DaFunOne
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Google has been fined a record $2.7 Billion by the EU.
Half the debate is the EU targeting American businesses for large fines.
The other half of the debate is how the EU wants to better regulate companies that control the internet, our searches, and our very spending.
This very debate is quite interesting as I can see a stance on either side. One can easily make a credible argument that no foreign government has the right to specifically target American businesses just because they have such large revenues. They can argue further that this is systematic, hurting American businesses and taking large amounts of money away from our businesses that can easily be put forth towards more jobs, something this administration has pushed at its very core.
The other side can easily argue that an unregulated internet and the massive companies that mainly profit from it allows companies to break us down systematically, forcing their own terms, products and services on us, almost all but eliminating choices. One can further argue that such businesses have no intention of putting such funds back into jobs or their own company, all but ensuring the gap between the 1% and the rest of us increases at alarming rates.
I for one would love to hear your thoughts on the matter, and why you feel the way you do. For me, I weigh worst case scenario for either side of the debate, and I personally believe an unregulated internet and unregulated companies such as Google will run free if such action as this is not taken. As with any professional debate, I am absolutely open to respectful opinions because, as I mentioned, both sides definitely have an argument.
Sources -
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/27/technology/eu-google-fine.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/google-fine-eu-record/
http://www.businessinsider.com/enormous-google-fine-shows-how-tough-eu-can-be-big-tech-companies-2017-6
http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/27/technology/business/google-eu-antitrust-fine/index.html
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2017/06/27/eu-hits-google-with-record-2-7b-antitrust-fine.html
DoseOfScience
+1 for including numerous sources.
lordyhalvey
Balance. But not imposed by greed.
AoShin
WHAT????!! You mean that when a company operates in a country, they need to follow that country's laws? OUTRAGEOUS!!!
DrShrinker
No one forces the public to use google. They can use bing, yahoo, DuckDuckGo and so on. If yer gunna Google, expect to see Googles products.
jmschappel
Google isn't an American business. It's a multinational corporation.
PhailRaptor
Frankly, we should stop pretending that corporations have citizenry rights. You follow the laws where you operate, not based on origin.
Horsed
The U. S. Also targeted the (German if you didn't know) company VW for their Diesel engines so it's actually quite common to follow the 1/2
Horsed
2/2 laws of the country you are doing business in
Terminology
They are not specifically targeting US businesses. Google is the largest at what it does and it offers services in the EU. Simple.
CatsIsTheAnswer
Also, aren't most Google's competitors US based?
Bugofbelgium
A huge amount of US based companies probed the EU to investigate this.
removekarling
Google is completely unaffected by the fine, they have some 90 billion dollars IN CASH, in accounts in and outside of Europe. (1)
removekarling
They were pushing for their own products in searches. If google wants to deal with the EU they need to follow its regulations. This is (2)
removekarling
really a non-debate. Google of course will fight the fine as much as they can but even if/when they are fined, it won't even scratch them
ChloePrice
I think it's pretty straightforward. If a foreign company operates in a different jurisdiction, they're to follow those rules.
humaneffigy
That was never money that was going to go towards jobs, that shows a juvenile view of this.
sumowoman
"corporation is my friend!"... Oh, honey.
humaneffigy
If they just pay a little less and charge a little more they'll roll that money over into hiring more people and the world will be saaaved.
sumowoman
I love that sarcasm.
LiterallyWorseThanHitler
I don't see how where the company is based matters. If they do business in the EU, the EU is fully justified in dealing out punishments.
AnHonestLiar
They have offices and employees here. It'd be different if their dealings were entirely digital but they're incorporated in Dublin iirc.
Rangerpm
I saw this on the Phillip defranco show
docsage
It's big news, as your sources would indicate. I feel lots of people are talking about it?
Darktemis
This is such a skewed view of american exceptionalism. Google profits from the EU, therefore it's subject to EU regulation, end of story.
nonamejanie
Because google isn't advertising it *Drum riff* hahahah
Walatalalaw
Funny you say that, 'cause I remember a large american company, Philip Morris, suing Australia over cigarette boxes. But we can't sue back?
DukePhelan
A corporation suing a nation is a bit different from a nation state or confederacy or whatever the hell the EU is suing a corporation.
oldandbored
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/epic/ftse100/9876466/Fears-over-extortionate-US-fines-on-British-firms.html ...1
oldandbored
1st link i clicked, there are others ...2
eion85
Having a monopoly brings one under close scrutiny by regulators. Such is the price of high market share. That's not a bad thing.
WestOfAppalachia
I think the word you're looking for it "Dominant Position", the term used in EU antitrust law. Google has about 90 % of the search engine
WestOfAppalachia
market according to the decision :-) (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-1784_en.htm)
eion85
I do have US perspective http://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/monopolization-defined
WestOfAppalachia
"Courts do not require a literal monopoly". Indeed, that does explain it :-)
JAC0BY
No no no. Google is not a monopoly. There are many other options for web searchs. We use Google because it is the best product.
eion85
It doesn't matter how they obtained their market share. They own ~75% of the search market now. They're a monopoly. That doesn't mean >
eion85
< they have to be broken up or anything like that, but when you're a monopoly you can expect extra scrutiny, like Microsoft got over IE.
BlackwitchWizard
I do not think monopoly means what you think it means... I can go use a bunch of different search engines right now if I want to.
eion85
And it's important to remember that google doesn't make their money from searches. They make their money from ads.
eion85
You seem to be using a dictionary when you should use a law book. Look to Microsoft for inspiration.
BlackwitchWizard
I'll admit I dont know when a market power becomes a monopoly, but i can not use google a lot easier than microsoft
RepostFromLastWeek
The service they apparently were promoting isn't available in my country (EU) so I didn't even know it existed until I saw this in the news.
RepostFromLastWeek
As for the "big American corporations target for their big revenues" that is some borderline tin foil hattery.
questionableanswers
Yupp. The EU regulary goes after companies based in the EU if they do shady shit. Doesn't matter where you're based, follow the law.
nitrojunky24
IDK what with targeting the USA stuff if you operate in regions you have to follow there rules if you don't like it stay out pretty simple.
AnHonestLiar
Also google are incorporated in Dublin, Ireland. They have an office and they employ people in the EU, laws apply just like any other compny
nitrojunky24
That said of course companies are going to promote there own product with bias are people mentally retarded or something? Stupid and waste
nitrojunky24
Just wasting everyone time and money if you ask me.
SanguineKnave
You really contradicted yourself there. "They have to follow laws and regulations where they operate but not anti trust laws"
questionableanswers
http://lmgtfy.com/?s=b&q=anti+trust+laws
Ramiusalpha
So IP lock all non U.S. searches so they cant use google?
CatsIsTheAnswer
Doing business in other countries requires compliance of said countries' regulations. Are we even talking about this?
idonthaveauser
That is not in googles interest.
Honorius77
It's not in the EUs either. That's the point.
clk62
Difference is EU consumers can easily turn to another similar provider. Google can't easily find another similar market.
questionableanswers
google is more popular in the EU than in the US. Losing the EU as a market would cripple alphabet/google.
nanyatenyaa
How is it more popular? It's the only thing any one uses.
DreamingDemon
As a European, it's not about being American. If they want to do business in our country then they need to follow our market rules (1/2).
nanyatenyaa
Some of the rules in some.countries make no sense though.. like outlawing encryption. Silliness.
[deleted]
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WestOfAppalachia
The airlift was to West Berlin and cost about $2.25-5.03 billion in today's value, a cost shared by the US, the UK and West Germany.
WestOfAppalachia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Blockade#End_of_the_blockade Last paragraph under "End of the blockade"
JAC0BY
The fine isn't fair. It's for advertising their own product. It's like going to Walmart and they show an advertisement for great value brand
DreamingDemon
Apart from Walmart make a profit from all sales. Google make more money from their own feature than sending people next door. (1/2)
DreamingDemon
Also, they shouldn't be the judge of consumer value in this situation and someone else decided. (2/2)
DreamingDemon
They just another global corporation who pick and choose the rules that apply to them (2/2)
Muad
I believe the EU is partly to blame for not reining in its own tax havens. Iirc, google uses Ireland for this purpose.
DreamingDemon
It's also hard when Ireland is happy with the arrangement. Tax is a competitive market.
Muad
Yeah, of course. The corporation wins a lot, one country wins a little, everyone else loses. It's no good!
neithermenoryou
It's not about paying their taxes, at all. Market regulations are completely different shoe.
notjustafoxyface
They fined Apple for not paying enough tax in Ireland
ArandomDane
So you think that because taxes are lower its ok for companies not to follow the regulations that are in place?! How exactly does that work?
Muad
Sorry, I wrote very unclearly. I did not mean that at all.
WestOfAppalachia
+1 for clarifying it was a misunderstanding
tomobach
I think it's a bit silly. If you go to a shop to buy something would you expect them to tell you everybody else's prices first? (1/2)
Mithi
Flawed analogy. We are not talking about a random store here.
tomobach
Either put in the effort to scroll past the Google owned products or just don't use Google if it bothers you that much. (2/2)
ThrowawayHBS
Completely agree! This should be the top comment. People are treating Google like it is a public good/service, when its a private company
Contrarianpov
The only bad business is the one in bed with government, but you don't punish the business. They're all trying to get the same upper hand.
Contrarianpov
You hold the REPRESENTATIVES accountable. This isn't even a debate.
betatestedyourgirlfriend
these are multinational operating companies. The EU has the same right to punish Google like the US had with Volkswagen.
icantbelieveijoined
US has no right to punish VW for what VW does in Germany. And that is kind of what is going on here.
ashgrave
Volkswagen was lying about emissions? What did google do, have too much market share? Do European keyboards not have the letters b i n g?
Jineapple
They unfairly favored companies they owned themselves by showing those first.
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Jineapple
Walmart is a store, google is a search engine. People don't expect that the results are unfairly weighted towards their own products.
SleepyKitten
This sounds like the same thing the American government did to VW with the EPA issues. VW is not the only car company to do what they did.
andaevinn
The US has been targeting euro companies throwing a shade on US business for years and nobody bats an eye... Airbus, VW, Swiss Banks...
DukePhelan
Airbus. A EU government backed 'company' created to 'level the playing field' against a american corporation with EU government funding.
idonthaveauser
indeed. And the EU is targeting companies of all nations including EU, if the operate (and misbehave) on the EU market.
DoseOfScience
The first argument, I fell, doesn't hold water. The fine is there and can be thought of as 'if you function here, you follow our rules'. 1
DoseOfScience
*I feel. Dammit.
Bugofbelgium
Pretty much everyone feels that way too, almost nobody is playing the "America innovates, Europe regulates" card here.
khora
Very often when a EU company is successful it is bought by a US company.
DoseOfScience
Even if it is EU protectionism for Linux (which is from the EU), they'd still have the power. Google 'could' exit the EU if they wanted.
Bugofbelgium
?
DoseOfScience
Essentially, google could simply refuse to comply with their laws and not do business there. Unlikely though.
Bugofbelgium
Hah, unlikely! Google will pay or settle this, they cannot afford to lose half the western world's market share.
Igut
Yeh, Eu is so useless. Only 510million inhabitants versus 321 million in USA
DoseOfScience
It's coming from a place of regulating market size, and preventing monopolies, which the US has been incredibly lax about enforcing. 2
Halykan
It's not lassitude, it's a difference of opinion.
DoseOfScience
Laws haven't changed to my knowledge, it's purely enforcement.
DoseOfScience
I understand the fear of market control and monopolies, but I'm not sure how much this will help. Reminds me of when US attacked MS for 3
DoseOfScience
including IE and other software with windows early 2K and 'strangling' the market. Not sure the legal battle helped though.
SanguineKnave
Forcing a change in search rankings has a huge effect on traffic. This case will probably make a big difference to their competitiors
mineovermatter
You should go back and read what was happening at the time.MS was *very*.clearly engaging in monopolistic anti-competitive behaviour.
mineovermatter
Apple was leaving the office space,perhaps going under.MS financed them to make it look like they weren't a monopoly.
Wuesti
I think the first argument, Europe is hunting American businesses, is downright wrong, in my opinion. Europe wants a fair market and 1
Wuesti
Google puts businesses that either pay them or belong to them, on the top of the search list regarding their specialities or products 2
Wuesti
harming new businesses that work in the same market but who have no contract with Google or just not as much money as the others. That was 3
Wuesti
as far as I know, the main point of the fine. Foreign businesses can thrive just as much as european, in the EU.
potshot
I mean they are targeting American businesses, sure, but that's because in general, EU businesses don't practice business in a way that's(1)
potshot
illegal in the EU.(2)
DrSparken
They're not targeting american businesses, they're targeting businesses with scummy practices that are illegal in the EU; which just 1/
DrSparken
happen to be quite promoted in the US so many US companies do it. 2/2
potshot
Those businesses are typically American. They are targetting businesses that are American, ergo, they're targetting American businesses.(1)
potshot
True, they aren't being targetted for the nationality, but for traits which are typical for American businesses. (2)
anyofmany
they exploited their monopoly position- there are laws against that. This has nothing to do with a made up war against the US
SnartHelg
aren't they incorporated in Ireland or something? That's part of the EU unless we finally annexed them
donlocke
This.
DukePhelan
Right because the EU has never used a government backed entity to punish a US corporation. Airbus.
5d1x654fsdf29
There may be a slight taste of revenge, though (think of the several billion penalties Volkswagen and Deutche Bank had to pay a few yrs ago)
KingBamboo
I hope you're just kidding!
Grymhar
Whatever the motivation, all of those penalties were more than deserved. As long as malicious behaviour gets punished, I'm all for it.
Rasdwatrium
So when two German companies fuck up the whole EU goes on a which hunt on US corporations? Please tell me you are kidding.
5d1x654fsdf29
This is definitely not why I am saying and it's way more complicate and subtle than that, hence my writing "slight" taste of.
ashgrave
They don't have a monopoly. Mono means one. Do European keyboards not have the letters B I N G? This is want we call in the US, stealing.
JAC0BY
BlackwitchWizard
yea, as a generally alive and conscious person, I have enough free will to check out things beyond google, its a wild 'net out there
Guitardrumr
How did they exploit it? Because they said, 'Hey, we also offer these services'? Cause they aren't being accused of blocking searches.
neithermenoryou
Results are groomed to specifically advertise google products instead of competitors, even when you search for a competing service directly.
Guitardrumr
Examples? Because I can google them and see them.
ArandomDane
As by the report, they did not remove the others they made sure there own where on top.
ChlorideCull
In this case it's Google Shopping. Abusive conduct in EU anti-trust law is very vague, it can apply to anything that limits competition (1/2
ChlorideCull
by bundling products or entering new markets by using your already dominant position in a market. (2/2)
BlackwitchWizard
I guess it sucks to be good at what you do in the EU?
Demonicjapsel
nope, we just don't want Comcast :P
polmyrr
why were they fined though?
clk62
Non-respect of EU antitrust rules
questionableanswers
http://lmgtfy.com/?s=b&q=anti+trust+laws
CatsIsTheAnswer
[1]AFAIU: Google provides a service that compares prices for the same good on multiple online shops: Google Shopping (GS). GS results always
CatsIsTheAnswer
[2]show up right at the top of the page in a dedicated space, while results from similar competing services are listed in lower positions or
CatsIsTheAnswer
[4]possibilities to reach potential customers. (AFAIU: as far as I understand)
CatsIsTheAnswer
[3]subsequent pages. Having Google an almost-monopoly on the search engine market, these conducts significantly jeopardize the competitors'
jayhawker33
Yeah but I don't really see a problem with that. Of course you would
CatsIsTheAnswer
"You" as us european? I don't think any of the competitors are based in EU
jayhawker33
Advertise your own stuff first. If you went to a store and asked for the eggs would you be mad if they didn't point to another store lol 2/2
Aesurah
Google avoids taxes in like every region it can. Including the US.
neithermenoryou
It's not about taxes, it's about market regulations.
nanyatenyaa
This is the same way that hr block states they can help you get a bigger tax return on income tax, by following the law.
nanyatenyaa
In abiding by those laws properly you can take advantage of built in incentives...
nanyatenyaa
All businesses do this, they hire a tax attorney to review their complicated taxes to assure they abide by laws.
nanyatenyaa
It's not tax evasion, it's following the tax code. They've been upfront about this that they hire tax attorneys to leverage the code.
Aesurah
Oh I know. Just because it's legal doesn't make it a good thing. Plus I was tired so should have said minimisation not evasion
nanyatenyaa
It's just following the law... much like you can deduct things at the end of the year.
Aesurah
Of course, but just because politicians made laws that allow it, doesn't make it a good thing.