm not sure about it, but I believe you don't HAVE to pay any union fees in Germany, too, and that's all the SC ruled on in the US, right?
JustAnotherFurry
Union fees here are decided by the unions, nearly all have them but they actually do good and show where it goes. GO UNIONS!
nekobaka
but is paying the fee mandatory for everyone or is it just the union members?
JustAnotherFurry
Union members only!
nekobaka
And that's how it's going to be in the US from now on, apparently. Before that it was mandatory for non-members, too.
monkeyjumpingonthebed
Like unions or not, you all, who do not belong to ruling classe(s) will need your unions as balancing power against them.
nobodyyy
Then the people that believe that can pay union fees. What's the issue?
charliegrs
Unfortunately that ship sailed a long time ago. Unions are all but dead now. I guess we should enjoy what little labor rights we have
JacksNaggingProcrastination
Or fight. I’m a fan of fighting instead of laying down and dying.
akducks2
But I don’t support my union. Why should I have to pay money to them so they can support something/someone I disagree with?
FailedCrate
That's why you can participate actively in the union.
LegendaryGrumpyCat
My union does allow you to opt out of your fees being used for political purposes. They will use it for other things.
akducks2
So in the majority decision they said that those “negotiation” fees still help the union get money for political use.
LegendaryGrumpyCat
I guess that makes sense, but the non union members would benefit from negotiations made for the members, which isn't fair
TadashiK
You disagree with the ability to force your employer to treat you like a human?
funkmoth
There's labor laws and OSHA and probably other stuff that already protect workers.
GinjerbreadMan
Isn't OSHA a union in it's self? I'm asking because I dont know
barnwolf
My employer treats me like a human because I provide a valuable service and they don't want me to quit and work for their competitor.
JacksNaggingProcrastination
You’re in a cushy and uncommon position. Others don’t have what you do. They need someone to fight for their human dignity & best interests.
LuciusBest
Hahahaha! You're a line item on a spreadsheet under "expenses". Reducing that line item means more money in their pockets.
funkmoth
The union in my shop is pointless. I opted out as soon as I could.
CharliePapaBravo
You guys don't have collective bargaining?
funkmoth
Nope
KartFnocker
might as well destroy them all, then?
cheezit11
Yep, that would be a great idea for the fossil organizations
JacksNaggingProcrastination
Rephrase? Not sure I get your intent. Good for organizations & bad for workers? Or /s, and good for the workers? B/c I agree w/ the former.
MuslimChillDrape
Your brain is a fossil if you voluntarily throw away collective negotiating power.
dentros1
A union is only as strong as its weakest members. Its only pointless when no one cares.
funkmoth
Within a global company we're the only USA facility that has a union and the other shops have the same benefits and more pay.
TresusIbor
Couldn't be further from the truth. Unions will always have weak members, but strong leadership can more than make up for it.
TresusIbor
I've seen strong, outspoken union leaders turn weak districts around and get shit done.
MuslimChillDrape
And they would get more shit done if members were strong.
GahDuma
Unions should be allowed to exist. Membership in unions should be voluntary. Why is it so hard to understand?
CharliePapaBravo
Because then you lose collective bargaining and it will be a race to the bottom.
MrTay
So what make your union more appealing. Some unions are great some are predatory and others are criminal safe havens. The long shore man 1/
happyrabbitzz
Those who don't choose to be members should then not be given the union-negotiated benefits, yes?
shuttlecockinakumquat
non-members agree 100/100.
WilliamKeith
If the employer can hire lower-paid non-union workers those are the only people it will hire.
barnwolf
Yes, and that's a situation where unions aren't needed. Unions shouldn't exist just to force employers to overpay their employees.
WilliamKeith
It is not being overpaid. Pay is a negotiation. But any one worker needs a salary a lot more than the company needs *one* more employee. 1/2
WilliamKeith
Having a union simply levels the negotiation field. The company does need employees, plural. 2/2
Catfactory
The question at issue here is about agency fees. It's more complicated than just the ideas you mention.
WorldsSmallestMegaDick
Not really if you don't support the actions of the union you shouldn't be forced to pay them
counterfeitdreams
Then you also shouldn’t be allowed to reap the benefits. They get 2 wks paid vacation, u get whatever your employer wants to give you
theredfox64
Then do not get the benefits, negotiate your own? Do not use union benefits... but these people still do
WorldsSmallestMegaDick
Mainly because its forced upon them, their isn't another option besides leave the profession
SaltyInternetPirate
It's not forced upon the workers, it's forced upon the unions, with the explicit goal to bankrupt them.
Catfactory
The law requires a duty of fair representation. If the law changed so that the duty weren't there, this decision wouldn't be controversial.
theredfox64
Besides money, negatives of union?
shelecky11
So when a union doesn't support the actions you take, they won't have to support you right????
VizenFatale
That's whilst my hubby thinks. He never asks anyone else to defend him. He takes his own responsibility for his well being, he hates unions.
SecretlyARedPanda
They don't. Plenty of so called problematic union members get thrown under the bus in the name of negotiation.
shelecky11
In some places sure, but what about the unions who actually take care of their people?
WorldsSmallestMegaDick
Yeah? If anyone doesn't agree with something they shouldn't be forced to support or participate in it.
GaySocialistLiberalMuslimCommieAtheist
Except that isn't how it works. If unions get something good done all workers get the benefit. Not just union members.
CharliePapaBravo
Does that include taxes? Divided we fall.
VizenFatale
It's like having to pay for fuel every week even 8f we didn't drive the car.
VizenFatale
That was his argument why Obama care was bad, we didn't use it but we still had to pay for it through our penalty fee.
CharliePapaBravo
Because the insured pay indirectly for the uninsured's medical costs.
VizenFatale
And refused to ever becoart of one. He should not have to pay for something he doesn't use
BriefausdemGeist
The decision wasn’t anti-union, per se, it was to stop unions from having non-union members pay dues to unions they weren’t members of.
MorrighanWolf
No?
mainfrym
But you still get the benefits if the negotiated contract, so if enough people don't pay dues the union goes awh and the millionaires win
LenWeirdracin
or more of not having non-union people forced to pay union dues that are used for political funding!
steviEa
3 but the state is completely broke cause once again their politicians are trash. The only people holding politicians to pay these pensions
steviEa
4 are unions. Any money these unions don’t collect is less power, and resources. Any scenario in which Unions are weaker is better for IL
Fistytheclown
Ding ding ding! Exactly.
Fistytheclown
So we should be forced to pay mandatory dues to a union that is a large contributor to the democrat party?
alRakoun
But which they benefitted from the collective bargaining of. It'd really be nice if I could do that with my taxes.
utgort
In particular it was to stop the unions from extracting dues from non-members that oppose the politics those dues were used for.
Catfactory
No, that's been the law since Abood (1977). This decision was about agency fees.
BriefausdemGeist
Which was, according to Janus himself on MSNBC earlier today at about 345, another term for union dues under IL law
Catfactory
Janus is wrong. Agencies fees and union dues are different.
BriefausdemGeist
Ah, I was not aware.
causality
Ill-effects or not, an organization has no right to demand money from people without their consent.
Catfactory
It's not without their consent. It's a condition of employment.
BriefausdemGeist
Not when it’s been codified. That’s a law forcing participation/association without free choice
Catfactory
Tell that to the Constitution, which already permits the codified duty of fair representation in every state and common law jurisdiction.
Catfactory
The same is true of common law jurisdictions around the world.
steviEa
6 it’s not as simple as getting rid of something anymore. You have to look at the big picture.
steviEa
1 Ok but none of you who agree with this understand the implications behind that. Do you know why Illinois is leading the charge here?
steviEa
5 and shit that’s just IL. 5 million people no longer paying dues can you imagine how weak and ineffective unions could become?
BriefausdemGeist
They weren’t given the *choice* to participate.
steviEa
The thing about participation is that it isn’t mandatory. If you work a Union job you know full well of the consequences related to that.
BriefausdemGeist
Sure, but the way the law in Illinois was written, Janus had a percentage of his pay taken out to fund the union. He was not given the opt
steviEa
Christ dude....you realize Janus works for Governor Rauner. The dude is a pawn. Rauner couldn’t directly sue himself so he had Janus step in
steviEa
If you don’t want to participate go non member if you do go member simple as that.
DragoWhooves
it sounds like paying tax in a country that you never lived in
BriefausdemGeist
Or being an American abroad and still paying taxes.
AquilusPrime
This is the little detail everyone else is missing. Nobody actually read the link. It makes PAYING for a union optional if you arent in it.
WallyWorldtoo
And your not adding, still recieve the benefit union get.
JonathanHoag
Yeah, but the union benefits all the teachers, and now most of them won't pay fees, so the union may die. So who negotiates salaries?
SwarthyBastard
No one's missing that detail. The fees are specifically for collective bargaining that you get regardless of of membership. They're 1/2
SwarthyBastard
separate from any political efforts. Basically, they're now expecting people to volunteer dues when they don't need to pay them. I'm 1/2
SwarthyBastard
pretty positive about human beings, but I don't have a strong sense that many people are going to do so.
SeriousBusinessman
I was literally in the Supreme Court today and there are so many other negative ramifications. It really is a nail in the coffin for unions
CharliePapaBravo
No, it means you can reap the benefits of collective bargaining without paying for it. Management has staff and lawyers to bargain.
CharliePapaBravo
Why is this downvoted, it is true.
BriefausdemGeist
There is a valid argument that this could lead to union deaths, but a number were already heading that way for a variety of reasons
theobstruction
It lets you get some of the benefits for free as well. Sounds like theft, to me.
burgonies
If not enough people feel like the benefits outweigh the cost, then fuck it.
Catfactory
The point is that they don't have to. They get the benefits for free if they're not members, until the union dies.
Dangermouse5
Ohhhh, look whos fighting pro choice now. This is epic.
BriefausdemGeist
?
theobstruction
Yeah, so they can get the benefits of being union members without the cost? Think with your head.
steviEa
2 it’s because trash politicians operated without a budget for years and put off paying pensions plans for years. Now people are retiring
VictusVonGuyver
Except that these jobs require a union membership to begin with. So this purposely weakens the union when it comes down to negotiate. >
VictusVonGuyver
Since these are fed related jobs, the expense of representing it's members is now much harder. The reps call this a victory for tax payers.
BriefausdemGeist
Which starved out new workers from entering the field.
burgonies
If the job requires union membership, how could you possibly have workers in the position at aren't members of the union?
VictusVonGuyver
Work of right laws exist in some states, these allow those who get such positions to opt out of the union via union resignation. You keep >
VictusVonGuyver
the job but no longer have to pay all union dues. However some are still required to pay up to 80% of the dues.
VictusVonGuyver
I forgot that the resignation is allowed if its a religious or ideological reason.
Sweiner
Yes. Just let people not in the union benefit from the union and not have to support them. That isn't a way to destroy rhe union.
Sweiner
The decision formalized the free rider problem and said that public unions can't do anything about it.
BriefausdemGeist
My view of the matter is that some, far from all, but some unions had stopped doing anything for workers and just became PACs
alRakoun
So we punish the many for the crimes of the few?
BriefausdemGeist
I disagree that it punishes unions (on the face of the law)
Sweiner
Very few. Most if not all unions function simply to get the workers benefits.
Sweiner
This comes from the fact that unions in the US are specific. Theyre not just general unions, but unions related to an industry or firm.
RandomActOfConfusion
Unions are tools workers have. If that tool isn't providing enough benefits to its workers, why should they be forced to pay for it? I hope
Catfactory
Because even if they're providing benefits it's still economical for individuals to not be a member of it and receive its benefits.
SuperPickle17
So basically unnecessary bureaucracy
Sweiner
No. INCREDIBLY necessary worker organizing. Its just more profitable to get something from nothing. This destroys public unions.
otherJeffsarefalseJeffs
Too often these days unions exist only to self-perpetuate. Federal law should cap a union boss’s pay to the median of who he represents.
Sweiner
All hierarchical structures should have a cap on whoever is a "boss".
alRakoun
Because of _freeloaders_. You don't get to decide not to pay taxes to support the fire department until your house starts burning.
RandomActOfConfusion
This provides unions a reason to prove their value to their members instead of being taken for granted. This has the potential to be good
RandomActOfConfusion
For everyone, especially the workers.
VictusVonGuyver
I'm hoping you are right. Otherwise if this goes down the way we expected, the unions will be left as a underfunded an ineffective function.
Sweiner
Yes. Just destroy the union, then they'll see how much the union is needed. Organizing wont be THAT much harder.
Catfactory
The free rider problem is fatal to many union organizations if the unions can't receive at least agency dues.
Sweiner
Yeah, how do workers expect a union to collecticely bargain if it has no funding?
alRakoun
That's exactly what the GOP members of the Supreme Court are banking on.