Lynkfox
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I truly believe (afraid) that violence will be the only way out of this hellscape of a country were in. These people are not going to give up their power just because we're angry.
I 100% think that if anyone is in danger of being taken by the armed jackboot thugs of the gestapo that they should fight back, with violence and weapons and whatever else at their disposal
I believe that people who see others being taken need to step up and fight back to save them, not just observe - tho observation is needed and records must be generated for when we finally can being justice
But I've been seeing more and more people calling for killing them all now. Ambushing them in the street. Catching them as they leave their hotels.
And lumping every single government employee - most of whom are just wage slaves - in with the willing gestapo and ring leaders, and saying they need to die too.
I'm afraid it's concentrated effort of cyber ops, bot farms, trolls, ect to push a more violent than necessary narrative - we know they push both sides of any issues because chaos is the point. They want us destablized
If we let that idea win - kill them in the streets with no judge, no jury, no chance to defend themselves in a court of law (preferably after weve dismantled their corrupt versions) then we become no better than them.
"Every ICE agent must die" is no different than "Every immigrant must die"
I'm not saying we have to entirely take the high road and be pacifists. But we also don't need to become the very thing we're fighting against.
TheDefective
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_suicides_in_Nazi">_Germany">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_suicides_in_Nazi_Germany /gallery/nazi-bashing-super-resource-ieVQeti
StarSumiaki
I don't think it's "becoming the very thing we fight against" to come to terms with the reality that you can't punish people justly using a system they control that by its very nature isn't just, and opting for a different path that more quickly removes the danger. It would be if we adopted that method for every problem here on out, though.
Either way, "kill em all" is just terrible logistics. If you're committed to violence, it's basically the gospel of war time that you priority-sort targets.
beez428
They shot first
mksu
Do you just ignore the fact that ICE is already illegally broadly employing violence against us with no repercussions? You have the same bullshit take as every other oppressor where you ignore the oppression while endlessly tone policing, clutching your pearls over, and wring your hands about anyone who fights back because they aren't doing it to whatever arbitrary and likely unachievable standard allows you to personally feel comfortable.
cattlegrazer82
Give them "the look" instead. https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPWE1NzM3M2U1Znl5aDk1ZTRsdXVxZ2U2N2JnbmRtbmpkbGNuY2NlaGJoODVkc2IxdiZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjdD1n/DENtTUGBDXtxm/200w.webp
ClutterMonkey
What are you fighting? Why is it that America is the only nation that isn’t allowed to enforce their borders?
Helixninja333
Nazi Bot
Awmph
call for self defense
Lynkfox
Thank you. Yes.
hamulusrex
I think this is the way.
DutchBoeremeisie
Yeah, too many extremists on the left and on Imgur. And I mean the ones that call you a literal Nazi for pointing out that they're wrong about something as minor as bot armies downvoting politically tagged posts en masse. Or the ones threatening to stomp your head into the ground till the skull cracks if you dare point out a mistake in a post they made. Or a video that was posted a while ago, about the people that were unfairly punished after WW2, for apparently collaborating with the Nazis, ...
DutchBoeremeisie
... with no proof or trial, and both the OP and a lot of the commenters being *for* that kind of treatment. And my favourite, when you criticise the left, you are suddenly "both sides"-ing it. Because people have learned to argue with short cuts that they don't understand the meaning of.
genericuser010180
I. Indict
C. Convict
R. Execute
Lynkfox
As long as we go though the process yes. We can't become judge jury and executioner all in ourselves.
blaghart
You mean like the process ICE didn't go through here? in this post you made to farm karma? /gallery/ice-executes-citizen-broad-daylight-different-view-5pG8wQE This crime ICE committed that "the process" refuses to punish them for? This is the process you're advocating for, the one that encourages ICE to do this thing in this post YOU made, and get away with?
Lynkfox
No, I specially said "after we dismantle their corrupt versions" of the process.
Not the same. They deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent and beyond - that doesn't mean extrajudicial murders are justified. Even if the current process is broken.
Note murder. Not violence or killing. If we have to we have to in order to defend ourselves. But don't become them in hopes of stopping them
quietwalker
The thing is, it IS different. The odd thing is that you are using moral absolutism, where killing = killing regardless of context, and morals are always contextual.
What if the person is in unrecoverable pain and just wants to die? What if you use lethal force to protect yourself or others?
These folks are literally attacking people, attacking our system of rights and justice, and they're focused on those of us who are least able to defend themselves. Society would be better with them dead.
quietwalker
Don't fall into the false-intellectual's trap of believing that violence is a bad way to resolve problems. There are so many situations where it's the only realistic option and many more where it's simply the best option.
To dismiss it out of hand with the idea that it's somehow innately "bad" is neither rational nor smart.
Lynkfox
Didn't read it all did you?
I said very clearly that I expect violence will be the only way to solve this.
I also will point out I sad "murder" not killing
Lynkfox
I specifically called out that I expect violence to be the only solution
The part your misconstruing is *killing* vrs *murder*
Im not against people killing in self defense or the defense of another.
I am against people forming roaming death squads and becoming judge jury and executioner .... No matter which side of this evil they're on.
quietwalker
The problem with murder is that it's just a legal definition that means "convicted of non-legal killing".
When the enemy is the government and they make and define the laws, then you can't expect the legal definition to be on your side.
Lynkfox
And so then we should use our own morals and ethics. I am not talking about legalities here. I'm talking about my own morals of right and wrong. Killing someone cause they're trying to kill me is morally OK. I still don't want to kill anyone.
Seeking them out because they are a potential threat and killing them first is not okay to me.
Is that splitting hairs? Maybe. But that's often how principles work.
Lynkfox
I gave an example in another comment that works well:
Patrolling your city, and telling ICE to leave when you encounter them or they will be fired on? This is ok. This is protecting yourself and your community. Even if it means many people get killed, it's what we have to do to defend ourselves.
Ambushing them as they leave their hotel without warning and without a chance for a peaceful resolution (them leaving and not returning?) that's not ok. That's murder.
medimr
"We wouldn't want to give them a justification for the shit they're already doing!"
Someone equivocating "being an ICE agent" with "being an immigrant" can fuck right off. I'm not advocating gunning them down in the streets either, but this shit right here is little more than pathetic bootlicking...and not helpful in the slightest.
Lynkfox
I never said don't give them an excuse. I specific said we should fight *back*
But I'm also seeing people say *kill them all now, no trial, no courts, just kill them in the streets. Lynch them"
That's what I have a problem with.
xeoxion
If they ICE. Time to put them n ICE.
If you sit at a table with Nazis. You are a Nazi.
Ffs Delaney accomplice law states that the driver of a get away car faces murder charges if one of his crew kills anyone while in the commission of a crime. They are judged for the actions of the ones they roll with.
Trouble is there are no courts that judge ice. So the next step is social justice.
Or maybe you can write them a sternly worded letter to their mommies telling them they bad.
Lynkfox
You draw a conclusion that is not what i said. I never said we must sit with them. I never said we must tolerate them. I never said we must not fight
Patrol your city, tell them they must leave or you will fire upon them? That's right. That's justified from their actions. That's not tolerating their evil.
Ambushing them as they leave a hotel, with no chance for a solution that doesn't involve killing? That's not ok. That's becoming judge jury and executioner all by yourself.
xeoxion
Yall wanna be so high and mighty and not sink to their level.
These are trash that have kidnapped, rapped killed people under the name of the law. Yes under the law. Cause there is no legal repercussions for them at all
They count on this. You gotta know that right. They know you won’t fight back
They know they are complacent. They are the Nazis. If they wear the badge they are the SS
There a difference in retribution and being the murderers, rapists, destroyer of lives
Lynkfox
I never said I won't fight back. I said I won't seek them out like an assassin in the dark.
You're deliberately twisting the idea of not murdering them to be the same as not fighting, as giving up.
Don't be an idiot. Defending my community, with violence if need be, resisting in any way possible when they are out and about, is not being complacent. Is not giving up. It's not becoming them.
miserycones
Ah yes racist hatred of innocent people who moved to this country to improve their lives is totally the same as hating people who signed up to be kidnappers and murderers for the state /s
ClutterMonkey
Yes, “moved”. I moved into a bank while it was full of money and also moved into a Ferrari dealership to improve my life. I told them I live here now so they have to let me stay and never use any force to remove me. s/
SoftKleenex
We don't think like that here
ClutterMonkey
See the comment above I was responding to. FOR THE MOST PART people that are having negative interactions with ICE are either here illegally or have placed themselves in a situation to cause a negative interaction i.e. blocking traffic, impeding investigations, ramming vehicles, following vehicles, kicking vehicles. People that are here illegally did not “move” here through the proper channels of immigration and maintain a welcomed status.
xeoxion
There are no illegals on stolen land.
ClutterMonkey
That is catchy and popular to say but in no way grounded in reality.
Targe0
Once you let violence direct your hatred, it doesn't matter what the focus is.
It always leads to a bad place. Because it lets people dehumanise each other, and when you see the other side as less than human, it becomes much easier to do horrible things to them. Hate is hate, whither it is justified or not.
Hate is a corrupting force within a society. And once ideological differences are acceptable to settle with violent actions, it's hard to come back from that as a society.
Corrodias
But is that a problem? Is it something that needs to be come back from? We're not talking about "ideological differences", here. We're talking about state-sponsored violence that is going on _today_, unchecked.
Targe0
And a significant portion of the population ideologically agrees with that violence.
Nations that head down the violent solutions most of the time get stuck for long periods in stateless warlord eras, because those who have differing politics fight each other instead of political discourse and debate. It fundamentally breaks down structures that the democracy is built upon.
xeoxion
You have no political recourse anymore
They will put ice at polling stations so the make POC afraid to be false arrested and deported even though they are citizens. You lose the POC vote ya done
You already have lost all political recourse you just don’t realize it yet
You think the isreali cuck Dems are gonna take the right stand. You think they will vote against money
You need a relictsnt leader who cares not for money, power, sex
An Anti-hero. Who dis what’s right, not just to look good
xeoxion
Were the Nazis less than human? Yes
Are ICE less than human? Yes
Is Trump less than human. Ffs he’s not human just a walking talking bag of methane
They are so far down the rabbit hole of horrendous actions they lost their human card and need to be treated as such
All I’m seeing is harmless people like you. You’re not peaceful. Peaceful means you are capable of great violence but chose a different path. But when time comes you do what’s needed, might not be what’s good, buts what’s right
Targe0
I am not saying that things can't get to a point where violence is inevitable.
I am saying that going to that place can be dangerous because it is easy to turn violent, it's exceptionally hard for nations to stop using violence to solve their issues. You just need to look at every state that has fallen into decades of unrest, where political factions break off into guerrilla fighting forces and can remain even after the initial government they formed to fight is replaced. ->
Targe0
Many who suggest violent solutions do not think them through to where they lead.
Once you have an armed group enacting their political beliefs, there is no guarantee that they will stop that fighting when the Government is replaced, as history has ample examples of.
xeoxion
This is a logical fallacy, specifically the “slippery slope fallacy”
And the other choice is to lay down and take it. Yes fighting back will cause retribution. To have lost all other recourse to fight back except actually fighting back.
It will get far worse before it gets better. You have yet to reach the worst of the worst yet and you’re letting it happen knowing what you are doing is not having any result. They laugh at the protests and letters and words cause it matters naught.
xeoxion
You are already there
What’s needed is a lone wolf who hits ICE hard. There will be hard blowback. But the blow back is what’s needed to radicalize mass people to actually fight back
There will be a lot of death. Change requires great sacrifice
“I will burn myself for a sunrise I will never see” - Andor
This isn’t about you enjoying the peace after the fight. It’s about you sacrificing so the future can be better.
So many want to see change and live to see it. That’s how you already lost
Targe0
What you are suggesting would likely lead to a civil war.
And there's no telling which side would come out on top in such a conflict.
And that's the risk of violent protests, if they get out of hand their outcome is unpredictable.
Lynkfox
There is a great difference between protecting your city, your community, with a threat of violence : Ice leae or we will open fire. Vrs seeking them out and ambushing them with no hope for a non violent outcome.
Walk softly, carry a big stick right? We stand out ground. We fight if they won't back down. But we don't hunt them down in the dark and become judge jury and executioner
They're a threat. Defending people with violence backing you up? Yes that's what we do. Not hunting them down
Lynkfox
Ah yes. I didn't say that did I? I said killing them all without judge or jury is exactly the same thing they're doing.
Self defense? Yes. Fighting *back*? Yes.
Murdering them in the parking lots while they walk to their cars? You don't see how that's not a far step from what they do to others?
They aren't innocent. They need to be jailed, put on trial for their crimes, and then let justice do it's thing (be that imprisonment or death I don't care)
xeoxion
When the legal recourse is blocked as it is now with no repercussions for anything they do and it is only emboldening them even more. The only next solution is execution.
If they had fear of jail and repercussions they would back down. But the repercussions are not there. Therefore the only way to make them back down as the coward bullies they are is to make them fear for their lives every step they take.
Or just sit and wait for congress to hold them accountable. Which will never happen.
Lynkfox
I never said do nothing. I said don't become them. Don't do what they do just to fight them.
Patrol your city, tell them they must leave or you will fire upon them, give a non violent option a chance, no matter how slim? That's ok. That's what we should be doing.
Ambushing them at their hotel with no chance for a non violent outcome? That's just becoming them.
Don't give in, but also don't become the very thing were fighting
xeoxion
Ya. Telling them you will die on them.
That will go real well. How bout a warning shot also.
This is why they always and always will win. Rules of honor and surrender.
When I am in a fight. I fight to be last man breathing. I don’t fight by any rules. I will go for eyes,throat, knees, groin. I will dislocate break any joint I can. I will make it they will not get up of the ground.
Someone tries to kill you, you kill them first. Fuck rules of engagement. You fight only to win
No quarter
Lynkfox
There is a world of difference between someone in front of me actively trying to kill me and seeking out someone I haven't ever seen before to kill them first.
maybe that means I'll die because they get me first. That sucks but that's my line in the sand. I'm not an assassin. I'm not an invading army. I'm one man who has to be ok with my actions tomorrow.
If you really believe that why haven't you been out there taking them out?
Solifluction
It's not the same in any way.
"We" don't possess any means to elevate ourselves to the same position.
I can't go on the street and kill ice agents and not get arrested. Luigi Mangione is a key example of that.
However they can not only "get away with it" but they have the very people meant to help us supporting and defending the murder.
So. The system villifies us either way and protects its own. Therefore your example does not track. Both sides aren't equal.
xeoxion
He was sloppy and lazy and in front of others.
Quit being prey and become the predator.
There are many ways. And never be caught.
Lynkfox
I never said they were. I said that I don't want to become them. I said I don't want to kill because I want to, o Lt because I have to
Patrolling your city, telling ICE to leave or they will be fired upon, and then shooting if they refuse? That's self defense. We know they are a threat. That's ok. Gives a peaceful out, their retreat
Ambushing them at their hotel and killing them without warning? That's murder. That's what they would do. That's not ok l.
Solifluction
But you did say that. Exactly.
You cannot have it both ways. That's bootlicker behaviour. You can't be a pacifist until YOU are under attack. That's the point of the whole leopards eating faces meme. That's just you agreeing to accept brutality for others until it affects you personally and THEN getting indignant about it.
Also. Nobody is saying "ambush them at hotels". We're saying we already wanted you. You didn't leave. Game on.
Solifluction
Yeah. That wanted was supposed to be warned. But apparently I missed it.
Lynkfox
There is a vast difference between pacifist and what I said - if you're in danger fight back. If you're protecting your community fight. Take a look at what I said again real closely. You're drawing a conclusion that just because I don't think it's ok to form roving gangs to go find ice and kill them first that Im being a pacifist. You can properly defend yourself, your city, your people without seeking to kill without warning.
And yes. People are saying ambush them. Lots of people are.