DoggyWanKenobi
230589
6071
114
Nov 16, 2017 3:22 PM
DoggyWanKenobi
230589
6071
114
HighFunctioningAlcoholic
We've clearly solved all the important issues in society.
Guiltytree
As a game designer who shipped out a fucktone of lootboxes, I can confirm that this shit is considered gambling and is illegal in Japan
frostman233
Can they solve anything?
Miridarna
The difference between cosmetic only boxes and game changer boxes is astounding
kwickster85
This is a consumer protection issue
Ryanator50
you're supposed to call your congressmen about Net Neutrality. EA's shitstorm can wait a few days.
DarPhyve
Sweet, now start working on net neutrality so the entire internet doesn't turn into an EA pay to play game.
davidcnelson
honestly really in general the more you research something the more sense it makes actually and um lol
PapaTimDankopus
well, to be fair @OP Technically this falls under encouraging minors to gamble, on top of tax evasion and fraud.
freakybender
I know this is way down in the comments by now and people may have already talked about it but listen to Robot Congress. 1/?
freakybender
It's headed by Ryan Morrison, a legit attorney and an actual "gamer". He speaks at length about the subject and it is fascinating. 2/2
Commentsleroyjenkinsoneverything
leeeeeeeeroy jenkins!
AwkwardKeming
If buying a loot box is gambling, what about CCGs?
BazookaJoe27
Collectable cards in general. Like what about packs of baseball cards? Declaring loot boxes gambling would have far-reaching implications.
SterlingDangerZoneArcher
I mean technically it is interstate commerce so it would be federal jurisdiction....
Sierra11755
Out of curiosity, if micro transactions like the ones in Battlefront became illegal would the microtransactions in games like 1/2
Sierra11755
Warframe and Planetside 2 also become illegal?
TheGreyKnightsBANNED
So it's considered gambling? If that's the case then I have a feeling that battlefront is gonna get a ban hammer.
RGBCAMERA
i heard the Belgium gambling commission was looking into it also
CadaverBredstic
Oh this is nothing. As a congressional intern I fielded complaints solid white lines and excessive sugar content in market basket's pies
BojanglesTheFlyingCar
I actually want a lawyer in gaming law to check the Eula for this game
AllTheGoodOnesWereGone
Even the people who spend $1,000s in phone apps have stayed under the radar mostly so far, but this EA thing is going to hit the industry...
AllTheGoodOnesWereGone
If states are motivated to interpret and enforce their gambling / gambling device laws.
Proflakes
China forced Valve to publicize the percentage chance of getting each item in paid "treasures" for Dota 2, which sounds good to me.
LeeroyTheBird
Is there a source? I'm sure the percentage chance is same in the US.
WizardofAnus
It could be, or could not be. It's not unheard of for a company to make known values more impressive than the unknowns are.
Proflakes
Just a quick source, lots out there: https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/2/15517962/china-new-law-dota-league-of-legends-odds-loot-box-random
BlackPengu
Would this impact PUBG, Counterstrike, Destiny and all the other games that make money with random items and cosmetics?
Grillparzer
The defense argument: it's a game of skill rather than luck and therefore not gambling.
spattr
Congress is the law. They can fix anything. They just choose not to.
HauldrenCollider
um sir i would like to direct you to a little document I call "the constitution"
pgdave
They can fix anything that the law can fix - the law isn't all powerful.
Goldcart
What if we made a law saying it is?
ozjuggler
Yes legislate the truth! And hold a Hate Hour regularly too!
thdudedude
I feel like all the people bitching about these loot boxes being gambling, dont know about the history of loot boxes in games that are
thdudedude
actually run by gambling websites.
thdudedude
http://www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/17078888/valve-realign-ecosystem-esports-gambling
Tigirus
This actually happened in Japan over a buch of gacha games and they had to overhaul how micro-transactions for loot boxes work.
Phlons
EU law changes also caused the slot machine side game in Pokemon to be removed, so it has legal backing.
SightlierGravy
In China loot boxes are considered gambling. So they made it that you're buying some digital currency for the game and get boxes for free.
SightlierGravy
Also, every company must release the drop rate for their boxes.
Shouneko
That would be a nice mandate for US games.
Arceus
But the release is diff from other countries. More favorable drops for them, less for us since it is unknown for us.
SightlierGravy
Depends on the company. You can figure out the drop rates with enough loot boxes and for HS and Gwent it seems to be the same rate worldwide
2000CalToblerone
This is good stuff
LurkMasterP
Please stop flooding Congress with petty bullshit. We need to keep them free to investigate pro sports issues.
KonaDarbles
scatter
I don't think people understood that this was sarcasm. ... This is sarcasm, right?
LurkMasterP
Man, i don't even know anymore.
wyatt8740
was it sarcasm AT THE TIME, then???
scatter
That's fair.
hajimedj
It's technically gambling but thanks to loopholes it's not really gambling, because you don't earn money and you don't spend actual money
Johnny2085
Time is money. Because time is money, anything that helps you reach more of the games overall content in less time is money.
TheRockDude
Tell that to Pokemon
TheRockDude
Specifically, tell that to the guys who made the NA localization take out the slot machines
hajimedj
on the thing you gamble on, but instead spend credits.
reclusivepope4
It varies by game if the money is directed to an in-game currency or straight to box.
itsfabulous
People do spend actual money tho
idontenglishsorry
Not directly tho
Irishda
But they don't lose it. There's no risk because you always receive something
GadenKerensky
The psychology is very much similar, and worse, in this game it can give people a very early advantage.
Irishda
Probably a reason gambling is also called "gaming"
jayar1st
Accurate
kiddub
I don't see how this is any different than trading cards. As long as the odds are posted, what are we talking about?
boxvader
Jim sterling does an excellent job of explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLDid1UNyg8&t=11s
AshenRider
Thank God
dingleberriesm8
I don't see how trading cards aren't gambling.
Itshardtofindauniqueusername
It certainly seems to trigger similar responses. Don't know about the legal definition though.
Xplode441
You own trading cards when you buy them, good or bad. You don't actually own anything you get from lootboxes, you're paying to gamble on
Xplode441
getting something good, but you're just licensing out everything on your account in game, the devs can take it away for any reason.
GadenKerensky
As someone pointed out, the trading cards ARE the game. Not an addition to it, they ARE the game. And, they have a physical value.
kiddub
They are an addition. If you want to play certain styles, you will not be able to without buying more packs/buying individual cards on eBay.
kiddub
Try to complete an upper deck set buying packs, or autographs, etc
AuricThunder
Whether it's gambling or not, it's still an anti-consumer practice to get you to buy more than you actually want by including unwanted items
kiddub
That's is not the point being made here.
AlwaysandEventuallyHannah
Tarmack did a video specifically on this analogy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdB_ooSljJc The upshot is that arguably yes, trading (1)
AlwaysandEventuallyHannah
cards should be considered gambling. Loot boxes are worse in a lot of ways though, because like slot machines the odds of winning in a (2)
AlwaysandEventuallyHannah
loot box can be altered second-by-second to not only take the fullest advantage of people who already have a gambling addiction, but (3)
AlwaysandEventuallyHannah
also to feel out people who are teetering on the edge of one and drag them over it. It's not just that odds aren't posted, it's that (4)
AlwaysandEventuallyHannah
the controller of the virtual marketplace can literally change the odds on the fly in order to exploit people better. (5/5)
Barrum
Odds being posted aren't the issue, if it falls under gambling then generally you must have a license to conduct them and minors can't play
Irishda
Because you're paying money for game content. You receive something for your payment. You never lose. Thus there's no gamble involved
jayar1st
You are correct.
Maeguard
lol what? That's like saying "You pay a slot machine for a few seconds of fun, therefor it's not gambling.".
KaneVel
My roulette table will give out at least 0.01€ with every spin, it's totally not gambling!
Irishda
There's an economically comparative angle to it. You've agreed to hand over 2 bucks or however for random in game items/currency
Irishda
You are not guaranteed what those items are. You have STILL received items for your currency. Its not gambling
Luther848
That's only true for the first lootbox. Each successive lootbox reduces the value of every lootbox you open after it.
Barrum
That's not how legal definitions work. It doesn't matter whether it falls under your personal definition of gambling, the law matters
Camelspotting
That's the legal definition. What more are you looking for?
Barrum
That's not the legal definition. You know that's all defined by statute, which varies from state to state, country to country, right?
nickwinters
So what is the legal definition?
Barrum
Defined by statute, so it depends on the state/country. You'd have to look it up.
Gamebuster19901
Well in S.C. Whoever shall publicly or privately erect, set up, or expose to be played [...] any lottery under the denomination of
Gamebuster19901
[any] things whatsoever or for money or by any undertaking whatsoever , in the nature of a lottery, by way of chances [...] is guilty
Irishda
It's not the nature of lottery because you always win. You always receive something for the money
Gamebuster19901
of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined one thousand dollars and imprisoned for one year.
rizenfell
Trading cards have real physical value.
GiantRobotsRule
What's the difference bw colorful cardboard and colorful pixels? Don't both have whatever market value is given them by collectors/players?
xrufus7x
A lot of time it comes down to ownership. You don't own an online game. You are paying to access it and that can be revoked.
Expiredjelly
Many virtual items are unavailable to trade, gift, or send to other people. Especially these "unlockables."
reclusivepope4
Except even they are starting to go digital. See MTGO, and Topps. The dumbest though: Funko Pop digital.
UncleCeiling
Kinda like those digital stickers for your messenger.
novusprime
i dont want to believe digital funko pops are real and im too afraid to look it up
MichaelDello
What about hearthstone?
kiddub
It's just a different medium, and the value is dictated by whether you will pay it or not. Nothing more.
kayakninjas
Very little practical value between a card and a virtual unlock. Both of them are worthless outside the context of the game.
z0de
Nah
Slash0mega
trading card servers can't go down, and its there is no tos that says you cant resell traiding cards.
surprisemotherfuckers
i can resell a trade card though, not a virtual unlock
wilkins1952
Yup and have artistic and cultural value as well
rhubarbarian
My complete collection of Marvel Series 3 trading cards from 1992 would beg to differ.
laton
*cough*HearthStone
surprisemotherfuckers
I can resell trading cards too
SomeWhiteKid
False equivalency. In Valve games with a similar system, you can sell items after it is dropped to you or you can buy the items from players
surprisemotherfuckers
not a false equivalency when its only valve games, I can't resell star cards
mikekearn
That's definitely not universal to all digital games. All physical TCGs, by virtue of being actual cards, are resaleable.
Lulabel73
I get the feeling it’s because you’ve already paid for the game. It would be like buying 10pkts of cards and then having to pay to open em.
kiddub
You buy 10 pets of cards and even a booster knowing you won't get all the cards you want.
PudgyPinkiePie
Yiu probably bought a booster box / starter box when you first started. That would be the "base game".
ChangingMyNameToHideFromStalker
Good analogy
Lulabel73
Thanks.
Tywinning
That's my problem with it, its an F2P monetisation model forced into a full price game that restricts access to existing game content 1/2
kiddub
It's not existing game content, and they aren't telling anyone it is. They've put up a pay wall. Pay or dont
Tywinning
It's content that was created before launch, available for use during the beta with less effort required to get it, that forms an 1/
Tywinning
Integral part of the game, that being the heroes and star cards, the latter of which gives direct gameplay benefits and the former gives 2/
Tywinning
That gives you a leg up, even if it's technically available for free. I don't mind cosmetic only loot boxes at all, though I do prefer 2/?
Tywinning
Being able to buy what I want up front. But taking stuff that's an extant and integral part of the game on launch and sticking that in 3/4
Tywinning
Just tells me EA has no idea what made loot crates generally acceptable and successful in the first place. They just saw easy £$€¥ 4/4
gerardMajax
if that was considered gambling, it would have a Huge impact on all the latest EA games, hit them hard
Elroydb
Along with basically every game that has a free to play with premium options model
bobziIIa
Wouldn't this ruin any collectable card game? Like mtg. Really any randomized collectables, baseball cards are gambling.
MyUsernameOnImgur
...Or any of the other 1000 games out there that use Micro Transactions as well. This is nothing new nor special.
UsernameTheMusical
Honest question: If loot-boxes is gambling, wouldn't those toy capsule vending machines be gambling? Especially when there are rare prizes?
IllCaesar
Gacha games are considered gambling in many foreign countries. They have to be somewhat generous or they risk getting shut down.
patrickcoyneud
Not just EA but many small shops that give freemium games
ArdentSlacker
GOOD.
losboccacc
you'd just get micro-transaction for in game items without the randomized loot
Mayokopp
*on the whole fucking industry. It would be great if ALL the lootboxes come to an end
Elroydb
Then games would move to subscription without the income to continue support. Look at Overwatch vs D3
Grimm7766
Huh? Neither game requires a subscription.
Elroydb
One has a continuous source of revenue and the other does not. Which receives the most developer support?
bagaault
Back in my day you made a game and people could play it without internet and constant "support" with more downloads.
usersubbordercontrol
Pokemon had to change a ton, because it had slots in it, and had to remove it. How is it not a gamble to get random boxes worth different $?
Unagi604
It's not worth money. Ex. You pay Steam $100. Steam adds 100 to your balance. You buy a CS-GO skin. Who has the $100? You, seller, or Steam?
Unagi604
Like with the CSGO gambling site. They bridged the gap from item to cash, which is why the owners were the ones charged for it, not Steam.
usersubbordercontrol
Yeah, but you can transfer that steam money into money in other games
Unagi604
Yes that's true, but at no point could you get your steam balance back into cash. At that point, the balance is essentially steam credits.
kekkres
pokemon was for depicting casinos in a kids game rather than "having gambling mechanics"
jetflight
It also declares open season on games and gaming on a legal level, as well, thus leading to mass censoring of gaming for inane reasons.
Smurpo
It's not censorship, it's protecting consumers from predatory business practices. If only there were a Bureau to make businesses act better.
jetflight
Yes, in THIS particular case. Never expect it to stay that way once control-freaks have an excuse.
PerhapsAnotherPerspective
It's a bit ironic, then, that the BBB has been criticized for giving out good ratings in exchange for paying additional fees
Smurpo
God damnit, now we need a Bureau for the Bureaus
PerhapsAnotherPerspective
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Business_Bureau#Criticism
Roqinn
The ESRB has declared that loot boxes are not gambling. https://kotaku.com/esrb-says-it-doesnt-see-loot-boxes-as-gambling-1819363091
Tsumino79
it should be noted that EA activision etc RUN the ESRB
Roqinn
I think they are though. You pay money to open something to get a surprise. How is that different than slot machines?
kekkres
the thing is you always get exactly what you paid for which is a random common drop that has a chance to be a higher rarity
pgdave
The biggest difference is likely that the result you get in a game isn't cash.
Meeces
Killing many games in the process.
TotallyNotAMurderer
It could fix all the hacking in pubg without the incentive
Tywinning
Many good games use cosmetic loot crates as part of an F2P model. EA would survive regardless. EAs specific impl is more the problem
Meeces
Personally, I am a fan of cosmetic loot crates, but the comment I was referring to says that all loot boxes are gambling. (1/2)
Meeces
Loot boxes are providing publishers (and developers) with profit that allows them to make more games (and take more risk!). (2/X)
Meeces
If people want loot boxes gone (which is a fine opinion to have), they have to realize that publishers will find a different way to (3/x)
NextineX
If this is considered gambling then it will impact Valve a FUCKTON more. It wpuld hit thousands of games, both indie and AAA.
Camelspotting
And shut down all trading card games.
ArdentSlacker
GOOD.
SuperRockinMrMagic
You could apply precident starting now and existing games are grandfathered in
DoublevBomb
Particularly since they're the ones that mostly started it all. That said, it was Overwatch that reinforced the idea that it was TOTES OKAY.
InfiniteSynapse
Truth be told, in Warframe people would rather buy a chance at a good Riven mod than an already open one.
InfiniteSynapse
Also in Ragnarok online people hoarded purple gift boxes and opened them in droves. People are addicted to chances.
Koravel34
Difference was always that it was considered fine as long as it was cosmetic only. Anyone who thought they wouldnt do this was naive, though
Tywinning
That's my stance, instead EA decided to partition stuff that affects gameplay and was already in the game and hide it behind an RNG paywall
TehMightyEngineer
Yeah, I was 100% fine with it as cosmetic only items. Then it was fun when you got a good box but not the end of the world.
ToyotaCelica
Cosmetic items that cannot be sold, otherwise items become digital tokens/fiches
DoublevBomb
If cosmetics were not important to people, these systems wouldn't make any money. Consumer defense of the system is part of the idea.
the1omnipotent
Didn't TF2 have a similar system?
FreakinSatan
I think it originally was just drops and they added crates later, but that was like 10 years ago so I don't fully remember.
FreakinSatan
That being said you can buy and sell crates for real money(usually cents but still) so it might fit the gambling thing better.
DoublevBomb
Yes, but 7 years prior. People didn't worship it the same way, so it didn't really catch on the same way.
ASolitudeGuard
Every time someone says "TF2" I think they mean titanfall 2...
MyPseudoIsAlduinSkyrimStoleItFromMe
Impact in a good way I hope!
patrickcoyneud
It would put many indie shops out of business
NextineX
For valve? I don't know how losing the revenue stream you've built every single game release on would somehow be good.
MyPseudoIsAlduinSkyrimStoleItFromMe
Good for customer
SomeWhiteKid
Not even, CSGO is alive because of skins and it is completely optional. I have 1k hours and I have not spent a dime on skins.
graou13
Maybe that would push them to going back to making awesome single player games like half-life or portal
Camelspotting
Good one.
captstiches21
The main distinction of loot boxes from gambling is that you always win something, even if it is effectively worthless. Everything else 1/2
flarflarf
everything you get from an EA loot box is effectively worthless
TheMemeForge
But by that logic, a $20 scratch ticket that has a 100% win chance, but the lowest prize is $1 wouldn't be gambling?
joemoedee
It would because you’re getting money back. Tis why a “free ticket” can be the value of the ticket you purchased in cash.
TheMemeForge
If that were tru e lotto companies would all do that and dodge tax and regulations
ColoneISanders
I don't know, if I buy a lottery ticket, I'm essentially exchanging money for a piece of paper that may or may not be worth something.
HighFunctioningAlcoholic
You could say the same about food. What if it's spoiled?
joemoedee
And lotto is heavily regulated. This is more like buying a pack of baseball cards. You may get great ones, you may not. But you get cards.
laxstateofmind
When there's any skill involved it usually takes it out of the realm of illegal gambling. So time invested and winning games etc...
captstiches21
Prizes are entirely randomized. Skill only relates to how fast you acquire them, which EA has also put restrictions on (think Candy Crush)
flarflarf
poker is still gambling.
andergriff
could I open a casino for minors with all the normal things you find at a casino, but everything pays out at least one cent?
kekkres
the problem is money has a value, one cent is worth less than you payed, while in lootboxes the data is "worth" the same in all outcomes; 0$
amyhadalittlepond
Here in the UK we have casinos for minors anyway. Usually "2p machines" (coin slots and sliding shelf)
ImgurCouncilOfLlamas
50% chance of a hundred dollars. 50% chance of a Mardi Gras dabloon.
HarkADragon
No. As someone who has worked in the gambling industry there is a differing idea about buying a random object and winning a random prize. 1/
HarkADragon
One is implying you are just buying an object you may or may not want but theoretically are of equal value. The other you won a random 2/
HarkADragon
prize that was possibly less than what you put in. Its why in US law you see those random prize giveaways say No purchase necessary. No 3/
rayhatesu
Yeah, it's called opening a Chuck-E-Cheese location.
andergriff
never thought about that.
whatsisname
looks up games of skill vs games of chance. CEC games are all 'skill' and there is a different in legal ramifications.
Unagi604
Not unless the only thing you can win is not money. One major distinction is a no cash return.
HarkADragon
This is not true. However in order for it to be seen as not gambling all outcomes must be equal to or grater than your input money.
Unagi604
That's one I've not heard of before. What region makes that distinction? Have a source I can read up on?
captstiches21
Idk. Chuck E Cheese is legal. Is it ethical to take advantage of addictive personalities/poor judgement? And everyone does win something...
DynamicWeight
Yes, it is unethical to take advantage of people in that way.
captstiches21
I think I'd agree. I loved those arcades as a kid. Deep down I knew there was a sinister aspect to it, but I kept playing anyway.
Odentay
Sadly unethical does not mean illegal
captstiches21
2/2 about them is predatory and serves the sole purpose to reinforce the cycle of buying more loot boxes. The two are very close in practice
Asaltycashew
You do make a point.
Shouneko
By their EULA you don't own any of the content. Thus you never actually win anything!
sykotic1189
I think the primary issue is how hard players are pushed into buying them, with no guarantee of "value".
PolarHailStorm
Because you place value on the outcome, regardless of always getting something, it's still legitimately gambling.
WizardofAnus
Better question: do you REALLY think that a casino could get away with a similar argument if they started handing out plushies to losers?
Lichelf
Battlefront 2 has items that are objectively weaker than other items though.
YesYouJustLostTheGameAgain
I fell for this trap years ago with "castle age" mobile game. $3000 later, because it was so easy, I admitted defeat. Never again for me:(
KinkExpert
So you're saying I could put a slot machine in a ChuckECheese so long as there's a minimum pay out of a digital code for some pixel art?
VulgarBear
But in gambling you can win something and own it. In a game no matter what you get you never truly own it as per their EULA.
Koravel34
The issue is, what if casinos were to try to get around this by making it so that every time you gambled, you got $0.01? Would that be legal
ChuckTingleBattlesTheAssGoblinsofAuschwitz
Japan has a work around with Pachinko parlors: it's skill based.
FernandoRumdebum
See I don't believe that. They're optional, and yeah they can make the game easier for you, but you're never forced or coerced. Don't get 1/
omenofstorms
Aaand your wrong. They are not oprional if they are designed to make people want to buy into them. To coerce you into skipping 1/2
omenofstorms
The ungodly grind they INTENTIONALLY put in to mkae people to want to spend cash. So fuck off with "its optional" no its fucking not
FernandoRumdebum
2/ me wrong, I'm against loot boxes..but I don't think they're predatory/gambling
calcifear
No one forces you to gamble either. I'm not against gambling but if you make a real-money gambling game, you should have to follow 1/2
surprisemotherfuckers
Does any drops from loot boxes actually qualify as value? I mean there's no resale value for star cards
Rip42
If you're paying for even the chance at them, it has value.
surprisemotherfuckers
not monetary once that crate is open
TheKenM
What if you get a repeat loot box and essentially win nothing? Then it would definitely be pushing that definition.
Camelspotting
You'd have to shut down the trading card game industry so it will never happen.
Mayokopp
In Overwatch for example you get credits for duplicates, that technically isn't nothing but it's nowhere close to the value of the duplicate
FernandoRumdebum
You aren't required to use a loot box, you choose to use it to make your game easier, gambling would mean you *have* to try for a loot box
Abracanawbra
You have to compete, you have to buy loot box to compete. You have a right to buy a whole product as advertised.
ZanarkandAbes
In this game you are still rewarded. Get a duplicate? Nah, they dismantle it and give you the credits to put back into loot boxes.
OrangeFlavours
Games prevent that by giving you in-game currency back. Overwatch and starwars does this.
JustFuckingWatchCowboyBebop
Most games give you the "value" of that item in credits if you get a duplicate. Overwatch, the new COD, etc.
captstiches21
Exactly my point. The difference is so small. I think the reason it isn't illegal already is poor understanding of the mechanic in general
CabNumber1729
So if you make a 'gambling machine' that always pays out at least 1 penny (cent for you Americans) thats not a gambling machine?
OrangeFlavours
You can say the definition is very small difference, but the actual "gambling" is very, very different.
OrangeFlavours
No, it's because the difference is very large when gambling is done in casinos where you give money for money, vs money for digital toys.
Q269
They turn duplicate items into [insert term for crafting components] so that you're still winning something.
Irishda
Unless they do a HOTS thing where duplicate Items are converted into in-game currency