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#bigpharma #medicineforprofit #lobbyingequalsbribery "a Missouri man died after being struck twice by a venomous snake because of his refusal to pay the high price of hospital care." Edit (source added): https://health.howstuffworks.com/medicine/medication/why-snakebite-antivenom-expensive.htm
(originally posted by @mynamejosejimenez on 2023-01-20 14:53:58)
SonnyUtahna
The US is a third world country.
rIOsK
Think about the communist Europe where that medication would cost 0
GnomeDeGuerre
US healthcare is a mafia hiding in plain sight. It would not be legal if there was a democracy.
digitalagriculture
Enough people think the ACA fixed everything that I expect nothing else will be done to fix our healthcare system in my lifetime.
Northwindlowlander
Depressingly the right wing/bootlicker response to this is usually "we subsidise the rest of the world, europoors couldn't afford medicine if not for us".
IUsedToHaveUsernameOnce
Oh yes, you get absolutely fucked over by where you live and by a post code. Use VPN when buying international flights
NariEllie
Interesting that its phrased he died " because of his refusal to pay the high price of hospital care", and not because the hospital refused life-saving medicine if there was nothing in it for them.
IxnayOnTheOttenRay
Wouldn't it be nice if they could use their VERY IMPORTANT science solely for helping people and not profits?
theodorebeare
We’re being played for suckers in the US and those who are supposed to be watching out for us are letting it happen
WilliamHag
Can someone tell me why it would be a bad idea to ban companies from selling products in America that have different ingredients as products sold with the same name or higher prices as other countries?
Misteree8
Capitalism. Price things by how much you can squeeze out the customer.
ageek3000
The fix is easy too... many countries have done it. The government just sets a price limit on each drug. Trump said he would fix it, but instead of actually fixing it, he just made it easier to order drugs from Canada where they actually do have a price limit on pharmaceuticals.
pattalam
Why nobody is buying it from Mexico and selling it US hospitals? Even if you have to smuggle it looks more profitable than cocaine, if OP is correct. Anybody in?
JamShady
"a medicine"? Not the same medicine??
maskedplant
The $100 medicine cost was cited from an AZ Central article. Said article was removed, and the original article in the way back machine gave no source for this figure. There are still tons of articles claiming this, but they all cite the AZ Central article as the source. I'm not saying this isn't a problem, but I have lived in AZ long enough to not trust AZ Central.
stonecw
The article also doesn't specify WHICH medicine is $100. I would hope for the sake of journalistic integrity they mean antivenom, but it certainly isn't clear. Words matter.
DarkZalgo
This. Antivenom is expensive no matter the country. It just isn't always paid out of pocket by the person receiving it.
depressedscientist
Big Pharma when faced with the facts: “it’s all the FDA’s and CDC’s fault for having such tight regulations… deregulate! Deregulate!”
lovehandlesmessiah
Yes, let’s go back to when the doctor whipped together homemade antibiotics diluted by accident in antifreeze and killed a bunch of kids. The sheer amount big Pharma spends on FDA audits and resulting fines is staggering.
Northwindlowlander
Which is hilarious, because it's (necessary) drug regulations that make price gouging possible, it's a perfect captive market.
Californiajackson
Tell the hospital, "Fine, I'll give it back", then go buy it in Mexico and give it to the hospital.
blaghart
Biden said he'd veto UHC. Twice. Including during covid. We literally need to depose both parties from power to fix this stupid bullshit
khora
A research group sounds like this was something hidden that took effort to figure out.
Lulabel73
In my country you wouldn’t even pay $100 (Australia)
akphil6691
Because in Aus all the venomous stuff kills you 100 times over before you can take two steps! Lol
FeloniousMonk13
Essential healthcare should not be a commercial venture.
stiklikegiant
It is literally unethical. It is evil to profit from illness.
xj4low
But why would they continue to develop new drugs if they can't make a profit on it? /s
digitalagriculture
Unfortunately, that thought is incredibly far left by American standards. Both parties love capitalism so much that we will never take the profit motive out of healthcare.
MacFarlin1920
Attitudes change but it takes a lot of work. The 1%ers having been working really hard at this for a long time. The rest of us need to start pushing back consistently and persistently. It will not happen over night but it can be done.
unluckyandbored
The system is not broken. It is working as intended--to funnel wealth from the poor to the rich.
cosinewave
For-profit research like Big Pharma is an inherently bad thing because it puts return on investment ahead of helping people. A better way may be to adopt the models used by the National Laboratory System and NASA to do fundamental research with the involvement of commercial ventures and not leave it up boards of directors to decide.
HappyLookouuut
This.
digitalagriculture
That would be nice, but taking the profit motive out of healthcare is too radical even for the Democrats.
LetThemEatPie
Location matters. If it's in a climate where it's more needed then it will be kept in stock everywhere. The same medicine might be $100k in northern Europe, not because it costs more to make, but because it costs more to get it to the patient in time
DameDePiques
Nope. No antivenom would cost 100k in Europe. This is nuts. US prices are fucked up.
LetThemEatPie
That's a different issue. It might still cost that much, it will just not be paid by the patient
DameDePiques
No. I agree that with healthcare, it's difficult to know the real price
stonecw
Hold up. Words matter here. The article states: "someone across the border in Mexico would only pay $100 for a medicine made by the same company, in the same factory" ... "A" medicine ... WHICH medicine? Antivenom? Tylenol? Based on the article, I would hope they're referring to antivenom, but it's not at all clear.
techymonkey
Which medicine costs $100 in Mexico? Is it the same one? The article and OPs post doesn't say.
TheWarHymn
I looked it up, and the drug in question is Crotalidae polyvalent immune fab antivenim marketed under CroFab. It is a antivenom derived from sheep subjected to doses of snake venom from the Crotalid family (rattlesnakes), which induces the animals to produce antivenom proteins in their blood. The blood serum is extracted & purified to isolate the proteins. 4 types of these proteins induced by different snake species are mixed together to increase their effectiveness against multiple species-->
TheWarHymn
Crofab sold in US and Mexico markets are essentially the same product from the same factory. According to a report by Dr. Leslie Boyer (who helped developed CroFab and used her contacts in the industry to figure out the numbers), actual cost for producing the drug is about $14 per vial. The drug wholesales in the US for under $300. The bulk of the patient-end price tag appears to be attributed to regulation, legal, & hospital charges for administrating the drug, according to Dr. Boyer. -->
BillandTedsUnremarkableTripToCostCo
The average wholesale price in the US is about $3200/vial. Patients generally need 4-6 vials, but some may need up to 12.
TheWarHymn
TheWarHymn
Source: https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(15)00781-0/fulltext
Jarjarthejedi
Antivenom isn't like advil, there's no such thing as "name brand". One batch of antivenom (for a specific snake, made via a specific method) is literally the same chemicals as another. It's exactly the same stuff in the US and Mexico cases.
techymonkey
Ok, but the article literally does not say which "medicine". just says "A medicine" and compounding facilities don't only make 1 kind of medicine at a time. So yes, it might be made at the same facility as the antivenom and absolutely only cost $100 and absolutely not be even close to the same drug. There's no real reason to believe it IS the same drug other than the article is purposefully vague and outrage sells.
Jarjarthejedi
...There's literally one 1 medicine for antivenom though, like, you get that right? It's not advil. If you get bitten by a rattlesnake, you need rattlesnake antivenom. There isn't "Big yellow's rattlesnake antivenom for MEN" and "Cobra-style rattlesnake antivenom", there's literally just "Rattlesnake Antivenom". It's all interchangeable, because that's what antivenom /is/. It's not drugs, it's antivenom.
Jarjarthejedi
There's literally 2 brands of rattlesnake antivenoms in the USA, ANAVIP and CROFAB. The only difference is one is made with horses and the other with sheep. The same factory making antivenom for the same snake is making the literal exact same chemicals every time. There isn't "name brand" antivenom, it's not a thing that exists. "Medicine" in the context of venom is antivenom, and factories don't produce multiple types of it, they only make 1.
Jarjarthejedi
The "reason to believe it is the same drug" is that /that's what anti-venom is/. You literally only differentiate it based on what animal is used to produce it (which no factory is going to use different animals, and they don't have significant cost differences) and what venom it treats. That's LITERALLY the only differences antivenoms have. Period.
techymonkey
See, you're assuming that the only thing the article can possibly be talking about when it says "a medicine" being produced costs $100 is antivenom. Even though I just told you that pharmaceutical compounding facilities produce many kinds of medicines at the same time. It's not Facility A produces ONLY product K...Facility A produces products K, L, W, and Q. That medicine could be anything and the article doesn't say what, just how much it costs, because outrage sells, like you're doing now.
CommentsThisTimeLastYear
Common far right response "They deserve to make a profit for something that they made" while completely ignoring the issue
sortofkindamadbutnotreally
Right wing guy here. The issue with the for profit system the US has is that its too regulated (and rightfully so in many ways) to function as a free market should. Should they make a profit for researching and producing a drug? Sure. But they do this on the backs of taxpayers (for research and production cost), and under layers of beaurocratic burden so cumbersome that no competition to lower prices through market forces could ever come into play. Its a racket of the absurdly wealthy.
PastureofMuppets
Healthcare shouldn't be for-profit. Things that keep people healthy and alive should be a basic right, along with nutritious food and safe shelter. People who want extra fancy food and extra fancy shelter can have the free market for that, but the necessities for a humane existence should be funded by society.
anarchoFeline
pictured: the "far right"
CommentsThisTimeLastYear
(originally by @FuzzBall87 on 2023-01-20 14:58:18)
CommentsThisTimeLastYear
Original post: /gallery/2Q7KJ5p
CommentsThisTimeLastYear
Original top comment: /gallery/2Q7KJ5p/comment/2299576949
ElecTech
I feel the key words are "... in a hospital..." I doubt it's the pharmaceutical company making that much from the sale of it.
werekoala
Where the fuck else is someone going to get medicine for an emergency condition? You can't exactly DoorDash that shit. Simp.
msclark5
ElecTech's right, Hospitals are as just as bad as pharma and insurance companies. https://time.com/198/bitter-pill-why-medical-bills-are-killing-us/ Ever heard about how they make up wildly inflated prices as negotiating tactics with insurance companies (look up 'chargemaster"). Then make the uninsured pay those rates? That's the just tip of the iceberg.
TheWarHymn
According to a scientist that helped develop the antivenom (CroFab), it costs $14 to make a vial, and the manufacturer wholesales each vial for about $200-$300. The rest of the bill are hospital, legal, and regulatory costs.
TheWarHymn
Sauce: https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(15)00781-0/fulltext
BigOrangeCats
Yeah I’ve seen hospitals bill insane amounts for OTC drugs. It’s not big pharma, it’s hospitals trying to make more money by charging bullshit prices to people forced to require their services, because they know insurance will be forced to pay them. And in turn, insurance companies try to increase their profits by not approving hospital services or just overall being shitty to their customers.
Rhythmaster
Through a complex gauntlet of hospital billing departments, for profit health insurance companies pharmaceutical companies and government lobbyists, everyone gets a chance to gouge the American citizen- sorry I mean, healthcare "consumer". In no other country does medicine cost this much, inside a hospital or not. They're all collaborating to fuck you, nobody is claiming only the pharmaceutical company is the one getting all that, it's a complex mix of parasitic industries all ganging up on ya.
ElecTech
Op's use of "Big Pharma" means they are claiming only the pharmaceutical companies are the ones "Getting all that".
digitalagriculture
You don't have to defend pharmaceutical companies, they're doing just fine on their own.
msclark5
omagouch is right, except that it isn't just about battling insurance companies. It's about hospital's top execs incomes and bonuses, their buying up clinics to charge unwarranted facility fees, consolidate markets so much that they can dictate what insurance pays (who pass it on to your premiums) and how even nominally non-profit entities act just like for profit ones. Everyone has their fingers in the pie. Blaming only one part just helps the others get away with their contribution..
omagouch
That's quite a leap, even if your right. Hospitals are notorious for charging exorbitant amounts of money for the simplest of items due to constantly battling insurance companies. It's all a racket driven mainly by corporate profit driven insurance companies.
Kitehammer
Are you suggesting Mexico doesn't have hospitals, or that American hospitals are just orders of magnitude more expensive to operate?
ElecTech
No. I'm suggesting American hospitals gouge their "customers" exorbitant rates for treatment they can't do without (in the name of profits) and if a person can't afford it then they are not the target market.
msclark5
No he's suggesting that U.S. Hospitals buy pharmas already overpriced drugs, then mark them up another order or two of magnitude so their top administrators can make 7 digit incomes while nickel and diming staff to the point of being unsafe. And I'm suggesting that people reflexively blaming it all on drug companies (who are plenty guilty too) help them get away with this and worse.
Kitehammer
You don't have to convince me that MBAs are a plague on (among others) the healthcare industry, I'm already there.
WellThatsOriginal
The issue I have with big pharma is that they use our tax payer money for R&D and then stick it in our asses sideways when we need the drug.
kilgoth1
Well... all the money is here.
TeamToasterNeverForget
While I totally agree that medical companies mostly are the scum of the Earth this is a little misleading. For instance people were complaining the Covid vaccines’ R&D was paid for by the taxpayers. Moderna spent iirc 3,4B developing their vaccine. Government gave them 72M of that money..So it’s true that government pays for some R&D but it is not even close to all of it.
HandoB4Javert
CommodusLeitdorf
That and countries with healthcare, as the government is the only buyer, can negotiate prices. Something that here in the US we cannot do. Its why talks about how much Medicare for all will cost are silly as they don't factor in the elimination of price gouging.
nubblebun
America isn't a country, it's just a shady business out for as much profit and as quickly as possible.
Frenchgeek
But if they don't get that money, how could they bribe politicians for more tax breaks?
WellThatsOriginal
Maybe they could pull up their boot straps...lol
notsurewhattocallthis
Pull them up so hard by their bootstraps it chokes 'em..
CloakedFigure
Not one part of this entire system is operating in our best interest.
WellThatsOriginal
Truer words have never been spoken
iovebeans
No, just as designed.
CloakedFigure
msclark5
If only it were that simple. The system isn't working at designed because there is no system. The closest thing to a system are a bunch of ad hoc patches. I'm not saying there are no powerful interests that benefit from keeping the status quo. There are. But they didn't design anything, they just took advantage of opportunities the dysfunction created and don't want them to end. Conspiracism gives them way too much credit.
lujotu
Very true. The system developed mostly organically, and with profit motive as the driving force, with someone siphoning money off every step of the way. Just because there are bad actors doesn't mean it's a giant evil plan.
msclark5
Yes, this person gets it! Really every part of the U.S. Health care system is or has contributed to how dysfunctional the whole system is. Even at times, people trying to get health care, though we're more often at the bottom of a chain of perverse incentives. It's mostly about each component trying to advantage itself when it can and being unconcerned or unaware of the costs they externalize. And each trying to shed what was dumped on them further downstream.
CloakedFigure
Yep. I believe ‘predatory’ is the appropriate term to be used here.
LetheTheArtificer
Not if "our" ='s Americans specifically, no. Silver lining in Pharma and Medical side of things is that humanity as a whole usually benefits. Often drugs are cheaper outside the US due to laws or economic reasons. Americans often subsidize the world in that regard.
Camelspotting
People say this but I'm not sure it's accurate. Like Bayer or Roche seem to have no problem doing R&D or making billions in profit.
LetheTheArtificer
America has and continues to lead the world in medical/medicinal patents for years. Pharmaceutical companies charge more here because they can. They absolutely will profit where they can but they can drain more from the American side generally. It's not really anything new at all.
disposablewords
If we subsidize the world in that regard, it's because it's through our taxes and government grants to fund R&D. The majority of such is publicly funded. Then the profits are privatized, which is where we're getting reamed. The rest of the world would still be fine if we weren't getting fucked over on this, because the costs wouldn't shift meaningfully - they're already on our backs.
LetheTheArtificer
(This is not saying I like the current version, it could be run so much more efficiently that it's not even funny to consider otherwise. I'm just saying there is some good in what's done, but recognize too that the good can be so much better.)
digitalagriculture
That's because both Republicans and Democrats agree that a profit motive in healthcare is good, they only differ in the degree of that motive.
potshot
A profit motive is a pretty good motivator in R&D. The problem isn't drug companies looking for a profit, it's allowing them to pursue it without regulation.
digitalagriculture
Profit motive is not good. Profit motive means diseases or conditions with limited impact don't get funding. Profit motive means diseases affecting the "global south" don't get attention. Profit motive means they have the incentive to push addictive opioids on the public. We could address these problems (and the additional problems too numerous to list) with a bunch of neoliberal band-aids, or we could actually fix the problem by removing the profit motive and funding things centrally.
RockKickass
I believe democrats have been pushing for lower prices and universal healthcare for a while now. Biden just lowered insulin prices along with other life saving drugs. Wouldn’t really put them in the same bucket
digitalagriculture
A few Democrats are pushing, but they have to fight the more numerous conservative members of the party who believe in and benefit from the current system. There are not enough Democrats who want UHC to actually make it happen even if they get a majority in government.
RockKickass
Yes, but you made it sound like they both want a profit system when in fact democrats don’t.
digitalagriculture
Not enough of them want UHC, I think that means they want a for-profit system. It sucks that the furthest right Democrat gets to dictate what is possible, but that's what we're stuck with.
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
Country-level pricing is done on basically everything, not just drugs. As a Canadian we tend to get hosed on American products, because they set Canadian prices higher regardless of the actual difference in currency. I remember accidentally going to ap.com">gap.com instead of gap.ca once, it was Black Friday and I was like, wow, this sale is amazing!!! I loaded up my cart, went to check out, and realized it was the US site. So I went to gap.ca, added the same products to my cart, and womp womp. It /1
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
was over 60% more expensive. And the US dollar was definitely not that strong against the Canadian one. Even now it's 1.35, and that's low, historically. So we're just getting ripped off, basically. Every international company has different pricing for different countries. You simply can't charge as much in Mexico as you can in a richer country. /2
ageek3000
It is actually more expensive for companies to operate in Canada... minimum wage is higher, fuel costs are higher, company provided healthcare benefits are more costly, etc. So, you can't expect the GAP to price everything in Canada as if they're just doing a currency exchange -- there's way more to it than that. I saw this first hand once... an Ontario tomato is cheaper in Wisconsin than it is in Ontario (because it costs less to get it on the shelf in Wisconsin than in Ontario).
rainehdaze
sure, but if you have a 79x-390x price difference on the exact same product in two areas right next to each other, it's probably not a comparative pricing thing.
InkyBlinkyPinkyAndClyde
Part of it is that the US in particular gets ripped off for medical supplies, because of the lack of regulation. But if you compare the Canada pricing to the Mexico pricing, Canada's will definitely be higher because Canada's a richer country.
rainehdaze
I also imagine Canada has less call for snake antivenom, especially snakes common on the mexican border