Ioftenpretendtobeapotato
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Apr 11, 2024 12:51 AM
Ioftenpretendtobeapotato
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BubblesTheFish
I was the same, but then you learn about the actual history of Israel and it's deplorable all the way down.
Narwhilian
Hey @OP just wanted to say good on you for adjusting your point of view when presented with additional information, context, and time. Seems like a lot less people have been doing this so like thanks for being reasonable
codenameRadical
I generally support defense of people, and all that, but yeah, exactly. They've proven that they aren't interested in peace or order. They've proven that they're not purely acting to protect themselves. The war crimes are overwhelming. The genocide is overwhelming. Watching them spiral for the last couple decades has been disappointment after disappointment.
TheyDontKnowAndYouCantTellEm
Terrorism, whether 9/11 or October 7th, is not justification for genocide.
proxy5000
just for lil context
proxy5000
the classic
Theshnazzyone
Always has been, I stopped supporting Israel when I saw them for what they were over the last 2 decades under Netanyahu. Colonialist bullies
Volimar
I was afraid it would be like this. A nation that answers children throwing rocks by shooting them isn't going to exercise restraint.
oozabooza
Agreed with you. Not only have they lost their moral high ground they've lost their gott damn minds! I was very pro Israel before this. Had my Bar Mitzvah there. Wanted to go back. I will never go back to that place now. Fuck what they are doing. And fuck us for not holding a stronger position against them. But still, vote for Biden because the alternative will be even worse.
RedWingedBlackbirds
A start?
/gallery/rvJ8y0T
Ioftenpretendtobeapotato
notacobra
Sorry OP, because I don't mean this to be offensive.
If that was what you originally believed, then it shows you were kept in a bubble of propaganda.
Israeli oppression of the people of Gaza is not new, it's not some unusual escalation. It has been constant and varying in degree for decades.
The actions of Hamas came as a cornered snake biting at the vole who has tormented them for however long.
The analogy breaks apart when the vole genocides all reptiles and claims it's due to the snake.
forelle
When the whole thing started it wasn't hard to predict that the retaliation would be over the top. Not because of anything with religion, but because of who Netanyahu is. If you're against fascists at home you better be against them abroad.
Alvatore
It's hard to be "against fascists at home" when you are in fact a fascist yourself. Trying to build an ethnostate is the pinnacle of fascism. It reminds me of someone else who once tried to build an ethnostate, back in 1930s Germany.
TheWeirdGuyBehindYou
I was radicalized in 2014 by the poem "Rascal Children of Gaza". Give it a read.
Miller16of16
If you're a US citizen you have no choice but to support them. All you can do is object while your taxes get spent propping em up.
jfitz
Changing your thinking like this is admirable, well done. There is more to learn.
badgesweedontneednostinkingbadges
If they wanted revenge, it would have been over before the start of November. But genocide takes a little bit longer.
cultus
terrorism is not an answer to terrorism
spazztastic
25 miles of land...pretty ridiculous
duktayp
Netanyahu: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Slayage
It's not just Netanyahu. For months now they have a government of national unity. From left to right and everything in between. All of them are genocidal. To blame all on Netanyahu is a spin to make Israël look good again for when Netanyahu is gone. And I'm not even talking about 85% percent of Israelis that support everything that is happening.
demosteness
And those who support him.
Navrodel
"A response" was warranted and practically required. But in a world where we can snipe leaders from a mile away without a single risk to a civilian, why the fuck would the response to a terrorist attack be the single most likely way to cause collateral damage and make more terrorists?
Their stated goal is to end Hammas. The only way to do that with the method they're currently employing is to kill all Palestinians. Nothing they've done hints that they'd have a problem with that.
Alvatore
If they exterminate every living thing inside Gaza, that would mean there's nobody to object to them digging a canal wider than the Suez through that area that empties into the Red Sea and strips Egypt of its power, no? It would mean there's nobody to object to putting up drilling rigs to get at all that offshore natural gas which is worth tons of money, no? It sounds like conspiracy, but..
TigerThong
the leaders get replaced daily. you need to find and break the tunnels that are key to your enemies operations. If they build tunnels under hospitals and residential blocks do you just let them stay so it can happen again?
Alvatore
No tunnels have been found "under hospitals" except the ones Israel itself built back in the 70s.
proxy5000
EaNasirIsABastard
Supposing you could locate a leader who is standing by a window at a regular schedule where you can send a sniper team into enemy territory to eliminate him. How many times do you think you would need to repeat the kill leader and wait for the next one to be promoted process before the threat has disappeared?
You have an unrealistic view of combat, killing a leader causes a short term disruption and is a major operation, that relies on rare windows of opportunity.
Navrodel
Okay, I'll easily cede that "concentrated missions to kill singular targets with pinpoint accuracy" is ineffective for the tier of effort it requires, but I hope my meaning isn't lost just because my proposal went so far to an extreme as to be tactically stupid.
The point is, there are methods of hunting an organization that's gone to ground that are orders of magnitude less genocidal than "evacuate whole areas and kill anyone that's left." You don't do what Israel is doing just as a "response."
EaNasirIsABastard
If you have an effective intelligence network yes. If nobody from their side is talking to you and you haven't broken their encryption your options are fly around and look for targets or a ground invasion. If you are saying they could do the ground invasion more carefully I agree with you, but it's not at all like there is an easy way to clear Hamas and not harm civilians.
ThingsThatDontJustifyGenocide
The IDF is also a terrorist organization, founded by terrorists, and was IN THE WRONG FROM THE START.
Israel NEVER HAD the moral high ground. Israel killed more civilians than that in 2014 ALONE, and has killed over 6000 palestinians JUST IN CONFLICTS since 2008. That DOES NOT INCLUDE all the palestinians that simply get disappeared, or die from abuse at the hands of the IDF.
Hamas killed civilians, and of course we condemn civilian deaths.
RenaissanceFaireMan
Killing innocent people is just going to create a new generation of terrorists.
TigerThong
and doing nothing will only allow for more attacks. when you can urban war with an enemy that fights from ambulances with out civilian casualties I'll promote you to general of the world
belongsinamuseum
I cannot imagine the number of awful terrorist attacks we (The West) will see in the next two decades+ as a result of Israel’s embarrassingly ham-fisted approach to defeating Hamas, whatever that means.
colesutra
That's the plan. That's always the plan.
SergeyPrkl
Well if you kill them ALL, there will not be new generation. /s.
Honestly, this has been the way in the region last 10000 years.
mstalltree
One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. Palestine has a right to be free of occupation and oppression.
TigerThong
and Israelis have a right to living with out rockets and suicide bombs
Alvatore
Then maybe the Israelis should step up, get rid of their entire current government, and install one that won't continue being the source of the problem.
IhopeyougetstageIIIcoloncancer
Israel was founded by forcibly displacing Palestinians, and has spent its entire tenure continuing to annex territory, further displace Palestinians, and demonizing their existence.
Nobody has the right to murder civilians, but what has happened is more akin to a child stabbing a parent that has been molesting them for years while the other parent watched silently because they didn't want to break up the family over something "unimportant".
IhopeyougetstageIIIcoloncancer
What you're seeing happen needs to be considered in its appropriate context: Israel has spent generations working towards this because their end goal is the eradication of Palestine as a land and as a people. Their senior politicians and military leaders have made repeated public statements to this effect.
The only thing that's different now is that Israel decided they had leeway to fully unmask, but misjudged how much the rest of the world was ready for the truth.
Kompi
Very on point and succinct. The other reason why you see this escalation mirrors why Putin decided to invade Ukraine so haphazardly, both leaders know that this is their only real opportunity to get their measures through, so they push through lives be damned.
InfocalypseRising
I would disagree that they ever had the moral high ground to begin with, but congrats on seeing the light I suppose
SomeDetroitGuy
I don't understand how to read your comments other than as support for murdering innocent civilians. Please, elaborate.
ontarioOT
The history of Israel and Palestine didn't start on October 7, 2023. There are many informative videos you can watch if you are unaware of the apartheid Palestinians have been living under for decades as a result of official Israeli policies. I grew up sheltered from a Palestinian perspective, so it took me a while to learn and incorporate it into my worldview.
InfocalypseRising
Yeah, obviously the October attack was awful. But like, when you keep an entire population under your thumb for literally generations and they finally fight back you don’t get to act all outraged and use it as an excuse to murder children and aid workers.
AsABiologistWhoIsNotFunAtParties
I also wonder if Netanyahu wanted it to happen, to give him an excuse to destroy and resettle Gaza. Between the fact that they had intelligence such an attack was imminent, the fact that he personally allowed money to be transferred to Hamas from out of the country, an the fact that somehow they didn't even watch their only 32-mile border with Gaza and it took the IDF over 10 hours to respond and engage the attackers, either he wanted it to happen or is staggeringly incompetent. Anyone>
AsABiologistWhoIsNotFunAtParties
>concerned about the safety of Israelis first priority should be getting rid of the current Israeli government, because anyone else wouldn't have let the attack happen let alone let Hamas pillage for 10 hours unabated.
Puvaradivi
The conflict between Isreal and Palestine has gone on for a long time and has a very long history. Unless you're a history enthusiast, you've probably only heard one side, and even then not even much of that side unless you're into politics. Consider it a good thing if something you've learned has helped you to change your views (in any issue). Not everyone can admit they were wrong, or even accept new information as truth, when it goes against their current views.
rubypilgrim
The history here is so morally tangled that it's all but impossible to tell "good guys" from "bad guys". Why was Israel formed? Because anti-semitic idiots had a problem - what to do with the Jews the concentration camps didn't kill. Good - these victims of horrific genocide would finally get their home. Bad - their home was already someone else's home. It just goes dizzyingly on like that. There's no way to definitively say "this is good, this is bad" - you either have endless killing, or -
rubypilgrim
you just say fuckit, we can't keep doing this - and you get together and craft something new. Apparently we haven't reached that fuckit state yet.
Shoutrr
the moral entanglement stops when one side uses their global support to steal land to the other side and constantly harass and punish them if they try to defend themselves. Israel created the hamas by their actions, and constantly funded them and supported them to use them as an excuse to stop any attempt at peace, and now use them to solve the problem, just like the nazi tried to solve "the jew problem".
ThingsThatDontJustifyGenocide
It's not that long of a history. The conflict starts with terrorism in the late 1940s, and continues with terrorism all the way until today(whenever tis comment is read), and that terrorism is committed by the IDF, or the pre-IDF in the late-1940s who all went on to be folded into the IDF.
The IDF are terrorists. And always have been.
Israel was founded by expansionist-right-wing extremist terrorists.
proxy5000
TheFunionKnight
You just proved their point
ThingsThatDontJustifyGenocide
That it's a long history? That people are reductionist about it?
No, I just talked about the history of the Irgun.
The IDF have ALWAYS been terrorists. The ideology of methodology of the IDF remains the same.
TheFunionKnight
You state it's not that long of a conflict and that it began in 1940, the seeds of the conflict began much before them with groups on both sides.
Maraxus
Well, yeah. That got obvious like 12 hours into their invasion of Gaza. Collateral damage is not just tolerated but seems to be encouraged. Medics and reporters are specifically targeted.
TheSilverSeraph
"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" implies proportionate retaliation. Israel currently has a policy of "A war crime for an eye and a genocide for a tooth"
TigerThong
well if your duty as a leader is to secure your populace. You get mass attacked from gaza. You're going to invade gaza that's the only answer otherwise its just going to repeat
Alvatore
Absolutely wrong, and I wouldn't be surprised if you've only ever heard Israel's side of things. Israel started this, Israel continues this, Israel is responsible for this. The conditions inside Gaza were already deplorable even before Israel reduced it to a parking lot.
FermentTheRich3000
That's the exact thing that was being spoken against in that quote.
Alvatore
"Currently" meaning the entire time of Israel's existence. There has never been a time of history where Israel has had measured and proportionate responses to anything.
TheSilverSeraph
Agreed… and they become even more disproportionate over time
proxy5000
Fyreworx
They never had the moral high ground. They just used the attack as an excuse. They've been pushing people tighter and tighter, taking their options away until joining hamas seemed like the only one they had left. Now all they've done is shown the world exactly who they are and started a massive recruitment drive for hamas.
Cloudypoona
69..nice
meauho
Exactly.
My great-grandmother, an Ashkenazi Jew who immigrated from Germany at the beginning of "the troubles" (her phrasing) and who lost all of her family that stayed, stopped supporting Israel in the 1990s because it reminded her too much of Germany when she was growing up.
That was before Israel decided to use a definition of anti-Semitic that includes a requirement to support the Israeli government no matter what they do
Dolenmorgul
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they knew about the attack because come on, Mossad, but just let it happen so they could clear some real estate also known as the Gaza strip.
NonstopRampage
The fucked up part is, it might be evil vs evil, but they gave their victims no other way to defend themselves BUT to rely on terrorists to fight for them. They always wanted this, and they were always bastards. We just let sensitive politics blind us to that.
TigerThong
used the attack as an excuse? what is the appropriate response to an attack like that? do nothing?
We and pretty much anyother country would do similar. That said bibi is a fascist cunt but I dont see many faults with their gaza war. Even by hamas's counts its 4:1 civilians to militants death toll which isn't crazy
diezl97
Shocking how many kids in my country are pro-Hamas because of Tiktok. No conception of all the carnage Hamas has perpetrated long before O7: the kidnappings, bombings, shootings... not to mention the stuff they did to the Israelis. Hamas is a cancer that needs to be excised: I just wish Israel was a better surgeon so they could spare more Palestinian civilians in the process. Meanwhile nobody is paying attention to Israel's REAL crimes in the West Bank.
delecti
The goal of attacks like 10/7 is to provoke an overreaction. Israel has spent the last 6 months doing the most effective recruitment drive that Hamas could have ever imagined, the same mistake the US made after 9/11. Israel is also manufacturing a famine starving of hundreds of thousands of people, and it's ghoulish to argue that could be justified no matter what the incited it.
Shoutrr
and the fact that they ignored all warning of an incoming attack from different countries. Because they knew, they wanted it to happen so they could have an excuse to do what they are doing now. And the hostage killing they already did, + blind bombardments tells that they don't care about hostages at all.
SeeShark
This wasn't true on 9/11 and it isn't true now.
Tyrann01
It is true. Egypt's government have stated (early on) that they warned the Israeli government about the attack.
Not to mention that the IDF have spies deep in Hamas. The idea that this caught them off guard is extremely difficult to swallow.
gft8gd5khn101
I can't imagine malice by their government or ours (like for 911) when sheer incompetence will suffice to explain. They had a major lapse in security sure.
Shoutrr
it's factually true. they were warned. they did nothing to act on these warnings. they killed hostages. There's even large manifestations against the government mostly led by the hostage families because they figured out the government don't give a fuck about those.
pdxenburg
The flaw in this argument is they've been squeezing the West Bank over the years - but Hamas the the terrorists are in Gaza. Israel hasn't been taking their land. They definitely had the moral high ground after Oct 7th - there's no justification for shooting thousands of rockets into Israel cities indiscriminately.
drakesyn
Fun Fact! Every inch of soil Israel occupies is Palestinian land, stolen by colonial powers after world war two to "solve the jewish Problem". So, you're inherently wrong for the same reason people who use Oct 7th as a justification for a genocide are. History goes back further than those dates. The grudges Hamas has (while executed violently and irrationally) have existed *as long as* Israel as a state has.
fishbicyclerepairman
Like most absolutes, this is an inaccurate depiction of reality.
drakesyn
I should be clear, because this is the internet. the quoted "solve the Jewish Problem" is the words of the western colonial powers of the time, not myself.
CrisprCAS
You mean the army that was okay with 20 dead civilians per 'possibly a Hamas member but who knows the computer tagged 'em so let's get 'em', preferably by dumb bomb dropped on their house at night, doesn't have the moral high ground?
donorkort
If we use Hamas' official numbers, the ratio at the start of March was more like 4 civilians per Hamas combatant, where the total death toll hit 30k and Hamas said they had lost 6k fighters.
CrisprCAS
I didn't say 'the army that killed' I said 'the army that was okay with killing', 4 civilians for every foot soldier is still awful, and Hamas has directly denied the 6k figure.
donorkort
4 civilians per combatant in one of the densest populated urban zones in the world is nothing short of a miracle. UN has the average civilian:combatant ratio for all wars - not just dense urban like this one - at 9:1. For reference, a 4:1 ratio is about equal with that of the UN bombing of Yugoslavia in '99. https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm
CrisprCAS
Yeah, that's horseshit. NATO in Yugoslavia was ~1:1. Coalition in Afghanistan and Iraq were 1:4 and 1:2. Even WW2 and Vietnam were 2:1, in an era of strategic bombing of population centers. That's what you get from armies minimizing civilian deaths. When you average in conflicts with terrorism-as-policy actors like Russia, Syria, and now Israel, the number goes up a lot.
donorkort
I think you're right about the NATO (which I also mistakenly called UN) ratio. I was too hasty on the source for the claim, which ironically was the Israeli ambassador in the US trying to make Gaza/Hamas deaths more digestable by claiming the NATO ratio was the above mentioned. In that context, I agree with you that this is most likely bullshit. That being said - 4:1 in such a densely populated urban area is still incredible, and this is all assuming Hamas aren't downplaying their losses.
TigerThong
if you were a live during 9/11 you could see how emotional people got about fucking up "the others" Every one responds this way when initially attacked even you would be quite angry and struggle to sympathize if civilians that support the terror group that killed your loved ones were killed.
CrisprCAS
And yet the US military in Afghanistan had a civilian casualty ratio of 1:4, not 4:1.
mrthewhitee
You mean the army that claimed Hamas used human shields then programmed their targeting algorithm to wait until the target was among the highest number of civilians before approving a strike?
MrFancyPanzer
They lost their moral high ground a long time ago, in 1948 they forced half the palestinian population out of their homes.
Alvatore
This "war" did not start on October 7th 2023; it started in 1948. The process of displacing Palestinians itself, however, started in the 1880s.
pdxenburg
UK controlled the region and tried to negotiate the Israeli settlement with the Palestinians - but they chose war and lost. That was 3 generations ago and their ongoing resistance hasn't served them at all.
AlexSomething
Biological warfare says what?
AlexSomething
To the downvoter(s): https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2022-10-14/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/documents-confirm-israelis-poisoned-arab-wells-in-1948/00000183-d2b2-d8cc-afc7-fefed64d0000
ThingsThatDontJustifyGenocide
They didn't even have the moral high ground before that, given all the terrorism the zionists were doing.
pdxenburg
Palestinians haven't been responsible for any terrorism that derailed two state solutions in the past?
MaximusUltima
The “2 State Solution” you mean “Palestinian surrender of their homes to foreigner colonial settlers?”
Accusing Palestinians of thwarting early efforts at a “2 State Solution” is like blaming Native Americans for fighting back against European imperial conquest and expansionism.
pdxenburg
And they lost. It's unrealistic to think Israel built one of the most prosperous societies and are going to hand it back over after generations living there. At some point Palestinians have to think of moving on because continuing to suffer by fighting isn't working out very well
livingonagiantfireball
Israel is the equivalent of how russia behave.
ThingsThatDontJustifyGenocide
My brother in Abraham, the zionists started the terrorism in the 1940s before there was even an Israel, and they never stopped.
pdxenburg
Who told you that?
ThingsThatDontJustifyGenocide
The zionists did.
MeowMachine12
Facts. You're entirely transparent and profoundly embarrassing.
donorkort
In 1948 the Arab league declared war on Israel instead of accepting UN Resolution 181, which would have created a two-state solution. The Arab league then lost that war, and with it, a massive amount of land. Israel has done - and are doing - a *ton* of shady and immoral things, that - atrocities in Gaza aside - include the continuing settlements on the land of Palestinians, but the 1948 war is a poor example when there's so much to choose from.
enotrevo
First the zionists committed this massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre then they declared their independence and THEN the Arab League stepped in.
donorkort
The Zionists didn't "declare independence", the United Nation's General Assembly declared the creation of the two states of Israel and Palestine, with Jerusalem being supervised by an international peacekeeping force. The Arab League decided not to recognize this resolution and formation of Palestine, and instead declared war.
enotrevo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence "The Israeli Declaration of Independence, formally the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel), was proclaimed on 14 May 1948 (5 Iyar 5708) by David Ben-Gurion" who btw covered up a massacre and hated Arabs.
Leithoa
If a bunch of foreign powers cut up your country would you just accept it? Also, that original map isn't what exists today. http://passia.org/media/filer_public/17/35/1735106c-e496-45d1-9066-a573f98a02d5/pdfresizercom-pdf-crop_12-page-001.jpg
donorkort
I know the map isn't what was proposed, because like I said, the Arab League declined it and instead declared a war, and when they lost that war, they lost a bunch of land with it.
Leithoa
"Declined [the proposed map]" You make it sound like a calm offer between two willing participants rather than the imposition of imperial powers. If Some foreign power came in and cut your country in half how would you react?
donorkort
Cut whose country in half, exactly? There hadn't been an Israel for almost 2000 years, and there had never been a Palestinian country at all. You make it sound like the resolution was passed by some evil Westerners, but in reality it was passed by 56 voting countries. Even Mahmoud Abbas, the current Palestinian president, has said that the Arab League declining the UN resolution was a mistake: https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE79R644/
TigerThong
that's rewriting history a bit. They got attacked after a UN resolution said they could live there. so you know, in war, when ya lose. ya dont keep the land typically
Leithoa
http://passia.org/media/filer_public/17/35/1735106c-e496-45d1-9066-a573f98a02d5/pdfresizercom-pdf-crop_12-page-001.jpg a bunch of westerners dividing up your country in an act of imperialism doesn't make it better
TigerThong
its still lying about what happened. the premise is completely different than stated. its not like Israel was alone in setteling there. its not like they just randomly started fucking with pally's as the original comment insinuates. this is propaganda/disinformation
Leithoa
Oh.... Your just racist. K.
MrFancyPanzer
What did I lie about? This happened https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight?wprov=sfla1
miloshdaddy
Unpopular opinion:
The "somewhat official" / "somewhat democratically elected" government of Gaza (Hamas) essentially believes that Israel should not have the right to exist.
The "somewhat official" / "somewhat democratically elected" government of Israel (Netanyahu) essentially believes that the Palestinian state should not have the right to exist.
Neither side deserves anyone's support. Both sides should be pressured to treat the other side better.
donorkort
It is pretty wild that this is an unpopular opinion. A long lasting, peaceful two-state solution is a fever dream as long as either of the two - and their like-minded associates - have any influence.
bobimg
A power imbalance like comparing a kid to a champion boxer. The fact prior to Israel bolstering Hamas they werent popular, as opposed to the huge support Israeli policy has. The ethnic cleansing of the West Bank where Hamas dont have much presence at all
and now, 10s of thousands innocent Palestinians, a huge portion children, lie dead. 70% of everything damaged or destroyed. Press and aid staff murdered in unprecedented numbers
Both sidesing is depressingly not 'unpopular', just monstrous.
turkeydonkey
It's definitely a case of the UN needs to come in and shut everyone down, because both sides are quite willing to genocide the other.
NickRivieraMD
I think the key thing you're missing here is the action and power imbalance part of it. I wanted to kick my dad's ass when I was a kid. He wanted to kick mine too. One of us was more wrong.
tintoverde
Well the part ‘ we are the rightful owner of the land , because the Bible says we lived here , so get of my land ‘ bother me to so much
donorkort
That's the line both of them use, though. Hamas has a similar argument in their official charter: that Palestine (the territory/region) is Muslim, Arab land, and that the existence of Israel is "bâtil", which means false or invalid in sharia law.
Jgold101
I will also say the jews living in Israel in the past is not a bible thing it's a history thing. The Romans kept very good records about who and how they tried to get rid of.
Alvatore
I'm reasonably - not completely, but reasonably - sure the Torah includes the part where God destroys the Kingdom of Israel and scatters its people to the corners of the earth as punishment for turning away from the laws He set out for them, so... they're gonna need to try something else.
neithermenoryou
Israel was founded on genocide, as the british helped slaughter and displace a couple million palestinians to make way for european zionists to settle the area. So, naturally palestinians are pretty upset with Israel existing. And the rest of the arab world in that area has similar issues as the british basically just redrew the map to their pleasing completely ignoring local customs or existing ethnic lines. And somehow we're supposed to wonder why none of the surrounding countries like Israel.
donorkort
Israel was founded on genocide? I haven't heard that before - can you elaborate?
proxy5000
thats some quite precise summary. Looked up what nakba means - ethnic cleansing, historical at it.
INeverWaitForIt
The drawing of the national borders of middle eastern country was very much designed to keep the region destabilized.
TheFunionKnight
Tell me you've never read a history book without saying I've never read a history book
neithermenoryou
This might surprise you but it is in fact part of the history books that most of the tensions from about 1920 onwards was from British fuckery in the area, including recently immigrated nationalist Zionists. https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/jps.">ii.1.6">https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1525/jps.2012.xlii.1.6 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration. Almost none of the local Jewish people (the descendants of the Sephardic Jews) wanted Israel to happen by killing Palestinians, and they suffered a lot from the Zionist's fuckery.
INeverWaitForIt
Unfortunately, only one side has the ability to completely annihilate each other. And Israel supported Hamas at one point because they thought the secular alternative would've drawn more international support.
TigerThong
and yet palistinans still support hamas. The reality is they'll hate eachother as long as they exist.
INeverWaitForIt
I imagine most Palestinians (and Israelis) just want to live in peace and be left alone. Unfortunately, the Israeli government has had other ideas and has been murdering hundreds of Palestinians a year for decades (while the reverse is dozens). Of course this is going to radicalize people, who just want the wanton murder and theft to stop. And the power dynamic is so skewed that Israel could stop. They've just chosen not to, and are using the most recent heinous actions by Hamas as an excuse.
SomeDetroitGuy
Hamas committed a horrific, inexcusable war crime. Israel's response was even worse.
Alvatore
Hamas wouldn't have done what it did - Hamas wouldn't even have come to power in the first place - if Israel wasn't treating the Palestinians with such barbarism and malice. Oct 7th wasn't the start of anything; it was a continuation of events started by Israel in 1948.
TigerThong
I think we have the luxury of not seeing our families killed and neighbors attacked. Pretending you'd be level headed after your long time adversary kills 1000 of your people is lying to yourself. Any country would have responded with an invasion of gaza.
purpledd
That's fair - but by that same token, pretending Hamas would be level headed after decades of asymmetric violence with hundreds killed annually (including during "ceasefires" and an entire year of violence against unarmed protestors) by Israel is also lying to ourselves.
pdxenburg
Which Hamas anticipated, and was probably their motivation. Playing the victim card to the international community is their meal ticket
rimoeng
That abused woman shouldn’t have hit her husband. She knew he was going to go ballistic on her. Just playing the victim card…
pdxenburg
If she hit him first because she's running a scam on the women's shelter for free housing - doesn't she bear responsibility?
TheFunionKnight
Equating Hamas to abused women is an insult to women
TigerThong
Trying to put 1000 years of religious wars into a domestic abuse analogy. we are a doomed species.
rimoeng
If you think this is primarily about religion you haven’t been paying attention.
QuintinParry
We understand that the Palestinian people and Hamas are not the same thing correct? It's important to me that you understand that. We could throw all of Hamas and the Israeli Defense Force and government into a pit where they couldn't hurt anyone else I wouldn't give a rat's ass about what they did to each other in there. It's the people who have no choice, who want no part of Hamas, the children who are starving, the literal victims that the International Community is trying to help.
pdxenburg
Does Gaza not support, endorse, and make up Hamas? I do differentiate between West Bank and Hamas. Gaza is arguably interchangeable. What is Gaza doing to help Israel get rid of Hamas if they don't want them there?
TigerThong
The palestinian people overwhelmingly support hamas. Look it up
pdxenburg
In Gaza*
QuintinParry
Based on what? Last the last election in Gaza was in 2006. The average age in Gaza is 18. If you do the math well over half the population in Gaza never voted for Hamas. Support for Hamas was it 12% before the atrocities and war crimes Israel committed. That's according to reporting by the Associated Press. Even after the war crimes being committed by Israel support for Hamas is only 42%. Which by my math is less than half and doesn't meet overwhelmingly.
QuintinParry
Furthermore if I had to choose between to genocide alarms I'd pick the one that wasn't trying to kill me too. The actions that Israel is taking is strengthening the support for Hamas in Gaza. The Israeli government knows this will be the case. They want this to happen as they view Hamas as a useful tool. This is not speculation Netanyahu has said it in an interview in 2012.
SavageDrums
Also, what Israel was doing to Palestine before Hamas' horrific, inexcusable war crime was also pretty horrific, and probably a war crime...
L4dead2
I had a buddy who was from Palestine always telling me how Israel treated his people. Then this attack happened and he was not surprised one bit
TigerThong
neither side is great but Israel at least shows some restraint. in role reversal hamas would gladly genocide israel.
HAPPYCATDOG
Unlike the genocide Israel is currently doing? Glad they are showing restraint though :)
demosteness
They’re killing thousands of kids but ok
donorkort
Hamas has been firing thousands of rockets into Israel every yeah, also before the war started, and Israel would always respond similarly. This war is nothing but an escalation of an already existing conflict - the war crimes were always there for both of them.
Slayage
Ah yes the classic "both sides" story to make Israël look good.
donorkort
Ah yes, the classic "both sides are committing war crimes but war crimes only matter when I don't like the ones doing them" story.
Slayage
There is no both sides story when we are talking about an occupation of almost 80 years that is backed by the global super power and pretty much the entire west vs a group of people with AK47s on flip flops. War crimes are being committed sporadically by Palestians and structurally day in and day out. But I understand you'd like to make Israël look not so bad because "there are bad people on both sides". Classic Zionist argumentation to keep the occupation going and the annexations expanding.