RoadTripped
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Character alignments and the debates that negate them
FP EDIT:
So, over the years I've seen plenty of these "charts" but when I posted it, I had been digging for awhile to find one I actually agreed with (mostly), and I had never run across this one.
(so I apologize for respostedness)
What I love about Alignment Charts is the dialog that erupts immediate up sharing. Back in my D&D days, we'd spend hours arguing about character choices and whether it adhered to their alignment...which of course led to finding more of these charts and debating further.
The point is, we immediately start sharing character perspectives and information, and I always end up learning something new in the chaos.
Thanks for the upvotes. Here's to the Entwives.
RobotsAndLasers
Uh, chaotic good is Harry Dresden's spot...
GODfreyJones
Neutral evil: "REEEEEEEE"
Chosan1
Superman was Lawful Good until Zack Snyder and his murderverse turned him in to the character with the highest body count this side of Rambo
OzmaAsimov
I disagree with all alignment charts. Morality and ethics do not fit neatly into nine categories.
HandsomeJack19
Yes. Another thing I have in common with Mal. Along with raw sexual magnetism.
topchelf
Now I know that trump is lawful evil. Neat.
nobodytooimportant
He might actually be chaotic evil.
Tybalt1564
shouldnt the mid be "neutral neutral"?
DaDisser
It is. But True Neutral is the official D&D name for it. 3.5 is the last rule set to have used it i think.
smorgado
-250 EXP when Vader tosses the Emperor for playing out of character.
weeharley
+1 for Firefly
spydrax
Neutral evil all the way!!
moonsaves
V is heavy Chaotic Neutral.
NightRush
Definitely. Good goals but he's very indiscriminate in his actions.
YouSufferWithCognitiveDissonance
True neutral http://orig06.deviantart.net/1979/f/2011/023/0/8/true_neutral_dr__manhattan_by_4thehorde-d37wc6p.jpg
AnonOmis1000
maybe because YOU WERE FUCKING HUMAN AT ONE POINT IN TIME?!?!?
DarthReznor
+1 for watchmen
MajorLunaC
Nah, that's actually just stupid. There are most definitely many differences between a dead cell and a living cell.
Earan
Malcolm Reynolds is canonically CG as of the 3.5e book Complete Scoundrel IIRC.
JohnWickdidnothingwrong
More wrong than right. Picard, Lawful NEUTRAL?
Souperior
except if its BvS superman
MechaNinja
Picard looks for ways to help as much as he can in spite of the Prime Directive. Superman doesn't care about laws that are unjust.
FaceDownButtUp
But doesn't Superman do anything and everything the President tells him to do? In some animation that was the case.
DrDave94
Yeah that's how he is in the dark Knight returns
Dolewhipper
and he only acts that way because frank miller couldn't write superman to save his life.
MechaNinja
I've never heard of him doing that, but that does sound like something he'd have done old school.
InternationalPhoneticAlphabet
"always obeying the law" and being "lawful good" are two different things. its about adhering to a moral code.
MechaNinja
My complaint is that @OP calls Picard Lawful Neutral. He only went rules lawyer to spite people who pissed him off.
MechaNinja
Oh, sorry, Supes. Yeah, actually Supes may have been a bad complaint on my part.
easilytrolled
Ents get unneutral, they just do it slowly.
InternationalPhoneticAlphabet
fighting saruman and the orcs had to be done for their survival, that doesnt necessarily mean they abandoned their alignment.
mooseboots
I want one of these with world leaders.
Wilfud
Superman is lawful good? Doesnt he kill criminals? Murder without a trial isnt lawful... arguably "good"
Skullord
Only specific arcs like Injustice (or the recent movies) have him kill people. "Superman vs The Elite" better shows his ethics.
RiderofFamine
That movie was fucking brilliant.
behrditz
Only in the Zack Snyder movie, which everyone called him out on.
IOwnTheSpire
Superman had killed lots of times.
Schmedes
And in several comic runs
SpacePlans1
sigh... angsty, murdering, collateral damage Superman. Thank you, Zach Snyder.
IOwnTheSpire
Snapping the neck of someone trying to kill people isn't murder.
SpacePlans1
K. What about levelling inhabited buildings because you're angry?
IOwnTheSpire
I watched the fight carefully and Zod was the one who was throwing him through buildings.
SpacePlans1
I would go back and look to see if you're right about that, but I'm not watching any of that movie again. You win this round! *shakes fist*
newsguycraigevans
Typically Supes is a big boy scout. There have been times when he kills in the comics, but it usually clear that he has no choice.
Phantomime
I like this list, but I can't help but feel that Mal would be chaotic good instead, since he very much despises the government.
CKnowles
Remember he was a sgt and fought tooth and nail to establish a govt. Not liking *this* govt doesn't mean not liking *any* govt.
Earan
Malcolm Reynolds is one of the examples WotC use for Chaotic Good in Complete Scoundrel ; you're objectively wrong if you think he isn't CG.
delpharseven
He despises and avoids the big government, but he is willing to cooperate with small government, eg. the sheriff in The Train Job.
gunterleeds
He runs a ship and issues orders to his crew, which he expects them to follow. He also was in the military. He's definitely pretty lawful.
BishlamekGurpgork
values. Only cherry-picked bits of Lawful kind of apply to him, while neutral fits him like a tailored suit.(2/2)
BishlamekGurpgork
He respects authority without feeling beholden to them. He is generally honest, but can be led into deceit if it suits him or his (1/2)
ShouTuckersGhost
Lawful isn't about obeying the government, it's about having a strict code you follow.
Yetiphobia
Don't agree at all. Lawful is about accepting imposed rules, not about following your own code. Lawful people would have a hard time 1/2
finitefiction
I agree. And he definitely has a code he lives by
BishlamekGurpgork
deceit if it suits them. All of these things suit Mal very well, while only cherry-picked parts of lawful might apply to him. (3/3)
BishlamekGurpgork
Disagree. Lawful implies odedience to authority, according to the 3rd ed rulebooks. Also closed-mindedness, lack of adaptability, etc.(1/2)
BishlamekGurpgork
Neutral characters may respect authority, without feeling beholden to obey them. They are generally honest, but can be tempted into (2/3)
Yetiphobia
2/2 for example breaking the law to do what they considered good, and also of doing evil to uphold the law. It's a pain in the ass.
Zerker700
I am pretty sure judge dred would be a good pick for lawful neutral imho
newsguycraigevans
Well, he is the law...
RoadTripped
Nice choice.
KickMeElmo
Honestly, I'd remake with that change. Otherwise, spot on.
SpacePlans1
... rookie
Feytira
Is Picard really Lawful Neutral? *ponders*
NightRush
He breaks the Prime Directive SO MUCH to do good. Definitely more LG than LN. Still Lawful because he tends to do things by the book, but >
NightRush
>he follows the spirit of the law rather than the literal interpretation.
InternationalPhoneticAlphabet
afaik the prime directive gets assfucked at every opportunity if it's in the way of doing good. picard is definitely good, its his >
InternationalPhoneticAlphabet
> lawfulness that's questionable.
LordVulpix
He's Lawful Good actually. He prefers to follow the Prime Directive and do the good thing.
Feytira
He only follows the 'laws' of good? XD
egaode
I once tried to play DnD with a guy who faithfully played chaotic neutral. It was not as fun as it sounds.
FuknMiracles
CN can be done right. More often than not, it's done very badly by selfish/annoying pricks. LG is the worst alignment though.
egaode
Yeah we'd all be taking our turns on a mission and he'd be back in the last town up a tree or something. So annoying.
FuknMiracles
Sooo, not participating? I would rather have a bad player non-participate than trying to their idiocy down other players throats.
egaode
It was a combination.
kyzentun
"The Prime Directive prohibits me from helping you." is the perfect line for a trekkie not helping someone else.
Felderburg
Huh. I *guess* it works, because we're not a capable culture yet....
ExcuseMe2
(Then Picard helps anyway) -most of TNG.
BewilderedBeaver
The Prime Guideline.
Buahhittaja
Picard actually violated the prime directive many times. Once he saved an entire planet. I think he's more like lawful good than neutral.
kyzentun
I'm not a Trekker or Trekkie, so I consider the Prime Directive to be the running joke of the series because it's violated so often.
Yavin1v
"There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute. Even life itself is an exercise in exceptions." picard
LurkerOfDarkness
If you look at how it is evolved in the series it actually all makes sense. The purpose of it is to safeguard people, it is not meant (1/?)
LurkerOfDarkness
To be a straightjacket, an absolute, it is a basic philosophy, that in general means you shouldn't interfere in other societies (2/?)
PurplePixieUK
The Prime Directive is the Federation's Jimminy Cricket. Just guidelines really ;-)
LurkerOfDarkness
Based on human history, and several episodes in Enterprise we see how it often leads to misfortune, despite the best of intentions (3/?)
ChristinaNotChristine
Ahem. Trekker, thank you very much.
rbudrick
Dont' listen to this trekkie.
kyzentun
One prefers TOS, the other prefers TNG, and I can't remember which.
LordAlnerd
Unless I have classified myself wrong, a trekkie prefers TNG
DrFartstheTRex
What if you prefer DS9?
StellarPsyke
You bring shame to family
SgtEziosRequiem
You're weird.
whitechocolate185
And then...
glutenfreepotato
Where does deadpool lie? Chaotic good or chaotic neutral
Rheios
Depends on the representation. Lately he's been skewing towards CG I'd say, but overall? I'd say CN with strong personal(1)
Rheios
reservations about harming certain people or things that he'll break if properly motivated. Or if he's in a hurry. Or if square.(2)
jesusisherelookbusy
http://img01.deviantart.net/5542/i/2009/311/7/2/warhammer_40k_alignment_chart_by_sputnik127.jpg
xVancha
You know it's wrong when "chaos" is listed under neutral evil. :)
Idsertian
Implying the Imperium is anything but lawful and good? I smell heresy.
DelaysAction
There is no good in the Warhammer universe.
FajitaPrinceofAllMexicans
How can Necrons be called lawful evil, or any when we have no idea what they do besides be zombies..
51rebaS
Necrons were retconned into being a Space Egyptian robot empire with characters and distinct factions rather than being generic Terminators.
RaynWisp
This may be the first one of these I don't disagree with...
jackmiton
Well, you're wrong then. Aliens are neutral and mal is chaotic.
RaynWisp
"Your opinion is wrong" - this douche
DickChaneyDeleted
Actually the joker is chaotic neutral. He has no intent for evil. Just lost in his world of insanity
DickChaneyDeleted
Demons are chaotic evil. They want to destroy and brjng things to ruin for the sake of harming others
Dinflame
But... This is the one that's always reposted on here...
Maldraek
There's one for Discworld that's pretty good. I'd link it if I knew where it was.
Butane9000
It's been reposted so much and the same arguments almost every time.
RoadTripped
I had actually never seen this one, and was surprised I actually agreed w about 75% of it
Unithralith
I'm in agreement with everything but Picard; he's DEFINITELY Lawful Good. Judge Dredd is a better example of Lawful Neutral.
Maldraek
This.
RaynWisp
70ss-era Superman is a good example too
PizzaDogYouHaveFailedThisCity
Honestly I've always seen Supes as neutral good.
Dysseus
lawful doesn't mean follows the law. It means they stick to a code. Picard became an armed insurrectionist to follow his moral code.
LadyDirewolf
Swap Superman and Picard then I agree.
NotMac
I agree with poori, and also need to point out that V is very CN. It's about getting to the land of Do As You Please, not the Land of Take
NotMac
What You Want.
mostlydrawing
Sparrow's "crime" was that he released a bunch of slaves instead of delivering them. That puts him more in good than neutral, imo.
Unithralith
Chaotic Neutral is most concerned with personal freedom. Jack Sparrow is definitely all about being a free spirit and his own man.
Unithralith
I also love the line "whose side is he on, anyway?" "At the moment...?" That's a very Chaotic Neutral sentiment.
Mirawatts
Being neutral means you do both good and bad.
KotMroku
Yeah he isin't afraid of actually stealing and being a pirate but overall he's just a decent human being, even if he doesn't want to be one.
DrFartstheTRex
I like these charts, but most well written characters are layered enough that they don't really fit neatly into any one category. this 1 gud
LordVulpix
All Characters and people fit into 1 of these categories. It's a general nature of the person not every single action. Most people are N/NG.
FragrantViolation
Yeah I'm more a CN guy myself
DrFartstheTRex
Ran out of character space.
nycterelis
Gud
Armored0Titan0
Hell, I remember someone did one of these with just Batman.
GoddamnitMisterNoodle
https://writingiseasier.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/batman-alignment-chart.jpg
DrFartstheTRex
That's my point. People change over time or depending on the situation.
squelcheswetly
I don't think I agree with Picard being lawful neutral. That whole crew is pretty goodie goodie.
Acera
I'd put him on the Neutral Good side
AnythingMuchShorter
I would agree, Picard is very much on the side of good, and not always lawful about it.
LordVulpix
That and Picard has broken the prime directive a few times and bent the rules. He's a better LG then Superman. Superman is NG at best.
AnythingMuchShorter
Superman is definitely Lawful Good isn't he? The only times he does something bad is because it's lawfully good. Like killing people in war.
Chank
Killing people in war is not 'good'. I didn't think Supes was a killer, but if so it would deff be C Evil doers, a distinction worth making.
LordVulpix
Superman isn't, he'll break the laws if it's required to do good for the people. Like trespassing on private property to stop a Lex Luthor.
AnythingMuchShorter
It seems like if you're not talking about a particular universe any comic book character has done or not done everything. Like the bible.
PhantomDraco
Lawful good doesn't necessarily mean following all laws, it means adhering to a set of strict good rules. Think Paladins
AuBoss
Since when is killing people in war lawful good?
Drewstopher13
WW2?
Chank
When they're chaotic evil.
DoctorRickSanchez
I'd posit that Xenomorphs are True Neutral. Much like wasps, they're total dicks, but naturally so with no cognition of morality.
aerodynamit3
I was also thinking this.
squelcheswetly
I think the drones themselves are maybe neutral, but they obey the queen, who's an evil bitch.
Setakka
Neutral Hungry
thraxer
They do kill one of their own to escape a cell in one of the movies,that's not really neutral and indicates reflexion
CziltangBrone
Hive mind super organism.
confanity
YES. Anything not sentient is TN by definition.
jacko92577
Interesting thought. I'd counter that since their "neutral" involves eating my face, they still rightfully fall under neutral evil
delpharseven
Yes, animals, vicious predators or not, tend be be true neutral.
CountVorkosigan
But the Xenomorphs seem to be slightly smarter than normal animals. I'd posit they're Intelligence 3 aberrations, which WOULD be NutralEvil.
delpharseven
I guess it depends on which part of the franchise you look at. They seem to be getting smarter as time goes on.
TheRuggedProfessorNeckbeard
I think the Queen is more intelligent. Int score of at least 3. I see what you are saying though. Int scores of 2 or less in ALI: N or N/A
CKnowles
In DnD5e, they're technically 'unaligned', along with all other unthinking beasts.
nstanley69
They demonstrate complex problem solving skills as well as communication with not only their own species but also humans.
CKnowles
So do dogs and crows. Are *they* evil? Lawful?
nstanley69
No, but it demonstrates they are not "mindless". Also, dogs wouldn't be on their level either. Crows maybe.
CKnowles
Yeah, if you want to have a philosophical/ethical discussion on the treatment of animals, go ahead, but if you're trying to role play...
ShouTuckersGhost
They eat people. I'm comfortable calling that evil
denigreur
Do you eat beef ? Because that makes you evil by that logic
ShouTuckersGhost
The difference is that I'm not eating a sentient being
denigreur
The notion of sentient being is relative to us. Pork is a good example, they're among the most intelligent mammals and we still eat them.
pogpro5000
Sharks fail to make this distinction...must be evil.
ShouTuckersGhost
Sharks are actually adorable. Check out /r/tsunderesharks, which is a thing that exists for some reason
pogpro5000
So do bears, that doesn't make them evil. A moral compass delegates good/evil/neutrality...not something's dietary table
ShouTuckersGhost
I was always under the impression that the Xenomorphs were intelligent enough to understand, on some level, what they were doing
pogpro5000
No more intelligent than a raccoon, being smart enough to open your garbage bin and "vandalize" your lawn with trash. Not evil. Survival.
imgur1stTheory
Are you saying that bears aren't evil? Bears are one of the top threats that face the nation.
pogpro5000
Yes, and I defer to the 'moral compass' bit of my statement
StrikeOotori
Yea, I do admire their purity.
HayabusaZeroZ
Keep your magazines away from me.
Aerolfoz
This is a D&D system, and if the Xenomorph was a monster (Beast? Animal? I know there is a difference, but not what) it would be Evil?
CKnowles
Not evil; unaligned. They'll eat the necromancer just as soon as the cleric.
Aerolfoz
I suspect given the context of the story, how it is told and all that, they would be evil however, especially since they have a Queen.
CKnowles
Ants have a queen
Aerolfoz
Ants are an enemy in D&D? :P
Aerolfoz
Just think about it, meeting a similar creature... heck even if the whole Alien movie was a D&D campaign similar to Darths&Droids take.
Aerolfoz
Pretty sure that monster would have been Evil if anyone cared to look for the alignment.
CraigDillingerIsImaginary
I would posit that they are closer to a virus and thus should probably not be on this scale since there is no recognition of morality
pantbulge
Classified as "fictional endoparasitoid extraterrestrial arthopodal species"
Rheios
Which by 3.5 rules would make them TN.Having no cognition doesn't free something from alignment when the planes are literally formed from(1)
Rheios
the conflict of concepts form the Outer Planes and the conflict of elements from the Inner Planes(2)
Rheios
Granted it starts getting complex because the material planes are necessary for the existence of the outer planes, but the outer planes'(3)
Rheios
struggles effect and represent the material plane's ideological composition. Please review Planescape and the power of Belief for more(4)
SpudsArUs
But they kill everything they meet.
replikant
Didn't kill the cat, though. At least, in the first movie. sequels/games changed them up a bit, but the original alien was just an animal.
SCOTTSTERLINGthemanthemythandthelegend
Not because they're morally evil though. It's just the nature of the beast.
Yavin1v
they kill to reproduce or protect themselves. they just do it on a much larger scale that say lions or something
Lyrian
How is that no equally fair to everything? :D
imgur1stTheory
They usually avoid fighting other xenomorphs.
ThePsychicZombie
Just because they're evil to everyone doesn't mean they aren't evil
SpudsArUs
Totally equally fair. But everyone dies, so I'd cash that neutral evil.
TalonDudeguy
They hate everyone equally
ShouTuckersGhost
That's called evil. Thanos wants to kill everything too, and we know he's evil
TalonDudeguy
Well he has a sense of morals, he knows what he's doing and continues to do so. The Aliens have no morals, they kill to keep themselves saf
TalonDudeguy
*safe