Discoball10
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It was my second year of college where I began to notice a strange curiosity of my female friends at the time. There was no 1 out of 3, or even a 2 out of 3; each and every one of them had been sexually assaulted, 8 for 8. It was then that my eyes were opened to just how out of control this whole world had gotten or worse, perhaps remained.
Women I trust that most of you are doing your best, but IF you aren't let this be your sign. Talk to your daughters, your nieces, your cousins; have them set hard lines on boundaries, don't let anyone cross them, and know that sometimes the best thing you can do is say no and remove them or yourself from the situation. Oh and for the love all that is holy, no secondary locations!!
Men, we're failing, and all of us are responsible. Because it was our fathers or uncles or brothers or cousins or nephews or friends, and we never checked them, we possibly heard stories and did nothing about it. So talk to all the men and boys in your family and make them listen, DON'T ASSUME IT'S SOMEONE ELSE'S RESPONSIBILITY. Discuss with them that verbal informed consent is a must, and just because you have it once does not make it universal to every occasion or action in those occasions.
And this is not to discount the number of cases where the sexes are not male attacking female, but damn it we can only attack so many epidemics at a time.
Finally believe the survivors, when they spill their stories, all of them have gone through horrific events and for a lot of them it will not be easy to recount the details for you, or an interview, or for a defending attorney and a jury.
prufock
It's 3.
Grapeape2000
It's a skewed stat - I don't have the evidence but its like the richest 1%. There are a few assholes that are causing most of the trouble.
Bundalicious
Men are already viewed as predators. Hence the man vs bear scenario. I was accused of rape. I thought my life was over because no one ever believes the man. But she refused to do a rape kit, and she was on police file for pulling the same shit on other men. We secretly called her Satan. I am glad she overdosed to death, fucking cunt.
AlfredtheOK
I remember being in the break room at work with a group of female coworkers when the conversation turned to sexual assault and harassment, and every single one of them had a story. The thing I found most shocking was the casual way they talked about it, like it was just a fact of life. As neither victim nor perpetrator, it wasn't all that on my radar. I assumed that it happened, but in just isolated cases. That was definitely an eye-opener for me.
Sonicschilidogs
Interesting idea but more difficult to implement as sexual abusers don't exactly come forward to let people know they've been abusing people. Also, wouldn't the number also be lower than 3 because people who are sexual predators typically have multiple victims, attributing more to the number of victims stat than the number of perps stat
Vvanity
All these comments talking about reoffenders bringing the number down but they fail to realize it's not a binary of bad/good men it's a sliding scale, it's the crude jokes that lead to unwanted touches that lead to taking advantage, that lead to full on rapists and yea, some of those will do it again. But 81% of a country do not all know the same handful of men, 1 in 3 is for CHILDREN between 11-17. If there are 10 rapists at a table and you sit down, there are now 11. Be better.
dafrey
What really strikes me is that the guys I really call friends would never assault a women, that means there's *groups* of guys out there that would, which should be horrifying
Osiricus
I suspect the men that do that are far fewer than the women that it happens to. What I'm saying is that many men get away with SA multiple times before getting caught.
ILoveThiPlatform
CaveJohnsonHatesLemons
Can we stop this bullshit in general men so I can stop reading things daily about how everybody hates us?
Please?
-Sincerely, Another man.
BdrLen
I feel like it is a small percentage that is very over represented here.
mikeatike
Abusers tend to abuse more than one person. And very rarely get punished. So it is useful to talk about both.
Turkleturts
Statistically, assuming we have to use whole numbers and therefore any stats are rounded to the nearest figure - that the answer would be 0/3. Now that's not to say that 0 men are assaulting women, but that it's so few men (1/100, maybe 1/1000 or higher) that it isn't used as a scare tactic stat.
ecstaticpuppy
Do we know?
BurnieCinders
When I was asexually assaulted I talked to the women in my life about it. Every one had been assaulted to some extent. Every.
One.
MrStealUrChange
I had a girl who kept saying that if 1 out of 4 women were SA'd, that means that 1 out of 4 men were SAers.
No matter how many times I tried to explain how it doesnt work like that, she refused to even to engage or rethink.
Its very frustrating to argue logical facts with people who arent interested in logic.
Good to know there are people out there who understand
stayme
Off topic but same logic applies to gun ownership in US if you break down the numbers in that way everyone in the United States would own a gun, the fact is some own many
illegalacorn
People also generally aren’t interested in correcting a victim about the topic of their victimization
emu314159127001
If you're trying to talk to "men," it's already way too late. And "out of three?" No, way less than that, but the problem is it just takes one here and there.
You need to one, keep kids off socials till at least 16, and two, have programs for role modeling positive attitudes and behaviors. If you think taking teenagers aside and saying "rape is bad, mmkay?" do you think that stands in for whatever parenting they may not have gotten?
You teach girls boundaries, you put them in sports or
emu314159127001
whatever martial art might be useful for self defense. They'll end up walking around as someone you'd think twice about messing with. That's all it takes to keep a predator away, they look for soft targets
Boys, from the get go you model civil behavior. Not just "hey, don't hit girls!" but how to deal with feelings of anger, isolation, etc. Basically everything Fred Rogers was trying to teach
Marikhen
Reports with hard numbers of abusers and/or percentage-based reports broken down by sex/gender are hard to find. However, in 2013 sexual abusers purportedly made up "12% of all state-incarcerated people" at 161k. That's men and women. If you presume 98% of them are men that's 157,780 male abusers. The US male population in 2013 was 158,104,777. That being correct then incarcerated sex abusers made up of which .0998%, just under a 10th of a percent, of the male population or 1:1,000 men. ->
Marikhen
1) That should be taken as a WAG (Wild-Assed Guess) because it doesn't include non-incarcerated SA perpetrators, nor does it take into account bias in reporting and conviction (percentage of men reporting being victims versus women, women not being convicted versus men, vice versa, and etc.). Furthermore, the "source" I got for the 98% of abusers being men was from AI vomit, and I went with it because I was already spending way too much time looking into this. That said, sources:
Marikhen
2) 2013 population: https://countryeconomy.com/demography/population/usa?year=2013 --- SA-related incarcerations (gotta scroll down, and it only covers state, not federal): https://rainn.org/facts-statistics-the-scope-of-the-problem/statistics-perpetrators-of-sexual-violence/ --- AI Vomit: https://factually.co/fact-checks/science/percentage-reported-rape-offenders-men-vs-women-global-d1557e
Imjurbro
Your female friends sought you out. That’s why it was 8/8. I’ve had a similar experience. I’ve also had a lot of experience with young men who have zero idea of how to flirt with woman. A lot of pressure is placed on men to make the first move. Teaching young men to respect woman is awesome, but it has to be more than that. You can’t just make woman some danger zone or the good men will avoid them and the bad ones will just do whatever they want while being the only ones around.
MirroredImage
Uh-huh. And I, a woman, have never to my knowledge met another woman who hasn't been assaulted once or more than once either. Everyone I know has stories. All of them. Ask one of them sometime, if you know any.
So why precisely is that women's problem because "men are expected to make the first move," and what precisely did you mean by "making women some danger zone."
If you're about to say "can't flirt with randos anymore without a rape charge," you're about to get laughed out of the room.
Imjurbro
I have zero idea how you get that from what I posted.
gamer2k4
If you do that, the number will be a lot lower, because it's the same men assaulting different women. It's like how the divorce rate is so high, not because marriages in general are failing, but because people who get divorced tend to remarry and divorce again, and again, and again.
Vvanity
Apples and oranges, divorce is between 2 consenting (hopefully) adults and any pattern there is unrelated to assault. Recidivism in sexual assault is amongst the lowest and I'd bet you 81% of the population don't all know the same handful of people. While yes there are reoffenders it is genuinely a large amount of 1 time offenders. The stats prove your point null.
marsilies
About 41 percent of all first marriages end in divorce. 60 percent of second marriages end in divorce. 73 percent of third marriages end in divorce. https://www.wf-lawyers.com/divorce-statistics-and-facts/
Osiricus
Yeah, that is exactly my thought on this.
HollerinAtTheVoid
I get the premise of the meme, but that’s far more difficult to track because you have to catch the perpetrators to count them, which underreports the problem. And typically they’ll attack multiple victims. It’s not about victim-blaming, it’s about bringing awareness to how many it affects.
I.e. if a pack of wolves kills off your sheep, it’s easier to count the 50 sheep you lost than it is to know how many wolves were in the pack that killed them. You figure that part out later
nothingunused
But you then shoot the wolves so they don't do it again.
HollerinAtTheVoid
Yep, well….typically that’s how one would solve the problem, but *gestures broadly*
DeltaBlast
Bit of a strange analogy, because it's _all_ the wolves in a pack that (helped) kill the sheep. Oh. Wait. Is that the point?
ArkoneAxon
As opposed to the other wolves in the region, who weren't part of that pack?
thebeanzmemez
Domestic violence rates are higher among law enforcement.
HollerinAtTheVoid
UnitedSloth
Every single woman I know, myself included, has been assaulted. It's honestly heartbreaking.
rshini
and sadly because of how normalized it is, you don't always realize what happened to you is sexual assault or harassment until much later.
UnitedSloth
Exactly. It's depressing as hell.
Yverus
Honest question though, what are the male numbers in this? Are a lot of men assaulting women, or are a few men assaulting many women each and getting away with it?
IamTOOOLDforThisShite
DatDarthCaedus
Part of the problem here is it's pretty much impossible to actually get accurate numbers for that. You generally estimate the % of victims by using anonymous polls, which is already a somewhat flawed process but significantly better than looking at police reports.
How many ppl do you expect would admit to having sexually assaulted someone tho, even if assured they'll be anonymous? How many of those shitstains who admit the specific act itself would admit that doing it counts as sexual assault?
fenrir4life
A surprising number of people DO admit to sexual assault if it's presented in very factual, carefully value-neutral terms
BrokenAnimal
I have the same experience. 100% of my female friends that I've had that conversation with has experienced unwanted groping, fondling, guys grabbing their butts or boobs, not to mention the plethora of sleazy comments. Some have been straight up raped.
When I hear those not-all-men guys talk about how they will protect the women in their life, I want to ask them "From who?" Wolves? Orcs? The bloody Fraggles?
No, it's from other men. Which means we have a huge fucking problem.
ArkoneAxon
Here's the big question: WHICH other men? First you have to identify the transgressor, THEN you can do something about it.
That's also why so many men are so pissed about the Epstein files, and similar revelations about powerful males who abused their authority. It's not just "not-all-men," it's a tiny handful of vile predators hiding in the group. Like a vampire stalking the streets at night, feeding on numerous victims... so how do you tell which guy is the vampire?
BrokenAnimal
Exactly. And the fact that we're not holding them accountable to the absolute extent of the law is even more frustrating. Every single molester and rapist should have their balls removed with a spoon. Instead we allow them to become rich, famous, and even hold office. I can't imagine what the victims felt when he got elected or when his 'close friend for over ten years' got his sweetheart deal.
What a fucking world we've made...
ThrowAwayAcct0000
If you are male and you rape someone, you should have a testicle removed. It could be a quick, relatively painless procedure that wouldn't hinder your ability to have kids, but would stick with you for the rest of your life. You can't be a "tough" guy and missing one of your balls.
ArkoneAxon
Not sure which "he" you're referring to, because we've elected MULTIPLE rapists, to multiple political offices, in the United States. But as a general rule: we didn't allow them to become rich, famous, and hold office. Most of them were ALREADY rich and famous... and then they committed rapes, and their friends helped cover it up because they had wealth and influence.
TLDR: they didn't act awful and then become oligarchs. They were already oligarchs, and acted awful.
BrokenAnimal
That's fair.
I guess what I was going for was that no one should ever be so rich and/or powerful that the law doesn't apply to them.
rumandbass
My wife and I have both been sexually assaulted. I'm male though.
MeowMachine12
My LT boyfriend and I have both been raped. I'm a woman and it occurred as adult for me. He was raped as a child by a female family member.
rumandbass
I'm sorry you both went through that.
jridley
Absolutely agree. For one thing if the real stats were known, I bet it's a much smaller percentage of men who are disproportionately responsible.
If those facts were made widely known, maybe we could get out of the "boys will be boys" attitude and say no, there are just some assholes out there, and it's time we stopped excusing them.
Ivain
Absolutely. After all, a single sexist or even rapist asshole can perform a dozen sexual assaults in a month unless he's caught and actually prosecuted. Considering how many women are either afraid of backlash or just straight up not believed or taken seriously when reporting, the numbers could well be higher.
illegalacorn
Best we can do is elect them to high office
Draygen
When my daughter called me from college in tears, my first instinct was to get in my truck and start driving the 1600 miles, but she assured me that her friends interrupted it, drove the guy out of the room, and every single guy in her friend group had full intention to make him pay. She wanted the school to handle it in a way that would be permanent, and they did, but until then, that guy never left his dorm except to go to classes, because he was public enemy number 1.
Draygen
and she attended a very prestigious culinary school, so her friends were all armed with an array of knives at all times.
ArkoneAxon
This. One of the many, many issues with Ghostbusters 2016 is they missed an opportunity to do a proper sequel in which the new generation had to juxtapose their respect for Venkmann as a savior of the world, with their disgust for him as a person. They could have had a scene where he tried to claim, "it was a different time back then," only to have it be pointed out that he was the ONLY one in the group to be a sleazy creep who preyed on coeds and clients. Even then, they knew it was wrong.
MrPengy
Sorry, he what? Honest question, I haven't watched OG Ghostbusters since I was a kid, I have no idea what this is referring to.
aguacatedeldiablo
On the scale of movie sleazebags that used to be seen more charitably than they are today, he really wasn't that bad. But he did flirt with a student, without making any direct romantic overtures that I can recall, and he abused his position with Dana, since she invited him into her home to provide a service, not to get hit on.
ColdestOne
Same
MagicBandAid
In the opening scene, he lies about the results of an ESP test to flirt with a student volunteer. Also, one could argue he used the whole Zuul situation to get close to Dana. Not the worst, but I guess it's a bit sleazy.
MrPengy
I see. I appreciate the explanation
TheAnswerWasAlwaysMoreLube
A quick look into research studies indicate that a significant minority of men engage in sexual aggression. Studies estimate that between 25% and 27% of men report engaging in some form of sexual coercion or assault in their lifetime. Furthermore,, around 5% to 12% of men admit to committing completed or attempted rape.
Source:
Cross-Sectional Predictors of Sexual Assault Perpetration in a Community Sample of Single African American and Caucasian Men - PMC https://share.google/JpDxLkJsoV7dPsNPp
Ivain
That is a seriously troublesome amount, though I have found no indication in that study of how most of the studies referred to did their sample selection, and I don't really have the energy to do a deep dive right now. Sadly, especially among college men, I'm willing to believe it. The combination of alcohol, peer pressure and 'going wild' mentality means poor decisions, and paired with a probably less-than-respectful upbringing is basically sexual-assault-city.
astrangehop
It's akways frustrating when they don't list what the questions are.
PragmaticPrimate
They usually do this in the methods section (to which you need access). There they write "sexual assault perpetration was measured by a modified 17-item version of the SES" (Sexual Experience Survey) [Koss, personal communication, 2000; Kosson et al., 1997].
That description seems to match the questionnaire version found here that was in development when they wrote the article:
https://justiceresearch.dspacedirect.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/d9b3a743-ccf9-4198-954f-181b52c9da60/content
astrangehop
Oof. Thanks though!
acosmicolive
An American version of the Korean B4 movement is coming. Women don’t want to uphold our end of the social contract if there is no semblance of a society that protects us and our children.
raisarevolt
As long as it's not going to be trans exclusionary like in Korea I'm all pro.
Imjurbro
Or just find a partner that cares about you? Men want to do that. If that’s impossible to find it’s a problem with all of society and whatever bullshit men are going through too.
AllTheKitties
Which men want to? How do you distinguish them from the ones who want something else?
How can you tell a man that cares from one that wants to trick you into thinking that until you're "stuck" and then showing their true colors? Or even just the ones that will assault you on the first date? Or while you're out grabbing coffee or getting your groceries or working...
Lynkfox
What a dismissive thing to say
Tip for you. Anytime you find yourself thinking about replying with "just" in your reply... Don't. There are so very few times that it's not dismissive of someone else's pain, grief, anger, existence, ect, that make any statement that includes that at the front pretty much a horrible thing to say even if you don't think so.
LoudBirb
Obviously they want to. The problem at hand is how many times they have to be sexually harassed/assaulted in order to find a partner that cares about them.
We, as men, also need to hold other men accountable for how they behave. Even if they're our friends. Even if they're our family.
Societal change needs to come from everyone, not just women. It can start with speaking up against shit like "locker room talk" and "pickup artists" and "frat bro culture" and other stuff that objectifies women.
Imjurbro
Maybe it’s just the men I’ve been around my whole life, but “locker room talk” has always been shot down by me or men around me. Often pretty harshly. I have no idea why you would think I was saying change only comes from woman. Young men need to be taught positive lessons as well though, not just whatever “accountability” you think will change things.
LoudBirb
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that I thought you were saying that. Not really my intent at all.
And that's great! Shooting that stuff down is, unfortunately, rather uncommon quality.
And I don't think the post was implying that young men don't need to also be taught positive lessons. Just that the language society largely uses around sexual assault is centered on women, rather than the men who assault them. It's a fair point and part of the problem.
Imjurbro
It’s probably just different experiences. I just don’t think telling young men they are some unicorn for treating woman right is a good way to brand things.
acosmicolive
I’m not the subject of this discussion. I won’t be expected to birth the next baby boom. I’m thankfully aged out.
The women who are the subject are 10 and 20 years younger than me and the trend is already unlabeled, unspoken, natural and already present. Many young women were childhood victims of sexual assault who watched nothing happen to their abusers and now are seeing all this unfold. As a result they don’t trust men aren’t dating them, having sex with them or having their babies.
Imjurbro
It’s not all about you. Whatever trauma you clearly suffered, I hope you find peace. But don’t try to drag the next generation into some miserable experience where healthy relationships are somehow impossible.
raisarevolt
Go kiss the front part of a moving train
Cheerfulinsanity
Might require a touch too much self awareness, but I'd suggest some introspection into why you feel so defensive about this
illegalacorn
It’s like you didn’t even read that comment. Why reply to it?
acosmicolive
I’m not forcing something. It’s already happening. It doesn’t take much time poking around female centered online spaces to find out that young women aren’t interested in men.
If you guys want to change that you’ll have to show you care about the rights of women and children through your actions and votes. Otherwise the “male loneliness epidemic” is going to get a lot worse.
Imjurbro
So you silo yourself into spaces that hate men. Gotcha.