theshopliftingseagull
292367
23735
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Lately this set of images has been circulating:
Why golly, that does look bad, doesn’t it? Know what? Someone is a f#@%ing liar. Because the top picture is a copper mine
That top image is, in fact, a mine. It’s a copper mine. This particular mine is BHP’s Escondida Mine, one of the 10 largest in the world.
Before this continues, to repeat … that’s a copper mine.
In 2015, we used about 19 million tons of copper. Getting that copper out took digging big holes in the ground, just like the one in that first picture. It also involved using millions of pounds of blasting agent, carrying rock to crushers, spraying that crushed rock with millions of gallons of sulfuric acid, then letting the resulting toxic sludge sit around in leach fields to extract the copper.
How many times has someone approached you and warned you that copper is a bad thing and that you shouldn’t use it? I’m willing to bet that number is zero.
On the other hand, the world produces about 650,000 tons of lithium each year. Lithium exists mostly in the form of concentrated salts. Almost all that lithium—greater than 95 percent of it—is produced through a process of pumping underground brine to the surface and allowing it to evaporate in big pans. It’s separated from the brine using electrolysis.
There’s nothing you would think of as mining. No blasting. No trucks driving around carrying loads of crushed rock. No sprays of sulfuric acid.
This is a lithium salt flat
This is a brine pool for extracting lithium. (Uyuni salt flats, Bolivia)
The primary sources of lithium are from the Atacama Desert in Chile, and the Uyuni salt flat in Bolivia. These are two of the deadest places on Earth. It’s not exactly that nothing lives there, but … In 2003, a team of researchers published a report in the journal Science in which they duplicated the tests used by the Viking 1 and Viking 2 Mars landers to detect life, and were unable to detect any signs in Atacama Desert soil in the region of Yungay.
Not all of the Salar de Atacama (the big Atacama salt flat) is this dead. There are some pools there with very salt-resistant shrimp, and weirdly enough flamingos come to this desolate, otherwise empty place. So you know what they did? They made the area where the flamingos go a national reserve (the Los Flamencos National Reserve.) It’s both desolate and lovely. They don’t extract lithium there.
Now, it’s a safe bet that someone, sometime has told you that lithium mining is awful. That it requires big holes like that one that was used to make the copper pipes, and copper wires, and copper electronics you use every day. Someone told you that, even though it’s not true.
Why did they tell you that? Because someone knew just enough to know that lithium is used in electric car batteries, and that someone was enough of a dickweed to want to make electric cars look bad. Even though they knew they were lying.
This is a NASA photograph of the Atacama salt flats. Those blue rectangles are basins where lithium is extracted from brine.
Now, about those oil sands
“Oil sands” is is one term for them. The phrase you hear more often is actually “tar sands.” Why? Because what’s in those sands isn’t nice, fluid oil. It’s sticky, thick, blocky and solid. If you cut a chunk of it, oil doesn’t pour out. It’s just stinky black sand.
And getting oil out of the tar sands? That’s not done with a neat little well. There are two primary ways of extracting oil from tar sands. One is to force steam into the sands through a series of horizontal wells. Then another series of wells is drilled to extract the oil freed by the steam. And all it takes is about 1,500 cubic feet of natural gas to make the steam that drives out a single barrel of oil.
But that steam extraction? It accounts for a small fraction of the oil extracted from the Athabasca tar sands.
Most of it comes from a process that looks like this
And like this:
Gosh, you know what that looks like? Mining. That’s what. There’s the blasting, the trucks, the crushing, and then a mixture of hot water and caustic lye (sodium hydroxide) is added. It’s all mixed up into a black, sandy paste, then the paste is piped over to a plant where it gets churned until the oil floats to the top. Then the oil gets sent down some fine pipeline (Keystone, anyone?) while the remaining muck is dumped. It takes about two tons of sand to make a single barrel of oil.
So … yeah. That’s the truth. That’s what lithium “mining” is like. That’s what oil sands “extraction” is like.
That’s how stupid this meme is.
Now, it’s the internet, people. Play nice.
Article by Mark Sumner
sauce:
http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/5/6/1524012/-Someone-is-lying-about-electric-cars-on-the-internet?detail=email&link_id=9&
Cat tax
HesperidesBell
The only lithium i extract is from Kurt cobain
zencronix
The "oil sands" where I live have reclaimed every site the have been to FYI.
SilverSwearsalot
As a diesel mechanic with multiple mates working in multiple mines, can confirm mining for coal, ore, copper, gold, is rather destructive.
awesomekamel
I drive an electric car charged by the solar panels on our roof. Please let me know how that's worse than ordinary cars.
mmmmmmShaiHulud
What about the new Graphene batteries OP?
fornostrangereason
LachrymoseEngineer
https://i.imgur.com/Ofd6v2u
NeonArchetype
Yes
Hetuni
Nah, it's killed me since I lit it.
JudgeJack
willyg308
Inconceivable!
TemporaryUzername
this is what that same oil sands location looks like today http://imgur.com/drC57ry
UncleBert
I pictured you yelling every word as I read this.
LearnedCoward
I read it in Lewis Black's voice
UncleBert
+1 cause most people think their oil is miraculously pumped out of the ground with little environmental damage. Very informative.
TheOnlyCanadianWhoDoesNotLikeHockey
Man, I didn't think I'd see a cat run over on imgur today . . .poor kitty
particleguy
Some of us like getting drunk and watching the game, others like getting drunk and playing halo
DeltaBladeX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq3yBV3e_UE
samsonguy920
I am not sure which part of the post to feel most infuriated at.
ButchMcKenzie
Seriously. Trigger warning your shit OP.
DaryltheDeathclaw
Joke?
awkwardadvances
Yes. This isn't Tumblr.
DaryltheDeathclaw
I was just wondering, guys...imma cry now...
kungfufil
By an evil electric car on top of that! Full of lithium... probably
Goku2012
Fucking brilliant...
Pikachoochoo
I bet that lithium was taken from the lithium mine in the picture. These liberals are fucking savages.
TojS
Lithium extracted from mines that are harsh on the environment.
FsImgur
By forced cat labor.
SergeiBoobtitsky
You're not wrong! http://www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/2012_0731-Cat797_01.jpg
FsImgur
That is indeed a shame, dressing a cat up in a blue suit, making it wear a hat.
[deleted]
[deleted]
infernoinmyass
laaaaame
TheOnlyCanadianWhoDoesNotLikeHockey
VindictiveRidge
Upvoting for best pic.
TheOnlyCanadianWhoDoesNotLikeHockey
VindictiveRidge
and upvoting again!
chbarts
You don't like hockey either?
quitesrsly
Tailings from lithium carbonate are terribly huge and toxic, sorry. Like it or not, nothing comes with no impact.
deltajesus
But some things definitely come with less.
ShmakarooniLovesHeathLedger
Brain: jump in that lithium pool. Body: why? Brain: you gotta
starrydance
A car is a big item with lots of materials. If you are buying a new car, it uses resources to create and then to fuel.
theMonkeyTrap
plus most of those resources are recyclable.
NeverTooSoon
And copper is one of those resources.
jcarn
But fuel (energy of various kinds) was also used to extract, create and form those resources into what is now your car.
starrydance
Totally! But it's used to make every new car. The impact the fuel used after does matter
VidiVeniThenSheLeft
TL; DR - Bolivia has gigantic cellphone and laptop battery-puddles.
Leithoa
And Toyota owns most of it.
Andreanne
They'll soon need some freedom too I'm sure.
LearnedCoward
That stuff is good for bipolar too
JamBarn
Pretty misleading post actually. http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150402-the-worst-place-on-earth
r000t
But I--- I mean they need it!
moosehunt
The picture painted by daily kos is as deceptive as first pic. google: lithium extraction toxic?
ElFlaco9
So the top picture is a copper mine?
mrbinky3000
The article was a little ambiguous on that.
BootsNCatsNBootsNCatsN
Coltan (columbite–tantalite) look it up; mined by children; destroying the Congo and in just about every electronic device in your home.
tankmemes
My social teacher just asked us to read about this.... weird man
dianesawyer
And the miners kill and eat gorillas on their mining expeditions!
JamBarn
And China. http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150402-the-worst-place-on-earth
iwantcandyjujubambi
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/blood-coltan/
BootsNCatsNBootsNCatsN
Right! I mean you cannot post on Imgur without being part of the problem. So let's calm down and take a real look at everything.
Dismang
My thoughts as well Its not those demanding it thats the problem its how its supplied, and how it is in that example is a fucking disgrace.
johnman4198
Prius batteries are made of a nickel based compound. Nickle is extremely dirty to mine. Lipo is used in some electric cars. Like the Tesla
Atomic2
Theres also the fact that a car will drive 100k+ miles on a battery. For perspective, 100k miles at 30mpg requires 175 barrels of oil.
theMonkeyTrap
another factor, EV motors last longer than typical 150k car (3k hrs@50mph). plus there is less wear &tear. IMO EVs sans battery cud do 300k.
Nuttsy
You're taking the battery as a power source, instead of storage. You still need to power it somehow. And solar isn't exactly a magic bullet.
Atomic2
Certainly not, but generating electricity continues to become more and more efficient. Even today its far cleaner than burning gasoline.
Nuttsy
And on average, burning gasoline is the high mark of it. Unless you're really well invested, or already nuclear, you have a long wait ahead.
FreeBirdEagleIII
About 31 gallons of gas per barrel. 100k / 30(mpg) = 33,000 gallons. More like 1000 barrels of oil for 100k miles.
Atomic2
You made two mistakes. Mistake 1, theres about 19 gallons of gas from a 31 gallon barrel. Mistake 2 is math. Check your numbers.
FreeBirdEagleIII
so 19 gallons, I'm still closer than yours. My math is estimated but accurate.
Atomic2
100,000 miles on 30 mpg... 100,000/30=3333 gallons. 3333 gallons/19gallons per barrel = 175 barrels.
Atomic2
You missed a decimal Im assuming. Probably did 100,000/3 instead of 30.
TruthGiver80
There's a lot of copper in electric cars.
PhillipJFrenchFry
You'll never get me copper!!!
Ragodofthesun
There's a lot of copper in normal cars too
TruthGiver80
True, but electric engines are made from a lot more copper.
TruthGiver80
But yet copper is recyclable.
theMonkeyTrap
as in regular cars plus its recyclable! burnt gas OTOH just keeps sitting in atmosphere.
Adthay
there's a lot of copper in most houses as well.
CaptainHughJass
Protip: tear the copper pipes out of your walls for liquor money.
Zahnradfee
Stop environmental destruction! Tear down houses!
italianbillclinton
Sadly copper is required for literally anything with electronics, including gas-powered cars. You're missing the point.
HnngRightInTheFeels
It's not required, there are more conductive metals out there, it's just the cheapest. But I know what you meant.
italianbillclinton
^indeed. +1 for clarity
TruthGiver80
I only use electronics made with melted down swords from the Bronze Age.
italianbillclinton
Epic
LordInsidious
Too bad you use oil once and re-use lithium over and over and over and over and over and over.......
MidwayMarshall
You could technically insert yourself into the carbon cycle through gasification/liquefaction and reuse the carbon from the oil
bufferkiller
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[deleted]
bufferkiller
Draconiene
been awhile @IAlwaysUpvoteDeanWinchester @IAlwaysUpvoteSupernatural @thedeanwinchester @thadeanwinchester @DeanAndIDoShareAMoreProfoundBond
Draconiene
https://media.giphy.com/media/gFVDcTZfQzkQg/giphy.gif
IAlwaysUpvoteDeanWinchester
Stealing this!
happyishturtle
I just can't resist upvoting that wink
bufferkiller
Thank you.
v
imwithcayde6andproud
Make more winks means more upvotes for you.
bufferkiller
Fucking mobile won't let me access all of my gifs to share more of my glorious winks. https://imgur.com/PrJs3x8
PoolOrAPond
In case you needed some more /a/P5aLq
thedeanwinchester
*wink*
bufferkiller
https://imgur.com/Jv7gl7d
catsandcheetos
I love him
BookJunkie27
*Sigh* Two things I can't resist: Upvotes and Dean Winchester.
bufferkiller
Well, you've got good taste.
NightFuryLee
Sploooooosh n pie
bufferkiller
https://imgur.com/VkBwJn8
KatPat26
https://m.popkey.co/59631d/xMMj5.gif
Vanillathunder1206
Have to give Sammy some love too.
Gian4MVP
Good on you, OP. Preach
Rampagingtortoise
Just wait until you google "Oil Sands sulfur pyramid". Its terrifying.
Nprudym
Pshhh... Next your going to tell me jet fuel can't melt steel beams smh
Sinus23
The sad fact is that most of the electricity the planet uses is made by burning coal. 1/2
sixsixone
You do Know how much pollution coal plants produce right? Cus as a union boilermaker I do. And with scrubbers n bag houses it's not alot
Keepermaster
If I recall correctly, wasn't the average production around 1kg CO2 per kWh? Oil is a bit less, and nuclear power is like 48g per kWh.
LetTheFeelsFlowThroughYou
In Norway over 90% (don't remember the exact value) of the energy comes from hydropower plants. Sadly this is not possible everywhere
Keepermaster
Somewhere between 97-99%. But 50% of our power usage comes from other countries with non-renewable power, like Russia, Denmark etc. 1/2
GODofHUNGER
Sooooo, copper bad. We should start advocating to stop copper use.
eromitlab
Using copper for things lends itself to monetary value, which is exploited by tweakers stealing it and selling it as scrap to buy meth. QED
victorged
That particular copper mine is an acid leech mine - which while not a great method is not the usually primary method of copper extraction.
victorged
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_extraction_techniques <- In-situ is however the primary method in the US, at least since the 1920's
Mining4Dumps
The acid leaching method is actually 100% contained and only practiced in a very small percentage of mines
ZaraMoro
But copper can be recycled with relative ease. So it's not the worst medium. That would be plastics, which are difficult to recycle.
HuntToEat
But this argument pits the two industries against each other while only looking at vehicles. What about all the other things we use oil for?
mycakedayismycakeday
It isn't really an argument about the industries as a wholes (fossil vs electric), but about the mining of their resources.
HuntToEat
Then the comparison still isn't equal. I'm looking at the vast amount of products from oil. Lithium is fairly specific is it not?
mycakedayismycakeday
Fair point. Lithium is just one of many required for a battery.
drunkenvalley
Far as I've read in this post it does not argue anything, it's simply and plainly shown the two are grossly misrepresented.
imjustgonnaleavethishere
Like the synthetic plastics utilized in making those electric cars.
MarekS
Oil is used because it's still so abundant and cheap. Eventually synthetic fuel will become viable if we still need petroleum products.
Disenfranchised
Oil can be replaced by alternatives, such as bioplastics and other uses. Granted, that's going to take upwards of 20 years.
Disenfranchised
If we cut vehicles out of the picture (including ships and semis) we use a lot less oil.
TheMajesticHarpyEagle
If we quite breeding like catholic rats so many problems would stop.
catcherintherye
if we had started 40 years ago like we were told to, it would have been all over by now.
imnotashark
THANK YOU. And if said Oil Sands don't get back up and running shortly, we will start to find out what happens when we run low on oil...
dasapm
its already happening and even the government knew about it for decades. remember all those wars in the last century?
JamBarn
It's a finite resource, EVERYONE knows.
JamBarn
No we won't. Saudis are keeping the price low to put the sands out of business.
oilrocket
Saudi production has stayed constant, the increased production comes from american shale reserves being opened up with fracking.
oilrocket
Just this time the Saudis aren't cutting their production to keep prices high.
JayEnfield
At current crude prices, we could quite safely just not extract for awhile. There's no money to be made at this price.
Schizamp
Tough times for us in the O&G industry right now.
TheMajesticHarpyEagle
Adapt or die.
JayEnfield
http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/01/daily-chart-6?zid=298&ah=0bc99f9da8f185b2964b6cef412227be Move the price slider.
jimmyriba
No reason to do tar sands at all. We absolutely must not burn the oil we already have in proper reserves.
jimmyriba
If global warming is to stay below 2 deg (which will still give huge problems), at least 1/3 of known oil reserves must stay on the ground.
oilrocket
That is not an issue, primary oil extraction only recovers 10-20% of oil reserves. The best enhanced techniques can bring that up to 50%.
TheLazyLibrarian
Um, sad news, but according to what I read that line is supposed to be less than 2 degree, and according to NASA on 3/03/16, we just 1/2
TheLazyLibrarian
reached that point: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2016/03/01/february_2016_s_shocking_global_warming_temperature_record.html 2/2
onlyhalfghost
*must stay unburnt. Petrol isn't the only product of oil refining.
jimmyriba
Good point. I'd still suggest to hold off on the tar sands, since it costs so much environmental destruction, and we have large oil reserves
AmiEvilYet
We're still running a few *MILLION* barrels a day in excess supply vs demand, with reserves of billions. It's not an immediate concern.
imnotashark
Oh for sure, not that I want it to get there either, would just go a long way to showing how much we ALL rely on oil is all I meant.
AmiEvilYet
(I'm pro oil, but I'm also pro alternative, namely because our economy is already fucked enough as it is and removing oil won't fix it atm)
l987654321
That's exactly how I identify as well! As an Albertan, it's hard as fuck to explain that to anyone...
HuntToEat
Also I don't think they have an electric car that can tow my fifthwheel.
Gaidenninjacat
They can if they want. The problem with electric cars is the battery not the engine power. Batteries are too damn big to be practical.
HuntToEat
Also as someone who works in a battery shop, they are too fucking expensive.
FrankToast
Yeah, torque isn't an issue with electric motors. Why do you think almost every modern locomotive is a diesel electric or regular electric.
AmiEvilYet
Elon is currently being a godsend in that area though.
DeeMTeam
+1 for a very informative piece, I hate that picture, its a complete misdirection.
MyOath
"Informative". OP lied about the lithium mining process. Lithium from brines is <50% not >95% as he claims.
ErpVertsErpVertsFerErvrywern
I can't be 100% sure... But I think that 'oilsands' image is Isengard... The oilsands are basically a giant polluted, cesspool...
DrKriegersClone
They're much better recently. They've made considerable progress reducing the need for tailing ponds.
Raguleader
Have you noticed how you can usually tell an internet meme is dishonest if it comes across as really condescending to the target audience?
DrKriegersClone
The post itself uses obsolete information to bash the oil sands, though. Modern organic extraction with solvent recycle is MUCH neater.
wildfathom9
I use sodium hydroxide every day to etch propeller blades. Not the nicest stuff but also not that bad. I imagine there's far worse in mining
Panzerbjorne
I downvoted, then read the post. Upvoted now
watchrinserepeat
alot of copper in electic cars... just saying
JamBarn
This post isn't much better. http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150402-the-worst-place-on-earth
Answer42
Some electric vehicle manufacturers, like Tesla, use AC induction motors, which have no magnets.
JamBarn
Hopefully that's the future.
Answer42
While slightly less efficient, induction motors are significantly cheaper. It seems likely more companies will go this route.
Malkozaine
Also Lithium is very recyclable as I understand. That's why you should properly dispose of all of your lithium batteries.
theMonkeyTrap
you need a lot more upvotes
happyishturtle
It's just so wrong.. So many people will do absolutely no research on this and continue spreading lies
Qumefox
Whoever started it likely has a cellphone and a laptop.. Which are probably the two biggest destinations of lithium batteries.
kungfufil
Also I'm pretty sure the oil pic is a fracking oil well, rather than a tar sand facility.
TheMostSignificantDigit
I'd say SAGD. And by the surroundings, definitely could be Northern Alberta
Rampagingtortoise
@OP it gets worse. Google "Oil Sands sulfur pyramid". Its terrifying. Google images gives a good sense of scale.
Spisepinden
Idiots and ignorants don't fact-check their sources, though.
upvotehypnotoad
I guess not entirely when you consider electric cars need lots of copper wiring.
CitizenDickbag
So do regular cars. Anything w/ electronics.
theMonkeyTrap
which is recyclable, as opposed to fuel.
IDontWannaShare
WHERE ARE ALL THE ANGRY PEOPLE?
kujie
Who would be stupid enough to even fall for it -.-
theMonkeyTrap
not many when looking at it with full attention but most people rarely do. unfortunately such ppl is what these things are designed to sway.
BlumpkinPie69
It was shared by my cousin on fb who also tends to share a lot of bullshit
YouCantSpellSlaughterWithoutLaughter
Even if it were true, it does not prove anything.
shyguymontanan
In addition this post does not clarify that harmful rare earth mineral mining IS done for electric cars and cell phones.
shyguymontanan
The location of these mines are, for the majority, in northern china and mongolia.
shyguymontanan
Which isn't any worse or better than oil extraction just an alternative way to fuck up our planet.
SilverSwearsalot
If you're talking about the cat being horribly mutilated by the remote controlled car, he survived the little battler...
Mrziffle
That is the rare cat-a-pillar feline. When cut in half it make a duplicate self.
50ShadesOfGraves
Cat always wins
iglooo101
As for John Deere
NickHazzard
I approach the entire internet as if it was 'misdirection'.
YouCantSpellSlaughterWithoutLaughter
If more people were like you, my friend...
Wander1236
It's a little more than just a misdirection I think
vanfem
When I saw the top picture I thought it was a sarcastic joke. @OP going to such lengths to disprove it made me think it's serious.
UnadulteratedFun
And with misdirection you mean blatant lie?
settlerswouldridethesebabysformiles
'Alternative fact,
Cryeing
You mean the lying in this post? I live in Alberta, and the lies that are being spread are ridiculous, take In-situ, it is NOT a "tiny"
10sky
What did @OP lie about exactly? Everything seems to check out from where I'm standing.
Cryeing
Saying a tiny fraction, 47%, in 2010, is not a tiny fraction, that's almost 50%! By now it's surely over 50, maybe even 60%
ButterfaceTaintClown
he meant missed erection.
TheMostSignificantDigit
It's misdirection. There are open pit mines and SAGD (pictured) for oilsands operations. Oil too deep, use SAGD. (1/2)
TheMostSignificantDigit
If its shallow, use open pit mining. Which ever is more cost effective. Did you know the Alberta oil sands have been leeching into the(2/3)
TheMostSignificantDigit
Athabasca River since before oil co. were up there, and that mining parts of the oil sands is reclaming the land and cleaning the river. :O
dazed38
The industry also does a lot of work in land restoration to make it more productive and create habitats after the "oil" had been extracted.
Cryeing
fraction, this is easily verifiable on Wikipedia, 47% in 2010 was in-situ, and it's only increasing. The DailyKos is far from impartial.
gazxog42
But its on the interwed (of lies)
stalewaffles
M8 he took the b8
tomyironmane
Not pictured: the coal mine that feeds the powerplant to charge the electric car.
Tikityler
Fun fact, those are coal powered cars for the most part. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of electric cars I want more Nuclear to help.
PastureofMuppets
local power co. (SMUD) gives option to pay for wind/solar power sources, so charging an electric car with that; no coal. Agree nuclear too.
Tikityler
If it is an option where you live, but considering how small of the total power wind/solar is its more likely coal
Spaminal
Wish people would understand that Nuclear Energy is the future if we ever want to leave this planet!!
blubbl
I will never get why people still think nuclear power is a good idea...
Tikityler
Honestly it's the future if we want to stay as well. Cleanest, safest, most cost effective. US has not approved one in over 20 years.
Spaminal
Your statement is also frighteningly true! It's literally the only energy source that when operating properly has ZERO negative effects!
MeateaW
The only person I know that has an electric car pays a premium to ensure his power is 100% renewably sourced.
jsktrogdor
Fun Fact: Just 160 giant container ships (of the 6,000 that exist) produce more pollution than all of the cars in the entire world.
ImDarkerThanYou
In what time frame? This fact lacks vital context
forteller
Thankfully it's easy to fix: Stop buying so much shit you don't need! (not you in particular, all of us)
lowkeybrotherofthor
That is so ignorant and you have no idea how much the maritime industry stimulates economy. Greater than 90 percent.
lowkeybrotherofthor
Well if you enjoy receiving goods, don't bitch about it. Source: I work in the port with containerships.
lowkeybrotherofthor
The ships are also working to run on natural gas and some even plug into electricity in port.
VodkaReindeer
And meat production produces much more than both of those.
notdaevl
it's in their own interest to safe fuel tho
soapyshinobi
Think about how much pollution would be produced if each container was attached to a truck and driven across the world. Ships r beder
Garzhuk
Yea, we should really drive trucks from China to the US.
BootsNCatsNBootsNCatsN
Fresh Air, Yo! Terry Gross is my spirit animal
CharlesFuckingBronson
For clarity, you're not talking about CO2, right? You're talking about smog, particulates other side-reaction pollutants?
Vote4Bern
Here's the solution to the problem...annihilate 3/4 of the current population. Source for all problems is us humans.
[deleted]
[deleted]
lowkeybrotherofthor
That will never happen. They will use solar for some functions but a majority are going to natural gas.
JayEnfield
Solar power is not a viable option for container ships. If all of the area of a large container ship were 100%efficient solar panel >
JayEnfield
And the sun were directly overhead at the equator, then the ship would have 1/4 of its current engine's power.
JayEnfield
To save any for night-batteries, it would have to putt around at 3-5 knots, which just does not work.
unreasonable
You will quite simply never have solar powered ships! They require a staggering amount of energy every day, hense the massive fuel burn
unreasonable
The only electric ships that exist now are nuclear powered. You'd have to pave the ocean in solar cells to provide enough energy!
Nuttsy
Methinks the statistic may be more honest, or at least telling, if you took it by mass of the transported cargo, though.
CoyoteTraveller
That's not a very fun fact.
TheoLu
Speak for yourself.
hahnsb2
And per ton hauled, large ships are the most fuel efficient vehicles on the planet.
[deleted]
[deleted]
Worldsapart
You don't have clean air? Where do you live? 19th century London? China??
JayEnfield
As an economist: this statement is straight-up knee-jerk bullshit. This is not how income distribution works at all.
Tosy120
Well what part are you disagreeing on? The first or latter statement? (or mayhaps both...?). Personally I'd like both...but problems I guess
thundercactus
The problem is that if every country produced all the items it needed in-country, a lot of nations economies would collapse.....
thundercactus
Simplest example; Japan makes a lot of cars. But they have little natural resources. So they import most of the materials needed....
Bystandr
Container ships are not the only ships that burn bunker oil. Worse than burning bunker oil or tar though is coal , and we burn more of that.
thatguyyouthinkyouknow7
My boss is working on outsourcing some stuff to china. I instantly thought of this.
jsktrogdor
They burn fuel that is basically the shit left over from oil refining. It's so thick *you could walk on it.* They warm it up and burn it.
CPTKilljoy
Old Saint Joe!
A10ThunderboltIICASJetAircraft
....paper... Paper....PAPER!
CPTKilljoy
I swear to god I didn't think anyone would get that reference. So glad I was wrong; imgur's the best.
ThatGirlWithTheStuff
Good ol' Bunker C.
dirtehscandi
That tragic moment when you run out of kerosene and have to use diesel to clean up an HFO spill in the engine room....
FrankToast
Hey, that's the same stuff Union Pacific gas turbines burnt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pacific_GTELs
jsktrogdor
And because they're ships that operate across oceans, you can't regulate their emissions once they're out to sea in international waters.
dirtehscandi
Yes you can, Google MARPOL and the IMO. Trust me, HFO is nasty, nasty shit but it is still regulated
RepostFromLastWeek
Its 15 ships and its based nitrogen oxide and sulphur oxide emissions, not CO2.
jsktrogdor
So... nothing I said was incorrect. Got it, thanks.
lurkmoarjono
Well......
valen00
your honour, he headbutted me in the fist with his face is also correct,
dirtehscandi
In a lot of ports nowadays, all vessels must either burn low sulfur HFO or diesel in order to reduce emissions
jsktrogdor
Ports are not international waters. Ships wait 200 miles off-shore for their turn to dock because they're not regulated out there.
dirtehscandi
The anchorage for Aqaba, Jordan is like 1000 ft from the pier
lowkeybrotherofthor
You are so stupid. Anchorages are a few miles out not hundreds.
dirtehscandi
Negative, I'm a marine engineer and every anchorage I've ever had to wait in is maybe 1-2 miles off shore tops
0101010111010001
More pollution is misleading. That's only true for one pollutant in particular. They don't even come close for gross CO2 production.
BootsNCatsNBootsNCatsN
Yeah exactly sulfur pollutants! It is not misleading, it is pollution. 37 times all of the cars in the world! YELLING. sorry got worked up
0101010111010001
www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-the-15-biggest-ships-in-the-world-produce-more-pollution-than-all-the-cars tldr; cars are the bigger problem
BootsNCatsNBootsNCatsN
Damn
twozerooz
Co2 is far more of a concern
jsktrogdor
Still though.
JayEnfield
No, that's not "still though", that's "Oh, you're correct, my 'fun fact' was misleading bullshit, just like OP was on about."
jsktrogdor
It's not bullshit.
JayEnfield
Well, let's review: Your statement makes a very wide and false claim based on one very narrow counterfact. Therefore: Misleading bullshit.
maremen
You are aware that CO2 is not the only pollutant, right?
JayEnfield
Was that meant to be a reply for the other guy?
whyteraven74
Low sulfur bunker fuel produces 25,000 lbs of CO2 per 1,000 gallons of fuel .That 1,000 gallons is roughly 4 tons of fuel, and large...
whyteraven74
ships can burn upwards or 14 or more tons of fuel in an hour. That's a lot of CO2 per ship per hour.
freezingpilot
But they replace thousands of trucks/trains/planes for transportation. Proportionally, they are eco friendly compared to the alternative.
jsktrogdor
You're saying that it would be worse if we transported goods across the Pacific Ocean with trucks. I agree, that would be a bad idea.
CharlesFuckingBronson
Going 5 miles by sea uses less fuel than going 1 mile by land, per pound. There are cases where we can choose which we use.
freezingpilot
Bronson gets it. Ships, despite their CO2 emissions, are the most efficient form of transport we have, per mile.
[deleted]
[deleted]
CharlesFuckingBronson
The very large diesel engines are ships are by far the most thermodynamically efficient combustion engines, though. They outperform (1)
CharlesFuckingBronson
cleaner fuels like road diesel, or especially biodiesel, synthetic diesel, and diethyl ether, they wouldn't have this problem. (4)
CharlesFuckingBronson
all electric vehicles when you factor in electrical generation losses. The problem with ships is not the engines. It's the fuel. They (2)
CharlesFuckingBronson
whole marine mechanic workforce. Permaculture/appropriate technology principle #1: Small and slow solutions. How little can you change (6)
Worldsapart
Likes post about bs meme...in turn makes bs argument ant ships. Dur.
CharlesFuckingBronson
That would be a MUCH more genuinely sustainable solution that scrapping and rebuilding all those excellent engines and retraining the (5)
scruffymarcher
Prolly cause the main exhaust from cars are CO and water vapor
CharlesFuckingBronson
Also the main exhaust from ships. They get stuck with shittier fuel, so a higher % of their emissions are other things, though.
quickhand
I spoke to Dr. Corbett of U of Delware the other day. He's the originator of that quote, and he told me he was misquoted and it's not true.
CharlesFuckingBronson
get stuck with the fuel small, land diesels can't handle and/or that population centers won't tolerate. If we switched them to (3)
CharlesFuckingBronson
while getting maximum improvement? (7)
[deleted]
[deleted]
CharlesFuckingBronson
power in that. If tar sands and fracking become less viable, either due to supply problems or political pressure, renewable fuel (2)
CharlesFuckingBronson
cultivation can coproduce syngas and charcoal. The syngas can be converted to ultra clean synthetic diesel, while the charcoal can be (7)
CharlesFuckingBronson
As military vehicles, life-necessity delivery trucks, fire trucks, ambulances and ships run on it, and it's the most efficient by far. (4)
CharlesFuckingBronson
batteries at night. There are carbon neutral and even net-carbon-negative ways to produce replacement diesel. Coppice and bamboo (6)
CharlesFuckingBronson
The ships we're running still work. Their engines still work. The workers who know those engines still work. There's a LOT of economic(1)
CharlesFuckingBronson
Putting PV cells on ships for daytime power assistance is well and good, but that big marine diesel engine is MORE efficient than (5)
CharlesFuckingBronson
replacements will get more widespread. Diesel is both the easiest and the most worth doing, because it's the most essential (3)
CharlesFuckingBronson
buried forever in the ground, meaning 60% of the CO2 photosynthesized from the cultivated plants is now buried where it belongs. (8)
Mining4Dumps
I'm a mining engineer in Canada where copper and oil are our main focus, pm me if you have any questions needing more explanation
lawrus
Let's say we all of the sudden have the technology to make oil (and copper, I suppose) entirely obsolete--much cleaner, cheaper alternative1
lawrus
Would you be willing to give up your job?
Mining4Dumps
Luckily with my schooling I would never be without work, every mine that now needs to be closed would require engineers for the reclamation
italianbillclinton
You have the perfect username
Mining4Dumps
Hahahahaha thanks :)
Cal1te
You guys recruiting any of us poor oil workers who have been laid off? :D
Mining4Dumps
They got approved to increase production so need more truck drivers so check that out, not sure if they're still looking
Mining4Dumps
We have hired quite a few from the coal mines that all closed haha, pretty sure mount polley was hiring truck drivers a little while back
Cal1te
Hehe dont hold a truck license, im a mechanical technician. How are Canadian firms for hiring foreign nationals by the way? 1/2
Cal1te
I know the American ones are an absolute pain in the ass, im an EU citizen, also held a Russian visa. 2/2
Mining4Dumps
Goodluck getting a job in Canada without a license
MicahL
Can copper melt steal beams?
Mining4Dumps
only when it reaches 911 degrees fahrenheit
ThisStatementMightBeFalse
That's 488.33 Celsius for non-"Freedom Eagles"
somedrunk
How do I escape the oilfield?
Mining4Dumps
That depends on your current situation within the oilfields
TheBlueGenie
I work at Coal Valley and TekCoal Alberta. Do you see any mines opening in the near future?
Mining4Dumps
Mines in general? Or are you referring to coal mines?
PPKrang
How much fresh water does it take to extract the oil from the sand? I think, and it's been a long time, fresh water consumption is enormous
Mining4Dumps
It doesn't necessarily have to be fresh water, all they really need water for is to make steam and cause the bitumen to become less viscous
Mining4Dumps
Then it can be separated from the sand allot easier
dakotan25
I hope you're not affected by the fires!
Mining4Dumps
My dad is a supervisor at kearl lake for imperial oil and they've entirely shut down production and are currently focusing on the well being
Mining4Dumps
Of the people in northern Alberta rather than the oil
dakotan25
I'm raising a pint of Colorado Toffee Porter for you and your old man.
Mining4Dumps
I actually worked at one of the only mines in canada that used sulphuric acid leaching of copper so feel free to ask about that method
BowtiesFezzesAndStetsonsAreCool
... Timmins? :D
Mining4Dumps
Haha nope it was in BC
BowtiesFezzesAndStetsonsAreCool
Poo! I'll meet an Imgurian friend one day!
donotworryigotthis
I try to tell people mining is a temp land use --> reclamation. But. Whats the long term plan there? Carbonates to acidic waters apply?
Mining4Dumps
Alot of rock is naturally acidic once exposed to oxygen so really it's no worse to put acid on it than it is to just leave it to create acid
Mining4Dumps
I believe down in the US they use another method where instead of excavating the rock they instead inject the acid into the ground
Mining4Dumps
The entire process is extremely well contained and eventually you're left with rocks that now no longer contain copper
Mining4Dumps
So a mine isn't necessarily open to the idea of wasting acid because in turn they're wasting copper that is recoverabke
Mining4Dumps
Every last drop of acid is collected from the waste dump because now in that acid are microscopic copper that we want to recover
Mining4Dumps
Strategically placed and liquid always wanting to flow to the area with less pressure
Mining4Dumps
Lots of testing has been done on this method and proven that no acid is able to actually escape the contained areas to do the wells being
Mining4Dumps
And have hundreds if not thousands of wells that in turn pump the acid back out of the ground now containing the minerals that are wanted,
mytruepersonality
Are there regulations like America in helping fix the land. how costly and how long does it take for the land to heal.
Mining4Dumps
Yes definately, you need to have a plan in place prior to even starting the mine, and the process is usually in place the entire life
Mining4Dumps
The mine I work at has three resident bears and a cow calf moose, whenever they're spotted work in their area is shut down for the time bein
mytruepersonality
thanks for the info.
Mining4Dumps
Anytime :)
Mining4Dumps
Trees, top soil, grass, wildlife, lakes, creeks are constantly being built and planted throughout the mine life
torpthorkertoo
is 2 tons of tar sand = 1 barrel of oil true? A cubic yard of dry sand is more than 1 ton... So seems impossible.
valen00
the oil is filling the gaps between the sand grains
BlackHartMTB
My google research says that 4000lbs of sand yields about 250lbs of oil.
AlaskanOCProducer
Science!
Mining4Dumps
Yeah its definitely true, it's the bitumen that you want to extract from the tar sand so it depends on the percentage of bitumen present
Mining4Dumps
most oil sands will present 70-80% bitumen volume in one tonne of tar sand, which is required for one barrel of oil so its an accurate fact
DickChaney2
How do I hide a body?
Mining4Dumps
It'd be extremely easy to hide a body in a tailings pond, or even in a tailings dam. Just one more benefit of mining
MobiusTurtle
As a mining engineer (though not working as one), what do you think about the current state of the industry?
Mining4Dumps
It happens, I remember when it happened in early 2000's. It'll pick up again, the industry is related to the dollar so much and vise versa
MobiusTurtle
Interesting. Would a background knowledge in geotechnical engineering help at all?
Trufflesniffer
God i hope so, i work in the Bakken shale play and things are really getting tight for us down in the states.
Mining4Dumps
When the industry picks up again it'll be very good for people in the industry such as you and I as companies will be in a demand for us
Mining4Dumps
Something most don't realize is right now Canadian mines are actually making more money due to currency and selling to the states and asia
Sheldonian
What pollutes more? The copper extraction or oil?
Mining4Dumps
Now that's a question, I think what people don't realize is alot of pollution tied to the oil industry is more so the companies that use oil
Mining4Dumps
To create their own products, these massive factories create the worst pollution and it's just blamed on oil and then generalized to mining
LessanderoCortez
A thing that would interest me: could mines in general be powerd by electricity alone? I'm thinking electric trucks and so on.
LessanderoCortez
Would that even be efficent? Sorry if my english sounds weird, I'm not a natice speaker.
override367
Doesn't the refining of sulfurous bitumen release sulfur dioxide into the atmosphere, posing long term health risks?
UmaroXP
Pfff don't tell me how to live my life. If I have questions I'll ask them right here, right out in the open. Deal with it.
Theghost1292
Is this all true?
papasmurf1118
A man is interested in your information. A man says you should make a post with this information in it.
Mining4Dumps
that post would be massive haha, I made a post for an AMA about mining but I never make it out of usersub, people are very uneducated about
Mining4Dumps
mining and Id really like to do my best to change that and open the eyes to how serious mining companies actually are about the environment
ThisUsernameIsNoLongerAvailableIsStillNotEvenAvailable
I believe that. For the most part although I'm sure there are exceptions. But some things are inherently harmful to the environment... (1/?)
ThisUsernameIsNoLongerAvailableIsStillNotEvenAvailable
You could be the most conscientious person around but if you're job is to blast things out the ground, just exactly how (2/?)
LavaAxe
Quite frankly, I don't believe you. Not after the hellhole of a mess they've made in my country.
Ghihom
How many mines are in canada and where are the centralized? what is the avg. % of land used by such, and are they open mines or like coal
Mining4Dumps
Engineer not a statistician
Ghihom
well then u can probably answer 2/4 of them
Mining4Dumps
BC-Gold/Copper/Coal/Silver/Platinum
Mining4Dumps
Northern Canada-Diamonds/Gold/Coal
mediumsizedtittycommittee
My boyfriend is working at Ekati Diamond mine right now. I keep trying to get him to steal me an uncut diamond but no dice.
Mining4Dumps
Sask-potash
Mining4Dumps
Maritimes-Nickel/Zinc
Mining4Dumps
Ab-Oil sands
Mining4Dumps
Copper mines are almost always open pit and usually also have molybdenum, gold, silver, and platinum present with the copper
Mining4Dumps
Majority of mines in eastern Canada are underground mines, coal mines depend on the method of removal of the coal so is underground or open
Mining4Dumps
As for types of mine it actually depends on 1.the ore body type 2. the location of mine and 3.the type of material being mined
Ghihom
Cool thanks for the info
JayEnfield
As an Albertan: Athabasca oilsands extraction = "World's largest crude oil cleanup operation." Rebrand that shit. :D
sonic745
*the size of England.
TheMostSignificantDigit
"Cleaning the Athabasca river since starting operations"
tonto5150
Has the Athabasca river been subjected to many breaches or contamination from oilsand operations? Sincerely, uninformed Alberta tradesman
disgruntledtruckdriver
It was contaminated long before operations began. 60 years ago locals couldnt eat fish from the athabasca
Mining4Dumps
Sadly you'll never be able to know the truth is much a situation, very well the river could be contaminated just do to the oil being present
Mining4Dumps
or it could very well be from the actual oil industry, but good luck getting anything from one of the wealthiest industries in the world
IFNg
Yes, although the major unabated concern right now is the leakage of Napthenic acids into the watershed. Difficult to deal with.
Neuronutter
What happens to the sand that's extracted? Can it be used in cement or concrete?
HairytheSheep
unrelated but not: in coal mining we do one of three things 1. Underground mines would pump or dump waste into abandoned portions of...1/2
HairytheSheep
..the mine. 2. You make a giant hill (like a mountain compared to the flat land around it) with the waste and cover it with top soil so..2/3
HairytheSheep
that grass would grow on it. 3. Open (strip) mines, once the coal was taken out of an area they would dump the slurry in the pit and bury it
[deleted]
[deleted]
Mining4Dumps
Someone has to do it, and take the heat that working in mining comes with, but nobody else can better the industry standards
[deleted]
[deleted]
Mining4Dumps
Hardrock mining tailings ponds are able to house healthy fish and even drink, so i don't see why we can't get oil tailings to that point
Mining4Dumps
it's things like this that are why I chose mining engineering, I want to make scientific advances for our environment to lessen our footprin
italianbillclinton
I respect this immensely. Keep fighting the good fight.
Mining4Dumps
Sadly we are currently unable as miners to ever get a full recovery of a mineral, so usually 90-97% is recovered, so in oil that small (1/2)
Mining4Dumps
amount of oil left in the sand makes it hard to use for other reasons, so the sand is sent to Tailings to be contained until we can one day
Mining4Dumps
hopefully develop a way to re-mine tailings and remove 100% of the product, some older mines are now having their tailings re-mined today
jenniferlawrenceisabear
Truth be told. Probably none of this stuff is really good for the environment, but at least electric cars don't spew even more crap.
BartimaeusTheFat
The most environmentally friendly car is whatever you already own.
pitothepowerof3
Explain to me your logic here. You're making a blanket statement with factual evidence. How does that hold up?
BartimaeusTheFat
Yeah, I may have been a little vague. My point was that the environmental price of a new car is almost always worse then continuing using (1
pitothepowerof3
That makes a lot more sense.
jenniferlawrenceisabear
agreed, people forget about the manufacturing process from start to finish and how much it consumes.
BartimaeusTheFat
your current car. No matter how efficient the new car or inefficient the old one, the cost of manufacturing outweighs any positives. (2
theMonkeyTrap
thing never gets mentioned is that lithium once mined can be recycled! dead batteries are a very high quality ore. oil just stays in air :-(
zagibu
Depends on how the electricity is generated. If it's generated in coal plants, it's actually worse for the environment than gas powered car.
MadCat221
Imparting energy into that lithium through electric recharging may involve not-exactly-clean combustion-powered electrical generation.
TheMajesticHarpyEagle
Big power plants are more efficient. Woudlnt need to burn as much coal/oil to power the same number of cars.
[deleted]
[deleted]
TheMajesticHarpyEagle
Yep. You know, we both got downvoted... dont know why.
80percentlegs
Neither do I. This is what my masters was on. You are both correct.
baconandeggsequalbreakfast
Still, what are the tires made of? How are parts transported and manufactured? Electric cars still need oil...
TheMajesticHarpyEagle
We meed oil like we need parents. To provide support until we are good on our own. Then they need to butt the fuck out.
TheMajesticHarpyEagle
The old needs to end so there is space for the new, unless the old works better. And oil is not a better option.
infernopg
I've read a 10year comparison between a hummer and a prius, from production to disposal of the cars where all together the prius did more 1.
infernopg
environmental harm than the hummer and the main reason was the problematic disposal of the batterys iirc.
ImHereToTellYouThatsWrong
disposal is an ongoing problem, if there was half the funding going into battery research as goes into alt-hydrocarbon harvesting (1)
ImHereToTellYouThatsWrong
like tar sands we would have a lot of more chemically friendly and cheaper batteries at production level already for now it's prototypes (2)
valen00
The NiMh batteries should be 100% recyclable without much effort, they are full of high value metals and relatively easily seperated
MidwayMarshall
except flooded lead-acid batteries are more efficient than NiMh and are more commonly used. That and NiMh is not Prius standard
MidwayMarshall
some are Lithium Ion.
valen00
Flooded lead acid aren't more efficient in terms of charge and particularly not for discharge in an EV application, and you need 100's of lb
bartman2014
The power stations still supply power to electric cars (they need to be charged) so the net benefit to the environment is minimal
TheMajesticHarpyEagle
Not really. The big plants are more efficient, so less equals more.
valen00
A decent coal plant is ~60% efficient, a car engine is around 10%, the total energy efficiency for the electric car is higher even with 1/
valen00
fossil sourced power and the intrinsic grid losses by ~2x, in terms of NOx and particulate emissions its *way* better, small engines suck 2/
valen00
basically
kungfufil
Some parts of the world produce their electricity without oil, gas, or coal.
packardcaribien
Very very few, and those that do don't really use cars that much anyway.
ProbablyDrunkAgain
You are correct, but the children don't want to hear that.
packardcaribien
Eh, you get used to Imgur self censoring against anything, opinion or fact, that is against its very particular worldview.
valen00
France? they get most of their power from nuclear sources
packardcaribien
Which is the only legitimate alternative (save location dependants like geothermal and hydroelectric) to fossil fuels - but (1/2)
TheClayKnight
Germany and Canada don't use cars much?
packardcaribien
Canada gets 36% of its energy from oil, 28% from coal, & 24% from gas.Tho it's admirable they're trying to go green, they aren't succeeding.
aPokal
Dude, we moved a church to mine brown coal. http://bashny.net/uploads/images/00/00/45/2014/03/07/fa273dff2e.jpg
packardcaribien
The only countries not dependent on fossil fuels for electricity ATM are Norway and Iceland, thanks to hydroelectric and geothermal.
whereamandwhatamidoinghere
Germany got 35% of its power from Oil, 24.6% from coal :O. Checkmate.