ThatLostLT
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4085
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https://theintercept.com/2020/03/24/kaiser-permanente-nurses-coronavirus/ Basically some hospitals are threatening to fire nurses for wearing N95’s for different reasons, such as “only if a physician suspects or has confirmed a COVID19 case.” As a nurse on the front lines of this pandemic, this is infuriating. This change is based on supply, not science. You wouldn’t send a cop out without a bulletproof vest, or a firefighter without his gear, don’t try sending me without my ppe. With such a long incubation period, anyone could have this virus; you can’t tell who’s carrying it fast enough. We simply come into contact with too many people. Other nurses, er techs and transporters, doctors, respiratory therapists, family and visitors (many hospitals, mine included, still allow certain visitors). And guess what, if I catch it, I’m probably going to unknowingly infect all my patients before I end up in a bed next to them, and then we’re one nurse shorter. If they’ll let someone wear a goddamn bandanna under cdc guidelines, then I should be able to wear an N95 if I’m lucky enough to have one.
SocoFox
Seems the only sites I can find this on are those weird fringe-y "news" sites.
skulltura
GTFOH
EirikurDC
Email sent
CaptainConservative
A lot of opinions on this based off of a site that I question the legitimacy and whether or not all the facts are there...
darkoshen
This is profit-driven insanity in the US thanks to privatized health care. I should say, the US "health exploitation system".
Mack1986
This sounds horrible but also like kinda bullshit. Gonna research
threeGiraffe
It sounds like one of those deals where one employee said something dumb or offensive and the whole company gets blamed for it.
frizzlizz
My organization tried doing the same. Stating if we practiced proper PPE in common areas we would be safe. Sorry to say a clinical lab 1/2
frizzlizz
2/2 is NOT a common area. We can’t draw patients 6ft away. Hopefully multi mil corp. learn from this lesson.
aCoolBreezeOnAHotSummerDay
This is so ridiculous that its hard to believe its even real.
sophitia
I say go ahead and wear the masks. If they get fired, I can assure you they'll have another job lined up elsewhere by tomorrow.
FlyBoy2001
I haven’t been a member at Kaiser since 1990 when I had to convince the doctor that I broke my toe. Finally agreed to x-ray. It was broke.
Three5Nines
This is what happens when you let health care be run as a for profit business.
unicorninmypants
This is happening everywhere. Same at my hospital. This needs to be addressed publicly by government agencies. If I supply my own what the
unicorninmypants
fuck is it to you! In a global pandemic we need to do what we need to do to protect ourselves. Period.
tonybell57
So what happens if all of the nurses show up wearing masks? They’re all going to be fired? Yeah good luck with that!
tonybell57
I’d live to see a hospital administrator try to run a hospital without nurses!
tonybell57
*love
troelsm
If they are low on masks then they might be forced to stingy with them, regardless of what usually is considered good practice.
SlappytheDummy
Nurses and Docs any needed EVERYWHERE. Walk away from there and sorry for the sick but with cunts managers as such, that's the only cure.
CrimsonReaper1985
Fucking hell. Can the corporate assclowns in my country be any fucking scummier? Guess I shouldn’t challenge em though huh?
GhostBear3067
I work in healthcare, please do not...
sevenfingerman
We need to call out all shity behavior during this crisis. Whether that’s individuals, companies, or governments.
justsignedupforthishit
Snopes?
MarleyCharley
I guess i know which hospital is run by grandpa nurgle
lsybarra
LITTLE KITTEN! YOU MUST SQUAT MORE FREQUENTLY!!
ialwaysexpectthespanishinqusition
TrueLegateDamar
Hey Nurgle is doing it out of love for everyone, not hatred for the lower classes.
SteelLegion
tentacularfleshscape
That's great
PicosaurusRex
I'm in the medical field as well and where I work we have to reuse all of our face shields and masks. It's just awful and gross
RumbleNtheJungle
You can sterilize N95 masks up to 5 times if your hospital isn’t doing this bring it up
luke0echo1
Everything here at my hospital is being rationed. We have to re use one mask for every patient, and written up for wearing a mask in the hal
luke0echo1
And I just signed out my mask and gown for the day. I don't really know what to think about that.
luke0echo1
Funny just a month ago if you didn't get the flu shot you were required to wear a mask in the hall or be written up.
VagariTurtle
Exactly & if someone spotted you with your mask off at all during your shift, you got written up. I got my flu shot but still, it’s madness.
ijustmadethisaccounttoreplytoapostonce
I actually challenged my DON on use in hallways and sent this article in my argument. It took a week but no we are wearing them at all 1/2
ijustmadethisaccounttoreplytoapostonce
times with exceptions to bathroom and meal breaks. https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-6701(20)30097-9/fulltext
ijustmadethisaccounttoreplytoapostonce
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28799710 this is another study with a beautiful graph of targeted vs continuous use. good luck, be safe
norticat
I’m lost on what side you are fighting from... do you want to wear pipe or not?
norticat
Ppe not pipe
RumbleNtheJungle
She does. She’s upset they won’t let her
norticat
I got confused when they argued that they did nothing...
RumbleNtheJungle
The surgical masks are different from n95 masks. They are rationing out n95 masks Bc they are a more limited supply and just giving out
RumbleNtheJungle
Surgical masks to most of the staff which she states are worthless but are actually effective for care except during aerosolizing procedures
norticat
Ok I’m less confused now.. appreciate the explaination.
coronalmassejection
Brilliant.. No one in their right mind would fire a functioning, front line medical professional for this.
theglimmeringwarlock
Ohhh do i have news for you. My former employer in Chicago just fired a nurse for this.
coronalmassejection
Shame.gif. former employer? Story time?
theglimmeringwarlock
I can't speak for the nursing side. I was in I.T., that was a shitshow to say it best.
theglimmeringwarlock
https://www-chicagotribune-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-nurse-northwestern-memorial-hospital-coronavir
guardianzero
to the front page to raise awareness
Anonawesome
I smell lawsuit.
Anonawesome
I mean, firing someone for following CDC guidance? Whoever put out that memo has the IQ rating of a potato.
Zeroforwinger
Is there another side to this story?
Bekyed
No! The firing part is fake news
silentcrs
This is the only article I've seen about this. Are there other sources?
SidneyHarbor
sevenfingerman
Yeah, this.
heteroscedastic
Should be fairly easy to find an alternative employer. Their skills are in demand right now.
taborgur
Absolutely right! Kaiser has made it clear that they don’t care about there nurses. Let them find new ones that are willing to work there.
Kalid19
Yes but they still risk losing employer healthcare in the gap, and look s of employers don't cover new hires for the first few months.
Kalid19
*lots of
BearsDontCare
I don't know of many hospitals which do not immediately provide insurance upon hire within the first month.
RebeccaRuxin
And that’s how the market is supposed to work. If only it worked outside a literal pandemic
fowlersleftfoot
Thank god you guys are safe from the great evils of socialist healthcare
FsImgur
I thought for a second it said great Elvis.
fowlersleftfoot
Socialist healthcare could have saved the king
ahunts84350
Oh yeah, how's Italy doing? Spain?
sanguinesssus
Work in hospital, by next week will probably pass China. Free market healthcare is a joke.
Malloon
Not too well. The US will be much, much worse though, even relative to population. You're fucked.
Svartlebee
Give it another month and we'll see how America is doing.
fowlersleftfoot
Very well supported by their government and hospitals while they deal with an unprecedented situation. Thanks for asking though.
JupitersWitch
Those hospitals are just as short on supplies. Even Finland is on lock down and their health official is questioning WHO's testing 1/
JupitersWitch
recommendations now that they have run out of testing capacity. It's simple statistics. There just isn't enough of anything.
fowlersleftfoot
Are any of those hospitals threatening staff with immediate dismissal without appeal if they refuse to unnecessarily risk their lives?
JupitersWitch
They are being threatened with termination if they were their own personal personal masks which you can't do anyway.
fowlersleftfoot
Regulations would state they can’t treat patients without a mask either, but you don’t seem too concerned about that, bootlicker
CaptainConservative
Yes because Italy and Spain are doing a much better job....
fowlersleftfoot
They are actually. Very much so.
CaptainConservative
Yup. More deaths vs infections. Lack of medical supplies. Rationing. Yup. Much. Better. LOL
JonnyTightlips
Italy has the second oldest population in the world and got hit far worse, far earlier before the rest of the world knew how bad it could be
fowlersleftfoot
Already past the peak of their virus spread and starting to see death numbers decreasing. Hospitals well stocked and staff well supported
fowlersleftfoot
Rationing nowhere in Spain and Italy. Supermarkets are fully stocked. Should try getting your info from places other than breitbArt
Treblaine
I haven't been this mad at a Kaiser since 1914.
blumpk1npie
Yeah ngl my first thought was "what country has a Kaiser"?
saganworshipper
C'mon people. That's good.
MicroChannelMaster
Heh.
Natilda
I haven't been this made at Kaiser since 1973.
maststick
Only in a healthcare system as broken as the US would nurses have to wear their own masks. Let alone have to justify wearing them
Rainty
I assure you, nothing will change after all of this.
TinyEggplant
This lack of ppe is going on all over the world right now. It’s not an America thing. Stop with the “only such a broken system” crap.
ThatLostLT
Although you have to admit, all pandemics aside, our hc system is pretty much shit ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
whitebbwolf
come to the UK for a spell
MarkmyMonster
Same here in the UK. Been buying scrubs and PPE for medic family from my own money to try keep them safe.
secretoaster
I hope huge liable civil lawsuit after this pandemic and put Kaiser out of business
CaptainConservative
Yeah there's shortages of masks everywhere so not sure how that's unique to the US...
Kbantar
Really? Every other country has hospitals threatening to fire workers for daring to wear their own masks? I didn't know that.
GhostBear3067
I work EMS in the US, most facilities if they threaten termination it is for NOT wearing the appropriate PPE.
MileHighLivin
This post is looking a lot like bullshit designed to ruffle feathers. And it worked.
faintrush585
Thats because in the US money is the only thing that has value and life doesn’t matter to the rich. Our president made that loud and clear.
asoftstrawberry
Though the US health system is busted I don't think this particular situation is unique to the US. The world is struggling to get PPE.
GhostBear3067
From my front line perspective it feels like this was all just so unanticipated NOBODY thought to or had time to stock up on PPE.
asoftstrawberry
Thank you for being on the front line!!! You are appreciated!
Mimsey
What are some other countries where a corporation is banning healthcare professionals from using THEIR OWN PPE under threat of firing?
asoftstrawberry
I mean I'm not saying that is happening or saying that I'm an expert (I'm not), I'm simply saying that other countries are struggling too.
VinerialBlumpkin11
This isn't just a US thing dumbass. There is a global shortage.
Mimsey
This post is not about the mask shortage, dumbass. It's about Kaiser not even allowing healthcare workers to use their own personal masks.
VinerialBlumpkin11
It's because they reuse them, and that violates both staff and patient safety protocols. If they allowed it, anyone who got sick could have
VinerialBlumpkin11
An incredibly easy to win lawsuit dumbass.
BukkakeRider3000
TruthJusticeFreedomAndAHardBoiledEgg
maststick
Except it won’t kill the shareholders. “I’m too rich, and your survival will hurt my year end dividends. Please die quietly”
lncorrectGrammerNazi
SwedeOnAnIsland
In Sweden there’s such a shortage that private persons have donated masks to hospitals and doctors have to make some protection equipment
JoeChill
Yeah, people here just like complaining about US healthcare. Big thumbs up for private citizens of all countries pitching in though!
ArdentSlacker
You speak as if US healthcare were not the most predatory fiscal trap after student loans.
JoeChill
It's only that way because the government got involved back during the time of Nixon
ArdentSlacker
That's the opposite of what happened. Nixon took government out of it. To allow hospitals to be for-profit.
SwedeOnAnIsland
on their own.
cdub77
Not just their own masks, but facilities have told them to wear bandannas if no ppe available.
BklynPunisher
Simple. Wear the n95 mask then a bandana over it, to conceal the “actual” mask.
ThatLostLT
GhostBear3067
Despite the fact that the idea should not even be needed, I like your thinking.
JHawke
I don't think the later part is wrong.. sure It's not the best protection, but advising them to wear SOMETHING when nothing is available >
JHawke
> surely isn't bad behaviour.
maststick
It is because they’re lulled I to a false sense of security/proximity with the PPE equivalent of a placebo
MaladaptedMedic
Trust me. There's not a single healthcare worker lulled into a false sense of security wearing a bandana instead of a mask or N95. Not one.
RebeccaRuxin
I think it’s the fact that nothing is available is the problem. They shouldn’t have to work without proper PPE
JHawke
Course not, but you can hardly ask a virus to just be polite about the whole business and take it easy.
maststick
Be at prices the hospital want to pay, but that shouldn’t matter
maststick
The hospital has a (legal) responsibility to protect its workers from risk/harm. If workers can buy it the PPE is available, it might not 1/
rmiGod
As a eastern european and the husband of a medic, US has it's issues for sure, but in this case most countries lack proper equipment.
armagetz
Shhhhhhhhh. Anything critical of the US is gospel and shouldn’t be questioned here.
deekermans31415
Shhh, America is perfect in literally every way and thus has no room for improvement in any way. Amy critics are traitors or communists.
armagetz
Did not say that. But the rapple rapple based off reactions to a twitter post is absurd. And the statement here is patently false (1)
armagetz
(2)and your attempt to defend a factually and logically indefensible statement with “Well you might think the US is perfect” is disgusting
breadedfishstrip
It's one thing to have shortages, its another to actually punish people for using their own PPE
[deleted]
[deleted]
armagetz
Also worth noting that the hospitals doing this aren’t across the board, but those from this one company in California locations.
armagetz
Which, BTW, tends to stray far to the left of average American politics on their policies and regulation.
MyPasswordIs1234
There are shortages in many places. Source for Poland: google "w szpitalach brakuje masek" and you'll get many articles talking about it.1/2
Mimsey
People keep making this same mistake. This is not about the shortage. It's about a corporation barring use of your own masks.
MyPasswordIs1234
I did not reply to the post. I replied to a specific comment which was basically "the hospital and/or the government should provide masks".
MyPasswordIs1234
So yes, your healthcare system is bad, but no, this is not one of the symptoms. 2/2
arghthisissohard
Why isn’t it one of the symptoms? Just because other systems have it too? Maybe they’re all bad?
GlebReawer
"Hey I found one similarity in these two things. That means both are shit and utterly broken!" Try reading the post and comment thread again
arghthisissohard
Wow ok. That’s not what I was saying either. Your comment is also no help whatsoever.
arghthisissohard
I was just querying one aspect of the commenter’s logic that a lack of PPE is not a symptom of a bad healthcare system. Why can’t it be?
armagetz
So apparently every country with sig. infection is broken because the US is far from unique in having mask shortages.
fjjyrd
I love your country but your healthcare system is abhorrent in my eyes.
Mimsey
Will one of you motherfuckers explain to me how you're getting "mask shortage" out of this when it's clearly about the corporate power? /1
Mimsey
This post is about a corporation telling health professionals that they cannot even wear THEIR OWN MASKS. /2
Mimsey
This is not about the availability of masks. This is about a corporation sacrificing human lives based on incomplete information. /3
Mimsey
So tell me why DOZENS of you are ignoring that and jumping all over the mask shortage angle. /4
armagetz
But hey, post critical of the US on Imgur = automatic mass upvotes, reality be damned.
GlebReawer
Try reading the last sentence again, there is a clue in there.
armagetz
What clue? Where again you attempted to generalize an isolated event? Your head might explode when you hear it happened in Cali, (1)
armagetz
(2), whose political policies and regulations run far to the left of typical America, with the blessing of a union representing the workers
ThatLostLT
RaptaGzus
They're not if they're ASTM rated. They're just only really useful for not spreading COVID to others if you have it.
RaptaGzus
With N95 as ex, being rated at 95% eff at filtering 0.3um particles means that it's better at smaller ones
ijustmadethisaccounttoreplytoapostonce
Of course N95 protect from smaller particles, but viruses in sputum are much bigger than that. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26952529
Grudgebearingmidget
y'know what, I'll take my fucking chances with ANY protection than none at all, medieval troops wore leather armor, wouldn't stop a blade-
Grudgebearingmidget
still increased their chances, however marginally for survival
twozerooz
It's really not that simple lol
Xaldyn
Surgical masks are extremely useful for preventing infection during surgeries. Hence their name.
Flodos
According to that data even an n95 mask isn't fully protective against the virus.
RxNoob
Thing is the virus is usually in respiratory droplets, not just floating around on its own. Respiratory droplets are generally 10 to 100 um
expertLevelProcrastinator
Well.. Thought experiment: droplet w/hi virus concentration hits mask on outside, droplet size reduzed due to evaporation, hence droplet 1/2
expertLevelProcrastinator
2/2 size smaller/virus amount same, droplet can surpass mask barrier and is breathed in. There are numerous other examples e.g.voids in mask
solarspyder
Source?
FsImgur
"Uncle John's Bathroom Reader". He knows his shit.
MrKnowItAll1903
Someone on the internet.
BobusMaximus
Even with those sizes there is a percentage reduction. Not 100% but I saw a study which said 70% reduction so no, not virtually useless.
ShanGiraffe
https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-materials-make-diy-face-mask-virus
VodkaReindeer
Wanna guess where the number 95 comes from?
cakeworth
There are also layers of material right? I’m not a microbiologist, but would love to hear it from a pro’s perspective.
ShanGiraffe
.
HeyOP
Because the virus isn't floating around freeform, it's in fluid droplets of spittle or phlegm or perhaps blood.
ThatLostLT
WHO says it could be in certain conditions & are already considering upping to airborne precautions for everyone
ThatLostLT
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/16/who-considers-airborne-precautions-for-medical-staff-after-study-shows-coronavirus-can-survive-in-air.html
HeyOP
1) In the condition where a procedure being performed causes aerosolization, possibly. "so far ... we are confident that the guidance
HeyOP
2) "that we have is appropriate." WHO errs on the side of caution, which is their purpose.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Daemon7777
So if you cant get 100% protection just do nothing at all or go for 70%?
ShanGiraffe
Source. https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-materials-make-diy-face-mask-virus
SirNacho
Check this out, data driven reasons everyone should be wearing masks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoDwXwZXsDI
16745
Other way round. When people's lives are on the line you'll grab for anything that helps, even if it's just a little.
VisofSer
Collated resource for diy masks with the source links within - https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-materials-make-diy-face-mask-virus/
BobusMaximus
source- think one of the studies I saw was done by PHE, have a google along those lines. Was quite interesting!
BobusMaximus
"When people’s lives are on the line, you better be 100%"- it would be nice for everyone to be walking around in HAZMAT suits but it doesnt>
BobusMaximus
work that way.
[deleted]
[deleted]
BobusMaximus
that was my point. The previous guy said "you better be 100%". HAZMAT would be 100% but in reality, PPE is proportional to the risk, so mask
legna880
It is way more complicated than particle size vs pore size. Look up most penetrating particle size.
legna880
Source: me, I have designed filters for 17 years, and have 9 patents on filters and filter processes
iwantthatpost
You should make a post about them and all of this I would love to read it. Advanced favourite and doot.
UserNameRedacted
.
legna880
Let me see what I can put together and I'll link a post here.
iwantthatpost
dooted
StandAgainstTyranny
Seconded, I'd love to hear more about this, and it's pretty critical information right now. Followed:)
[deleted]
[deleted]
legna880
I'm going to post it to the original post as well. Hope it helps explain it!
legna880
I'll put something together and link it here.
StandAgainstTyranny
You're amazing❤
GravyEducation
When this is all over lawyers are going to be foaming at the mouth to go after pieces of shit like that
gurlsnuggler
I’ll be going after them too.
Trashedpanda
Yes they will! My teachers have all been telling me how much insane litigation is going to come from this
VinerialBlumpkin11
They are reusing them, which violates patient and worker safety. Them not enforcing best practice rules would let them be sued. Just
VinerialBlumpkin11
Because you are too ignorant to understand why a rule.is out in place doesn't mean you are right.
FallenJester
You or a loved one may be entitled to compensation!
AlienWatcher
Probably. Most likely not.
gabble13gjgj360
They already are running ads for the elderly literally abandoned in care facilities.
RumbleNtheJungle
Guys not doing it to be shitty in this instance. It’s a rationing thing. These are masks hospitals use very rarely and just can’t get enough
samesamebutnotthesame
Not just this. I have 2 friends who are doctors in NHS. Up untill last week they were told not to wear masks. Maybe to not insight fear?
RumbleNtheJungle
Or to save masks for when things get worse and are they are more important. Our hospital didn’t say anything and we had a lot of staff
RumbleNtheJungle
Wasting masks and if/when it get worse here we will be needing those masks
littlefathen
Okay but it says they are using their personal masks not hospital provided ones, so how would that affect the hospital's supplies?
RumbleNtheJungle
They are trying to save them for the higher risk personnel and patients. A standard mask is proper ppe for most situations according to cdc
Bekyed
Read the article! Kaiser said that's not the policy. There is no proof that picture is from the union. The protest is about lack of PPE
Bekyed
https://www.nationalnursesunited.org/california-nurses-association
Wyldkat80
1/2 GF is a nurse at Adena in Chillicothe. Charge nurse told them same thing! She and colleges, made masks w vital filters & was told
Wyldkat80
They can’t wear them as long as there are paper yellow masks available. After those run out they can wear a two viral filters they made!
DreamWeavr
Unfortunately by then quite a few of these nurses won't be anymore.
barbwirelove
Yes but their families can settle (as sad and horrible as that is)
GravyEducation
True. But litigation can only correct the mistakes of the past. I want them to get their comeuppance tomorrow but it won't be that way
SidneyHarbor
SidneyHarbor
The legal problem is nurses that bring in unapproved equipment are a legal liability.
Frenchgeek
If you can still afford a lawyer by then.
bananafoen
But you Americans want to sacrifice some people for the economy?
iCurse
Would be class action suits. Hundreds of millions for the law firm, pennies for the victims
JessicaShadowless
If anyone of us survive
Cthulhukitten
Class act lawsuit
erroniousmaximus
Taking hospitals to court over shit practice especially in times line this guarantees a payout. They’d be thrilled to do it.
StarSpangledAwesome
This is personal injury law. Most of my clients in that field work on contingency, so it is extremely affordable! This could be a class act.
Tortfeas0r
Mostly it’s labor law. Separate attorney fee provision in addition to any jury award. Contingency fees only on settlement amounts
StarSpangledAwesome
I suppose, but I feel like this wouldn't be covered by workman's comp. insurance?
Tortfeas0r
Depends on the state’s laws, but that would also likely require an injury (not just fear of one). WC isn’t my practice, just adjacent
Sensenotsocommon
Considering a lot of these cases would likely be guaranteed wins, I'd expect a lot of pro bono work.
SarcasticComment
And since they're nurses... maybe a little pro bono on the side.
StandAgainstTyranny
Class actions, baby!
Tortfeas0r
Contingency fees, they get a cut of the award/settlement(30-50%). Most US labor laws also have an atty fee provision separate from the award
GravyEducation
whatseventhepointt
He meant to say class action. $33 for the nurse and $30 million for the lawyer.
ShaveSteedlesmack
Out of a $63m judgment? Or did you mean $3m for the nurses and $30m for the lawyers?
captainclutch
You mean “owe nothing unless we win” cases
Silverbananahorse
Yes, what's that called? Pro Chubo work?
PeRySh
Contingency.
liquinas
On-contingency